Is Kanzenshuu Becoming Toxic?

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Is Kanzenshuu Becoming Toxic?

Postby Khin » Fri Apr 07, 2017 11:40 am

Lately, I’ve seen a few people who has said how the forum is becoming toxic/quality of discussions going downhill. Most notably, KaiserNeko posted on Super episode #84 discussion thread on how the responses of some folks there makes him never want to come back. And just recently, there is a new member who questioned the irrationality and toxicity of the forum since from what he heard, this place is supposed to be factual and analytical.

What do think? Did the forum reached a state worse than the Resurrection F era? Or is it still your good ol’ Kanzenshuu? If you don’t think that the forum is going downhill, then what do you think about the forum currently, is it better/worse than before?

Kanzenshuu has a good reputation throughout the Dragon Ball community, so it would suck if this place will turn like your typical toxic Dragon Ball forum, and disappoint newcomers who expected better. So in this thread, I hope we can talk on what’s your issue(s) with the forum currently, which thread(s)/sub-section(s) you have issues with, what type of discussions do you want to see more or less in the forum, etc. Maybe, this thread will bring attention to those supposedly toxic members and will try to change themselves.

Also, please note that this is not meant to be a personal attack to other members, and hopefully, I’m not offending any moderators.
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Re: Is Kanzenshuu Becoming Toxic?

Postby Doctor. » Fri Apr 07, 2017 12:11 pm

I don't think there's any kind of discussion to be had about what kind of toxicity there is on the forum, and what can be done to stop it, without pointing to certain members or attitudes as examples. There won't be any change if people are too afraid of pointing to what's the problem; (most) people here are adults, they can take a bit of criticism.

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Re: Is Kanzenshuu Becoming Toxic?

Postby VegettoEX » Fri Apr 07, 2017 12:29 pm

People say and think similar things any time a new product comes out. I'm guilty of it, too. It perhaps seems more extended now that Super is an on-going product as opposed to a one-off thing. It generally fades. That being said, I've also gone on record as stating and analyzing how I think strength debates are the single most toxic and damaging thing to fandom.

(Equally, people like to think they remember some "good old days" when everything was different. It never really was.)

That all being said, the last thing we want is a perception of toxicity. The best thing you can do? If you see something, report it. We can't read every single post, and rely on the community a bit. Set a good example, represent what you think the community should be, and just be awesome.
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Re: Is Kanzenshuu Becoming Toxic?

Postby Asura » Fri Apr 07, 2017 6:28 pm

No. People are majorly overreacting on every side. Sometimes arguments get heated, and sometimes there are a lot more arguments than other times depending on whatever ridiculous fanbase-splitting decision Super makes. To imply that what we have here is toxic is a joke in and of itself. Go anywhere else on the internet, any other place that discusses Dragon Ball, and it is nowhere near the etiquette that's displayed here.

It's just a discussion forum. People come here to discuss and argue. Unless someone is personally attacking you, try not to read too far into it.

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Re: Is Kanzenshuu Becoming Toxic?

Postby TheMikado » Fri Apr 07, 2017 7:22 pm

Since I'm sure some members feel this way about me I feel obliged to give my perspective. As was pointed it Super is a new ongoing product. Further, despite what some may claim Super IS DIFFERENT than Z. There is a 20 year gap between the old and current series with an arguable global anime explosion which hit mainstream which separates them. Super in my opinion follows more of the format and style of something like One Piece or even Naruto as a more modern take on the DB franchise.

Most likely if you are watching Super then you watched and enjoyed at least some part of Z. Billing as a successor you will inevitably compare the two. I believe what we are seeing is two fold.

1) People reaching their breaking points at different points. For my breaking point came early during the Champa arc when I really realized Super isn't Z. This could hit different people and different times depending on what they watch the show for. One person or even a small group of people are not the sole source of contention. You have new people expressing their distaste everyday. That's just how it works being a new ongoing product which is different than the previous product.

2) People coming into the show at different times. This is self explanatory. People are coming to different points in the series that we've long gotten past and asking questions. It's literally a new thread asking how strong Base Goku is every other week.

So to recap, Super is a new, different, and ongoing entry of the DB series. Everyone is experiencing and processing it differently. This causes confusion, questions and parts of the fan base are at different points on working through things. Maybe they weren't put off by a Trunks vs SSB Vegeta, but Krillin vs SSB Goku was too much. Who knows. As I've said before, I'm long past the point of having high expectations and I accept Super for what it is. I don't even reply in the Super power thread much anymore because it's pointless at this point. The only thing I will really argue is when a criticism is generated and the immediate response is to claim it was always this bad. Even if this were true, we've have 20 years to discuss the merits of the previous series. We're discussing Super not Z, and that creates an air of disagreements between posters.

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Re: Is Kanzenshuu Becoming Toxic?

Postby Freeza9000 » Fri Apr 07, 2017 10:04 pm

Not necessarily toxic, though there are times it can be, but overall, debates here can be quite heated at times. Most of it comes down to discussions regarding the powerscaling or the overall writing of Dragon Ball Super. Then again, what's the point of a forum if people are just gonna echo the same opinion over and over again? Where's the fun in that? This is a place where we exchange different views, debate and argue, not some sort of echochamber.

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Re: Is Kanzenshuu Becoming Toxic?

Postby The gr » Fri Apr 07, 2017 11:35 pm

VegettoEX wrote:People say and think similar things any time a new product comes out. I'm guilty of it, too. It perhaps seems more extended now that Super is an on-going product as opposed to a one-off thing. It generally fades. That being said, I've also gone on record as stating and analyzing how I think strength debates are the single most toxic and damaging thing to fandom.

(Equally, people like to think they remember some "good old days" when everything was different. It never really was.)

That all being said, the last thing we want is a perception of toxicity. The best thing you can do? If you see something, report it. We can't read every single post, and rely on the community a bit. Set a good example, represent what you think the community should be, and just be awesome.
I really don't think strength debate is the most toxic part of this fanbases, speaking of which Mike what are your thoughts on this video https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wVt3RA6bvRM, since is a response to one of your podcast
    regarding this,the community didn't got that bad in comparison to others, Doctor basically told what I wanted to say

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    Re: Is Kanzenshuu Becoming Toxic?

    Postby Chuquita » Sat Apr 08, 2017 12:02 am

    Maybe it's just going on in threads I don't visit, the toxicity. I don't see much of it in the threads I frequent. In fact I feel more at ease debating or complaining about Super here at Kanzenshuu than anywhere else.
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    Re: Is Kanzenshuu Becoming Toxic?

    Postby Bansho64 » Sat Apr 08, 2017 12:16 am

    Honestly, outside of certain parts of the Super subforum, no. And I'm struggling to even say that's a big issue. I think things are being blown outta proportion. Big time. I really ain't seeing how this how forum is apparently turning "toxic" because a select handful or so people are pissing people off. They ain't no representation of everybody here. Not to mention that, in the some of the past stuff I've read here, there's been much worse crap than some of the stuff I see raising people's britches now.

    Kanzenshuu is fine. It really ain't that big a deal, should you ask me.

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    Re: Is Kanzenshuu Becoming Toxic?

    Postby Kamiccolo9 » Sat Apr 08, 2017 12:46 am

    The weekly Super threads have essentially become mini-Resurrection F threads, which absolutely was toxic. Aside from that, I don't really see it spilling over all that much, aside from the omnipresent Battle Power discussions that seem to inevitably end up taking over every thread once they reach their quota of non-Battle Power posts.

    Aside from that, people need to just be told every now and then to calm the fuck down and that they are making asses of themselves over a cartoon. I do feel that this influx of users since Movie 15 have been somewhat younger than the average member was prior to that, and that might have something to do with it. I could be totally wrong, though; it's not like general assholery is limited to high-schoolers, after all.
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    Re: Is Kanzenshuu Becoming Toxic?

    Postby Cipher » Sat Apr 08, 2017 1:09 am

    While some silly complaints, even a lot of them, are inevitable when the subject of conversation is an ongoing children's cartoon, especially one of fluctuating quality—and that's new territory for Kanzenshuu/Daizex, whereas in the past the subject of conversation was at least a children's series that was more than twenty years old and long-finished—it's still one of the best-managed and most consistently pleasant message boards I've ever seen. Which is shocking, considering the material, and a real testament to how Mike and the rest of the team run the place.

    Just as it'd be best for those making an ass of themselves over the new series to be able to take a step back and remind themselves what kind of material they're discussing, it's also good for more level-headed/older members to remind themselves that this is just a board for a kids' series we're all fond of—that you can step out of episode discussion threads, that you aren't obligated to click on every topic, that there's still plenty of good conversation to be found here, or that, when there isn't and the well has run dry, it's okay to just wait for its inevitable and historically quick return. I say this all as someone who occasionally delights in poking fun at the more reactionary elements of the fanbase. As much as I think there are entire fandom trends that are ripe for light-hearted mockery, I've never once read something here that's made me genuinely frustrated or diminished my interest in the series. Well, almost never. Definitely nothing I'd pin on anything related to the influx of users that came with the new material.

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    Re: Is Kanzenshuu Becoming Toxic?

    Postby Jinzoningen MULE » Sat Apr 08, 2017 1:26 am

    I don't think that the community as a whole is toxic, no. However, there are definitely certain users that, while not doing anything that warrants reporting, set a very obnoxious tone. The type that enjoy the sound of their own voice (keyboard?) too much, while totally neglecting to acknowledge anyone or anything that may contradict them, or even someone coming from a different perspective. The unwillingness or inability to genuinely discuss, it's a terrible issue, and it's one that's impossible to fix because it's an anonymity problem, an internet problem, far beyond the scope of this forum's ability to correct. I'm the first to admit that when I first started participating here, that's exactly how I acted, since I was going through my last spurt of teenage aggression at the time. When I realized it was problematic, I made my real name, general location, and interests public for a little while to dissuade me from tarnishing myself, but that's not exactly something I'd advocate for everyone doing.

    Another, albeit lesser problem is regurgitation. I don't think I need to expand on that, it's another thing that doesn't warrant reporting, makes the community more obnoxious, but is an uncorrectable issue regardless.


    Though at the end of the day, talking about this is a waste of time. The only way to improve the community is to essentially "punish" toxic users by boycotting them, and reward good discussion by participating in a polite and productive way. At least that's what I've taken to doing (although my politeness could use some work).
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    Re: Is Kanzenshuu Becoming Toxic?

    Postby Cipher » Sat Apr 08, 2017 1:38 am

    Jinzoningen MULE wrote:Though at the end of the day, talking about this is a waste of time. The only way to improve the community is to essentially "punish" toxic users by boycotting them, and reward good discussion by participating in a polite and productive way. At least that's what I've taken to doing (although my politeness could use some work).

    This is also true, and I should probably lead by example more often than I do. I have to remind myself from time to time that the average user age here has gotten younger since the new material started, and that really is something that should be a factor in determining how flippant I'm willing to get on these boards. Younger users are impressionable and cotton onto community tones and group-think fairly quickly. If the conversations going on around them are of a certain standard, slowly but surely they're going to level out to meet it, whether for better or worse.

    Freeza9000 wrote:Not necessarily toxic, though there are times it can be, but overall, debates here can be quite heated at times.

    I'd like to point out that it's a small failure of this post that it doesn't link to the thread in which Sean Schemmel was run off the board by people being dicks to him.

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    Re: Is Kanzenshuu Becoming Toxic?

    Postby Freeza9000 » Sat Apr 08, 2017 2:05 am

    Cipher wrote:
    Freeza9000 wrote:Not necessarily toxic, though there are times it can be, but overall, debates here can be quite heated at times.

    I'd like to point out that it's a small failure of this post that it doesn't link to the thread in which Sean Schemmel was run off the board by people being dicks to him.

    Can you please link me the thread?

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    Re: Is Kanzenshuu Becoming Toxic?

    Postby Cipher » Sat Apr 08, 2017 2:11 am

    Freeza9000 wrote:Can you please link me the thread?

    I won't. It's ancient history that's long been addressed and was never representative of the board. To be honest, I shouldn't have brought it up. I just wanted to point out that we haven't yet out-toxiced ourselves. The internet is always going to give rise to dumb incidents and arguments.

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    Re: Is Kanzenshuu Becoming Toxic?

    Postby RandomGuy96 » Sat Apr 08, 2017 2:15 am

    I think there's a difference between "toxicity" and "people not liking what I like". People having a problem with Super episode #84 for whatever reason is the latter. A now-banned member running a dub voice actor off the forum by being a dick is an example of the former.
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    Re: Is Kanzenshuu Becoming Toxic?

    Postby Freeza9000 » Sat Apr 08, 2017 2:16 am

    Cipher wrote:The internet is always going to give rise to dumb incidents and arguments.

    Internet drama can be quite entertaining at times though.

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    Re: Is Kanzenshuu Becoming Toxic?

    Postby Khin » Sat Apr 08, 2017 3:54 am

    I do agree that the other sub-sections are just fine and still pretty much the same as it has always been, and the “problem” are mostly just in the Super sub-section. Which isn’t surprising considering the series brought a lot of fans here (myself included), so naturally most posts there are generally from new users. The series certainly brought great members here who makes awesome posts and are willing to have civil discussion, but it also brought members who seem to treat this place like a chat room and hardly seem to put any effort in there contributions, albeit members like that aren’t bad as toxic members, but still.

    Anyway, I feel like “heated discussions” shouldn’t exist in the first place. It’s one thing to have a heated discussion when it comes to things like politics, but fighting and getting angry in discussions about trivial stuff (like, let’s say power levels) in a series aimed at kids sounds silly to me. It’s understandable when a certain post ruins your buzz and you become eager to express your extreme disagreement about it, but is there really any need to have a fight over it, especially when the topic you’re having a heated discussion with is an entirely subjective topic? It would probably be way more pleasant to read -- not just for the person you’re responding to, but also the people who just reads your post -- if you express your disagreement in a friendly and chill way.

    I don’t really understand why subjective things causes people to have a heated discussion to the point where certain people starts accusing folks who likes Super that they simply tolerates and love the series because Toriyama’s is involved in it. And with certain threads where whole whole posts basically reeks of: “I don’t like X, so how is it possible that people can like X?”

    In regards to strength debates, sure, there’s nothing wrong if you dislike an episode because of a strength inconsistency, but when it’s something that happened in the episode for a few seconds and it ends up taking over the whole thread (or even the whole sub-section), then I fully understand why people take issue and become annoyed with it. Last week, I was really excited after watching episode #84 to talk and see posts about certain aspects in the episode like character relationships and fighting skills, only to find 10+ pages worth of strength-related responses that’s not even phrased in a pleasant way.

    As you might already know, I spent most of my posts in this forum on strength discussions, and I used to defend power level discussions from people who dislikes and gets annoyed with it, but last week really made me realize and fully understand why many people dislikes these things. Upon reading some of the posts in the thread, I realized how silly power level discussions can be when taken too seriously. But for the record, I don’t think they are really a bad thing, it just depends on the people who discuss them and how they are being discussed.

    I would imagine it would probably be a bit better if discussions about power levels was in the thread that is actually dedicated to power level discussions, but when it takes over the entire episode discussion thread and even almost the entire forum, It’s understandable that some people take issue with it, especially if there’s lots of interesting things to talk about the episode than just a scene that happened for a few seconds. Some folks even provided some plausible explanations for why they think there’s nothing wrong with the scene, but most of it was seemingly ignored, and some people doesn’t seem to have the slightest bit of interest to discuss with those and think that maybe that’s actually quite a reasonable interpretation.

    Jinzoningen MULE wrote:Though at the end of the day, talking about this is a waste of time. The only way to improve the community is to essentially "punish" toxic users by boycotting them, and reward good discussion by participating in a polite and productive way. At least that's what I've taken to doing (although my politeness could use some work).

    The reason I created this thread is not try to improve the community as whole, rather, I feel like having a thread specifically talking about these type of things might bring attention to some members who you or I think is a problem in the community, hoping that maybe they start looking back at themselves and try to improve the overall quality of their post and attitude.

    Speaking from experience, I was quite obnoxious and irrational before and when I just first joined here, but reading old threads that is similar to this made me want to change myself and I think I become a bit better overtime. It wouldn’t certainly happen to everyone, but at least maybe it can also happen to some people, too!

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    Re: Is Kanzenshuu Becoming Toxic?

    Postby BlazingFiddlesticks » Sat Apr 08, 2017 10:01 am

    One more thing that VegettoEX has noticed in the past: Kanzenshuu, at least since becoming Kanzenshuu, has never had a troll problem. That alone should give a decent bill of health right away.

    TheMikado wrote:1) People reaching their breaking points at different points. For my breaking point came early during the Champa arc when I really realized Super isn't Z. This could hit different people and different times depending on what they watch the show for. One person or even a small group of people are not the sole source of contention. You have new people expressing their distaste everyday. That's just how it works being a new ongoing product which is different than the previous product.


    This is a great point, too. It is easy for one to assume that many people consider the series in the same ways they do, and with Super in particular, depending on the topic, their temperament, or just where they are on that particular day, disagreement (particularly dismissal. "Well if you haven't dropped Super after X episodes...") might ring louder than it means to.

    But that too just bears repeating that Dragon Ball is inconsistent and everyone here ultimately enjoys it enough to post.
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    Re: Is Kanzenshuu Becoming Toxic?

    Postby Kaboom » Sat Apr 08, 2017 10:48 am

    If y'all think Kanzenshuu's community is even anywhere close to being "toxic," then... you haven't been to many other Dragon Ball forums. It'd be in poor taste to name any specific names, but the raw bile and vitriol within some other places I've visited make even the worst conversations here look like a classy black-tie dinner party by comparison.
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