Episode #0418 (01 January 2017)

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Episode #0418 (01 January 2017)

Postby VegettoEX » Tue Jan 03, 2017 4:00 pm

Episode #0418 (download MP3) (rss feed) (subscribe in iTunes) (YouTube version) (SoundCloud version)
146:46; 96 kbps, mono; 101 MB

Episode #0418! Mike, Chris, Scott, and Meri review the "Future Trunks arc" of the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series. As the series transitions from multiple movie retellings to a fun tournament diversion and now to a dark, serious setting, does it find an identity of its own? What value is there in torturing Trunks again, and do the end results give us an emotional payoff? What does the escalating scale of godly destruction bring to the table? Tune in for a discussion filled with our thoughts and your opinions as we look ahead to the "Universe Survival arc" this year!

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00:13 - Introduction (what's on deck, etc.)
03:30 - News/Topic (reivew of the Future Trunks arc from the "Dragon Ball Super" television series)
1:41:50 - Episode wrap-up and website project teases

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Happy 2017!
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Re: Episode #0418 (01 January 2017)

Postby Luso Saiyan » Wed Jan 04, 2017 7:40 am

Good episode. Not sure I follow the logic of having to be able to hum a music theme in order to consider it great or memorable.

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Re: Episode #0418 (01 January 2017)

Postby VegettoEX » Wed Jan 04, 2017 9:11 am

I don't see how that doesn't make sense. If you can't remember how a tune goes, you don't remember the tune. That doesn't mean you can't like it, and doesn't mean you can't think it added something in the moment, but it sure means it isn't memorable in any way.
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Re: Episode #0418 (01 January 2017)

Postby Ajay » Wed Jan 04, 2017 9:18 am

VegettoEX wrote:I don't see how that doesn't make sense. If you can't remember how a tune goes, you don't remember the tune. That doesn't mean you can't like it, and doesn't mean you can't think it added something in the moment, but it sure means it isn't memorable in any way.


I do agree, but at the same time, I feel like it's a touch unfair to use that argument this early on. I thoroughly enjoyed Kikuchi when I first heard his work, but I couldn't hum his work for a long time, and the CDs definitely helped that.

I'm not a huge fan of Sumitomo, but I can hum a fair few tracks, and I'm sure that'll increase as time goes on. We'll see, I guess. I can hum a lot of his Battle of Gods movie stuff, but I don't remember anything from Resurrection 'F'. Whether Super will go the same way, time will tell.
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Re: Episode #0418 (01 January 2017)

Postby Doctor. » Wed Jan 04, 2017 9:20 am

Ajay wrote:I'm not a huge fan of Sumitomo, but I can hum a fair few tracks,


So can I, for better or for worse.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIYSZOtHU1Y

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Re: Episode #0418 (01 January 2017)

Postby VegettoEX » Wed Jan 04, 2017 9:21 am

I do agree with your agreement and simultaneous disagreement, but we're also talking about hosts on the show here that have rewatched and torn apart these episodes multiple times over. This stuff is ingrained in our very sense of being. If we still can't hum a single tune (other than the episode preview music...?), I think that's saying something.

I... don't entirely know what it says, but it says something!

(Maybe it says we're totally incompetent. That's certainly possible.)
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Re: Episode #0418 (01 January 2017)

Postby Luso Saiyan » Wed Jan 04, 2017 10:26 am

VegettoEX wrote:I don't see how that doesn't make sense. If you can't remember how a tune goes, you don't remember the tune.


I'm not talking about memory, I'm talking about being able to hum. Not every music is "hummable", that doesn't make it forgettable. The title card tune is "hummable" (at least some people can hum it easily) but that can easily be explained due to the cyclical and repeated nature of its placement, being short and having a more melodic beat. That doesn't make it memorable. Or it does, if you want to take things strictly literal. But there's a connotation of worth (or lack thereof) that goes with terms like "memorable" and "forgettable". I believe that was his point in the podcast.

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Re: Episode #0418 (01 January 2017)

Postby Vegard Aune » Wed Jan 04, 2017 1:24 pm

Listening to this now and just got to the part about Sumitomo. I can think of at least one pretty memorable track (in a good way) he's done, though it's been part of the soundtrack since pretty much the beginning and was not introduced for this arc; The choir-track that played at the end of episode 66 when Trunks seemingly defeated Zamasu (Oh how nice it would have been if he actually did, sparing us of the abomination that was episode 67...) is in my mind a really effective and powerful piece of music, and whether it be here or when Goku pretty much pushed Beerus back into space in episode 14, it just really elevates the moment for me. Obviously I can't demonstrate right now that I can hum this track as this is a forum post but just take my word for it, I'm humming the track as I'm writing this.

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Re: Episode #0418 (01 January 2017)

Postby JacobYBM » Wed Jan 04, 2017 4:39 pm

Pocket Monster XY was mentioned, but it wasn't mentioned that Tomioka Atsuhiro wrote most of the scripts of the Future Trunks arc right after having written the scripts [and being the head writer of] the animated series version of Pocket Monster XY. That's a nice little thing to think about.

Regarding the animation discussion, the production schedule has been terrible for the entire series thanks to the early start date, but another big problem has been the lack of good animators. Tate Naoki and Karasawa Yuu'ichi are basically the only two good animators willing to work on the series regularly. Shida Naotoshi has done two fight scenes (and is apparently getting ready to work on another part of the series), but those scenes have still been very rushed. The normal production schedule for an episode should typically allow for six weeks for animation, but because of the character designs being so unfriendly to animators and the number of talented animators willing to work on the series the quality has really been suffering. Even going off of Episode #66's Shida scene being a minute long I definitely don't get the feeling he had very long to work on his cuts. At most I'm thinking he had three weeks (doing two cuts a day), but that's pushing it considering how conservative some of the cuts were.

Still, Episode #66 has nothing to do with the simulcast. There just wasn't any staff available. Shida's been working on One Piece lately, so he's been busy there, and Karasawa and Tate are always rushing just to get their other episodes to meet the broadcast just in time. Tate's best work is still back in Episode #26, in the much maligned Golden Freeza arc. The Champa arc saw Tate further behind schedule than ever before considering how much he is relied upon to do for the production. Hell, even though Ootsuka Ken was brought in for an episode he was brought in so late that his work was completely forgettable.

I'm also glad Chris brought up how great Pocket Monster's animation has been lately. That's the power of a healthy production schedule and having several good animators who have more time and drawings to play with. Iwane Masa'aki began the animation revolution years ago, but XY and now the much improved Sun & Moon have taken that to the next level thanks to regular appearances by Nishiya Yasushi, Oohashi Aito, Fujii Shingo and the one-off appearance by Kameda Yoshimichi in the Sun & Moon Opening.

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Re: Episode #0418 (01 January 2017)

Postby SaiyaSith » Wed Jan 04, 2017 4:59 pm

Everything you could want in a podcast. Great listen! :clap:

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Re: Episode #0418 (01 January 2017)

Postby Captain Awesome » Thu Jan 05, 2017 5:06 am

I'm still listening (as my morning commute is now just a twenty minute walk to work) but it's great to hear everyone's thoughts on the arc (Meri's in particular :)).

I do wish Chris would slow down and dial it back a little; he speaks in these tortured, unwieldy run-on sentences that jump between so many different thoughts and ideas that they border on unintelligible, and I felt the conversation suffered as a result.

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Re: Episode #0418 (01 January 2017)

Postby ArchedThunder » Thu Jan 05, 2017 4:53 pm

I'm surprised that when talking about Vegeta you guys didn't bring up that when Vegeta faced of with Black when they went to the future the second time he said he was going to beat Black and Black asked something like "Do you want revenge for what I did to you?" and Vegeta said he wasn't doing it for his sake, but for Trunks.
JacobYBM wrote: The Champa arc saw Tate further behind schedule than ever before considering how much he is relied upon to do for the production.

Tate only worked on two episodes in the Champa arc and those two episodes 7 weeks apart, he wasn't relied upon heavily in the Champa arc.
JacobYBM wrote: Even going off of Episode #66's Shida scene being a minute long I definitely don't get the feeling he had very long to work on his cuts. At most I'm thinking he had three weeks (doing two cuts a day), but that's pushing it considering how conservative some of the cuts were.

We know for a fact he had at least 7 and a half weeks for his episode 57 stuff, I highly doubt he had less time than that for 66, especially since he said right after 57 that he was already scheduled to work on the show again.

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Re: Episode #0418 (01 January 2017)

Postby nato25 » Thu Jan 05, 2017 10:33 pm

Great review, I pretty much agree on all the points there but I can't get behind Mike's 'okness' with Trunks being given one of the most powerful transformations in the series without an explanation. You mentioned SSJ2 but I don't see any comparisons there apart from them both not being given an official name (at least for some time anyway). SSJ2 was what all the Saiyans were trying to achieve during the Cell arc ever since Goku said he felt there was something more than just SSJ and of course Gohan's 'rage boost' were a running theme throughout the series. SSJ was a legend that came to fruition after much foreshadowing, SSJ3 was achieved by Goku after 7 years of training in the after life. 'Ultimate' Gohan while vague but had something from elder kai, SSG had it's whole 5 saiyan pouring into another saiyan backstory and SSB/SSGSS well that has like one line of dialogue that Super briefly expanded on with the whole ki control thing but that's better than nothing.

Trunks form, zip, nada, nothing. He just got angry and desperate which other characters did countless times over the course of the series. I think a worse offender then that is the spirit bomb sword. How can such a powerful technique just be gifted to someone for the sake of plot convenience, especially when the closest technique to it is so flawed with how open you are during the build up phase. I'm surprisingly OK with the ending, to me all of Trunks gifts in this arc were the worst thing about it. Sure the emotion during that scene was great but my head was heavily weighing it down with "What...the..." and not a good kind of what the either.

Also I know you said you didn't want to get into minutia but I was interested to hear an opinion on the change to the potara earrings given the VegettoEX namesake.

Lastly I would have loved to hear Julian, Herms and Hujio's thoughts on the arc. I don't mind Kerbefer and the TFS crew but to me your opinions are the most educated and respected in the community that's who I listen for in the podcasts. Give us a round 2!

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Re: Episode #0418 (01 January 2017)

Postby Captain Awesome » Fri Jan 06, 2017 12:34 am

nato25 wrote:Lastly I would have loved to hear Julian, Herms and Hujio's thoughts on the arc. I don't mind Kerbefer and the TFS crew but to me your opinions are the most educated and respected in the community that's who I listen for in the podcasts. Give us a round 2!


I'm in the same boat, I do understand that real life intervenes, Julian and Hujio are both family men, and Herms is busy on other planets but I would have loved some pre-recorded off the cuff thoughts from each of them though.

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Re: Episode #0418 (01 January 2017)

Postby VegettoEX » Fri Jan 06, 2017 9:45 am

I totally get where people are coming from in the "I tune in primarily for the staff themselves and want to hear what they have to say"; I'm the same way with other podcasts. While I don't think there's necessarily enough interest on either the production or even listener side for a full-scale "round two" reviewing the arc, I don't have a problem (and might personally enjoy) an abbreviated check-in with the other dudes at some point in the near future.

nato25 wrote:< snip >

All decent points, and you definitely heard me concede on some of them during the discussion. But things like the Namekian Elder's power-up/unlock? Gohan's ultimate power-up from the old Kaioshin? That's... bullshit. Total bullshit! That's absolute stalling-for-time, amounts-to-nothing boosts. Freebies. Hand-outs. I got zero satisfaction from seeing them happen and seeing the result of them, mainly because they ultimately don't result in anything. And maybe it's GOOD they result in nothing, because they're awful!

I really, truly, honestly "believe" and "buy" Trunks' power-up. With all the shit he's going through, with all the rhetoric being spewed at him by gods, with the combination of overwhelming support and overwhelming berating coming from the very heroes he came back in time to recruit? I buy it. He earned that. He 100% deserves that and I 100% believe what I see on screen. That's so much more satisfying to me than some of those other examples, and I think does truly correlate with some of the other major, iconic transformations we've seen in the series.

Same goes with the Genki-Dama-inspired sword. The whole arc we're being shown this group of survivors (children, parents, resistance solders, etc.) that truly believe in Trunks. That's such a logical and fulfilling thing to see come to fruition, and I think it's also what makes their loss at the hands of Zen'o even more devastating.
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Re: Episode #0418 (01 January 2017)

Postby sailorspazz » Fri Jan 06, 2017 4:32 pm

A long episode, which took a few days to get through since I was mainly listening on my commute, but great discussion! I do concur somewhat with the earlier comment that I'm more interested in--and, generally, also agree more with--the thoughts and opinions of the Kanzen-crew as opposed to "outsiders", but at the same time I suppose it's "good for me" to hear the other side of things too (even if I might sometimes roll my eyes :P ). I guess it can't always just be a group of Blacks and Zamasus agreeing with each other and hugging :P Also died of laughter/embarrassment at the inclusion of my silly fangirl tweet...Mike even said the ♥ out loud, oh my god :lol: And I'm glad that my weekly comments on how much I enjoyed having Shinichirou Miki's voice make love to my ears made it so Meri couldn't help but think of me during the Miki discussion.

A few weeks removed from the arc, I still feel that I really, really loved it (and also still really love my new favorite piece of shit Zamasu). I understand why people either outright dislike or are conflicted about the ending, but I personally enjoyed the unexpected gut punch, especially in contrast to the happy shounen power-of-love/friendship supposed ending we got the episode before. But maybe this is also my fangirl bias of being happy that my favorite villain could only be taken out by the most extreme overkill the series has ever had :P

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Re: Episode #0418 (01 January 2017)

Postby nato25 » Sun Jan 08, 2017 7:35 pm

VegettoEX wrote:I totally get where people are coming from in the "I tune in primarily for the staff themselves and want to hear what they have to say"; I'm the same way with other podcasts. While I don't think there's necessarily enough interest on either the production or even listener side for a full-scale "round two" reviewing the arc, I don't have a problem (and might personally enjoy) an abbreviated check-in with the other dudes at some point in the near future.

nato25 wrote:< snip >

All decent points, and you definitely heard me concede on some of them during the discussion. But things like the Namekian Elder's power-up/unlock? Gohan's ultimate power-up from the old Kaioshin? That's... bullshit. Total bullshit! That's absolute stalling-for-time, amounts-to-nothing boosts. Freebies. Hand-outs. I got zero satisfaction from seeing them happen and seeing the result of them, mainly because they ultimately don't result in anything. And maybe it's GOOD they result in nothing, because they're awful!

I really, truly, honestly "believe" and "buy" Trunks' power-up. With all the shit he's going through, with all the rhetoric being spewed at him by gods, with the combination of overwhelming support and overwhelming berating coming from the very heroes he came back in time to recruit? I buy it. He earned that. He 100% deserves that and I 100% believe what I see on screen. That's so much more satisfying to me than some of those other examples, and I think does truly correlate with some of the other major, iconic transformations we've seen in the series.

Same goes with the Genki-Dama-inspired sword. The whole arc we're being shown this group of survivors (children, parents, resistance solders, etc.) that truly believe in Trunks. That's such a logical and fulfilling thing to see come to fruition, and I think it's also what makes their loss at the hands of Zen'o even more devastating.


For sure the 'unlock potential' power ups are among the weakest in the series in terms of relevance and complexity. There's very little build up and the explanations are weak at best, sure the Namek Elder and Old Kai are respected beings but still doesn't give much impact to the transformation itself, and then you have to ask questions well why didn't Old Kai unlock Goku as well? As you said though those powerups prove pretty fruitless, yeah we get some cool scenes from Gohan and Krillin and the Old Kai dance is pretty funny, but I don't think they manage to defeat anyone important with their new found power in both instances for Gohan.

However at least they still got some type of explanation in the series. Trunks transformation comes out of nowhere with no explanation at all, not even a comment from anyone. A big problem for me is why didn't he get the transformation sooner (say when his mum died or when he thought Mai had died) and why hasn't anyone else exhibited the ability to achieve it? The blue god ki aura design was probably a bad choice as that just leads to more unanswered questions. However I understand what you're saying, there's enough motivation and reasons for Trunks to achieve some type of new form sure, I just don't know if this design and lack of build up or explanation was the right way to go about it and it could have been handled much better.

The Genki Dama sword though sorry I still don't buy it. I don't want Dragon Ball to turn into 'we believe we can win so we can' show. Lot's of characters have 'believed they could win' and then miserably fail or die. a lot of them had friends fighting with them and things to protect. The fight against the Saiyans and 'Majin' Vegeta are examples of this but their sacrifices were ultimate for nothing. Just because the survivors want it so badly and believe in Trunks, that's not enough for me. I don't want new techniques born on the spot from the belief in someones heart, I get a lot of Shonen anime are like that but Dragon Ball hasn't been like that at least not in my eyes and I don't want that to become a recurring thing. Again I get where you're coming from with the story thematic standpoint but I have to agree to disagree here.

Thanks for replying to me though, big fan of the site and the podcast it's a true gift to the DBZ community worldwide.

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Re: Episode #0418 (01 January 2017)

Postby VegettoEX » Sun Jan 08, 2017 9:08 pm

nato25 wrote:The Genki Dama sword though sorry I still don't buy it. I don't want Dragon Ball to turn into 'we believe we can win so we can' show. Lot's of characters have 'believed they could win' and then miserably fail or die. a lot of them had friends fighting with them and things to protect. The fight against the Saiyans and 'Majin' Vegeta are examples of this but their sacrifices were ultimate for nothing. Just because the survivors want it so badly and believe in Trunks, that's not enough for me. I don't want new techniques born on the spot from the belief in someones heart, I get a lot of Shonen anime are like that but Dragon Ball hasn't been like that at least not in my eyes and I don't want that to become a recurring thing. Again I get where you're coming from with the story thematic standpoint but I have to agree to disagree here.

Isn't that precisely what happened, though? He thought he could win, everyone gave him their full support and hope, aaaand... they all died. All of them (minus the heroes, of course). Zamasu still won the fight in the end.

(For all the "won the battle but lost the war" talk out of Nakao/Freeza, that's a better description of THIS arc.)

nato25 wrote:Thanks for replying to me though, big fan of the site and the podcast it's a true gift to the DBZ community worldwide.

You're very welcome, and thank you!
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Re: Episode #0418 (01 January 2017)

Postby nato25 » Mon Jan 09, 2017 1:36 am

I don't really consider 'virus sky Zamasu' the final boss of this arc as much as I saw it as an excuse for Goku to hit the Omni King button and set up the next arc with the double Omni King thing. You're right though ultimately, yes, they lost. I give Toriyama and the writing team full credit for leaving us with such a sad ending for the arcs hero, even if I feel a little unsatisfied with it. Poor Trunks, guy can't catch a break.

I have no problem with Trunks getting the win, he deserved it, I just don't like how he accomplished. Fused Zamasu was weakening anyway as he struggled with his immortality, him just getting the power from Goku and Vegeta and slashing him with an energy sword or firing a Final Flash (or hell, one of his own special attacks haha) would have been cool enough. I honestly never cared about the survivors, yeah it was cool humans put up a resistance against a powerful foe but it's hard to root for a group you know never stood any chance and did nothing to help outside of Mai and Yajirobe. Even the kids failed to earn any compassion from me.

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Re: Episode #0418 (01 January 2017)

Postby ShadowBardock89 » Mon Jan 09, 2017 5:52 pm

So, is there a reason why the SoundCloud version is no longer available? I really wanted to listen to it tonight.


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