Kanzenshuu

If Goku hadn't increased his power for a second time in response to Frost, aura and everything, I might be inclined to agree. A clear superior is obvious but the discrepancy wasn't so pronounced that Frost couldn't weather attacks and keep Goku on his toes somewhat. By the time Frost was challenged...

Noted. I think what also helps your rationale is that Kaioshin's shock at Base Vegeta's strength could have been attributed to how powerful the Saiyans were in their Base forms, knowing full well that they can amplify it much further than Super Saiyan. So, it doesn't necessarily mean that Kaioshin ...

Frost only comparable to Semi or Perfect Cell? I'm not so sure. It's true he couldn't inflict any damage against SSJ Goku but it's also clear from his expressions and actions that the Saiyan was taking the fight seriously throughout with an aura to boot. Given that this is Goku following a training...

Shin can be very powerful and a cause for concern without being stronger than Piccolo. I dont see the disconnect or why any of what happened has to mean he’s Piccolo’s superior. Especially since AT went out of his way to show that a large portion of Shin’s intimidating aura, especially in regards t...

Shin can be very powerful and a cause for concern without being stronger than Piccolo. I dont see the disconnect or why any of what happened has to mean he’s Piccolo’s superior. Especially since AT went out of his way to show that a large portion of Shin’s intimidating aura, especially in regards to...

re: Shin/Piccolo's world tournament interactions Piccolo never says Shin is too strong. He says to Goku "He is... a different order of being." Shortly after being weirded out by his presence, and shortly before asking Shin if he's the great Lord of World's. I don't get how his statement to...

Back to the Kaioshin: I actually have to cop to the distinct possibility that it is just a hierarchical thing with Piccolo having gone back one more time. I’d remembered the Japanese wrong. It’s “ちがすぎる... 次元は...” (“He’s on a whole different ... plane/dimension.”) Could refer to strength, but it’s (...

Re: piccolo in the ROSAT Piccolo could have gotten a gigantic jump from the time chamber, and still be below 2nd form cell. There was a huge gap between him and android 16. And an even bigger gap between 16 and 2nd form cell. Considering Piccolo had no involvement or utility in the cell games, there...

Re: The Kaioshin (just went back and checked): 1) He never says or indicates he’s afraid of Pui-Pui. He has three lines between his appearance and death: one being shocked at the Saiyans deciding to fight alone (fair enough), one emphasizing that they shouldn’t let their guards down, since Bobbidi ...

Did some looking over the Buu saga in regards to Kaioshin. The line about defeating Freeza in a single blow was said by Kaioshin about the past Lord of Lords that were killed by Buu. Nothing indicating that level of power is retained by himself. Then, Kaioshin is deeply concerned about Pui-Pui, and ...

I think they’re clearly talking about Goku before SSJG. If anybody is saying Goku still hasn’t surpassed Freeza they’re clearly ignoring RoF. Btw, Beerus’ line isn’t an anime thing. It’s on all three versions of the story. In the manga version I read, Beerus doesn't say anything about Goku's base. ...

The thing that bothers me about the whole Shin comparison is that this guy may not be physically the strongest but his psychic abilities are clearly impressive enough. We see how he's able to immobilise SSJ2 Gohan, if only just, and destroy a ki projectile from Buu intended to kill the young Saiyan...

I meant that it’s just in the movie, which was scripted by Toriyama. Ok. I just rewatched the BoG scene with Beerus inspecting Goku. It seems obvious the point of it is to convey that SSJ is the thing that would allow Goku to beat Freeza. Assuming AT is the writer, there's no point to including tha...

GreatSaiyaman123 raises the generally accepted points about the base Saiyans. Most of the confidence at the tournament was from Vegeta. #18 was motivated to enter by the prospect of winning money and likely wasn't too concerned about how she measures up to the Saiyans as long as she got paid. About...

I did interpret it as a statement on their relative power levels. I mean, that's how it came across to me. Kaioshin isn't all that strong to begin with so it was never a huge stretch imo. Kaioshin is considerably stronger when they first meet, unless you subscribe to the base Saiyans being stronger...

It’s in the BoG script. The manga adapts the line into a post-Super Saiyan 2 quip, so it’s less explicit, but the intent is the same. For the questions: 1) That’s a problem no matter how you slice it, even if the base Saiyans have surpassed Freeza—unless you assume they’ve also surpassed Piccolo (w...

Very interesting debate. I'm now on the fence about the base saiyans having surpassed namek freeza where before i was pretty firmly in the “yes and by far” camp. Could someone cite exactly where AT mentioned goku not having surpassed freeza again? And i just peeked at the manga and Beerus doesnt sa...

Beerus says Goku can’t beat Freeza as he is (i.e. in base form) in the movie and the anime and asks him to transform in the BoGs movie and DBS. The manga rushes over it, but the statement is still there after Goku goes SSJ. In the anime he even says SSJ Goku isn’t beating anyone stronger than Freez...

Very interesting debate. I'm now on the fence about the base saiyans having surpassed namek freeza where before i was pretty firmly in the “yes and by far” camp. Could someone cite exactly where AT mentioned goku not having surpassed freeza again? And i just peeked at the manga and Beerus doesnt say...

The idea of sensible realistic projections for the humans might sound good but it's hindered by the reality that the humans did rapidly progress in their growth as fighters throughout the Saiyan and Freeza arcs. Krillin transitioned from an earthbound power level of 206 to 75,000 by the time the cl...