Episode #0429 (15 October 2017)

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VegettoEX
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Episode #0429 (15 October 2017)

Postby VegettoEX » Mon Oct 16, 2017 2:32 pm

Episode #0429 (download MP3) (rss feed) (subscribe in iTunes) (YouTube version) (SoundCloud version)
50:23; 96 kbps, mono; 34.8 MB

Episode #0429! Mike and Lance discuss the Dragon Ball franchise's shift to "Z" based on Kazuhiko Torishima's comments and observations from a 2016 interview with Forbes. What changes were made to the production team, and how did those changes trickle down and shape the franchise for decades to come? A little bit of impromptu listener questions wraps up the episode!

SEGMENTS:
00:13 - Introduction (what's on deck)
02:37 - Topic (Kazuhiko Torishiama and the "Z" shift)
34:45 - Listener Questions (site stuff, Vegetto's name, Super's story arc potential, etc.)

REFERENCED SITES:

Always great to have Lance back around on the show - enjoy!
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KBABZ
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Re: Episode #0429 (15 October 2017)

Postby KBABZ » Mon Oct 16, 2017 5:11 pm

Heya! I have a theory as to why Torishima felt the way he did about the anime, relating to you noticing the change in story style. My suspicion is that he additionally did not feel too happy about the three Dragon Ball movies. This especially applies to the first two, Blood Rubies and Sleeping Princess, which to me at least feel very different from a typical Dragon Ball story, and I'd bet Torishima didn't like it all that much. It also probably doesn't help that the third movie released during the Heavenly Training filler shortly after King Piccolo's defeat.

I feel this might be valid for the movies. The first three Dragon Ball movies are effectively their own continuity and can't be applied to the anime or manga, and are essentially their own trilogy as they follow Goku being found in the woods and training to be a fighter. The DBZ movies however feel like they give greater effort towards appearing like they could take place during the anime, and tend to feel closer to what a "typical" DBZ story may be. They try to supplement the Z content, rather than try to be their own thing like the DB movies did. And I suspect that Torishima had a hand in that shift happening. (EDIT: and now you guys are talking about this very thing!)

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Re: Episode #0429 (15 October 2017)

Postby MajinMan » Tue Oct 17, 2017 7:26 am

Great podcast and topic. Torishima seemed like a very picky editor. Wasn't he also the visual inspiration of Piccolo Daimao? I've also always been fascinated with the Z shift, and whenever it feels like we're going to get an answer to why it happened, we never do. It's one of those mysteries that will probably never be solved.

And not to sound rude or anything, but on the "Segments" section in the OP, it says that the "Listener Questions" start at 24:45, but it's actually 34:45.

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Re: Episode #0429 (15 October 2017)

Postby VegettoEX » Tue Oct 17, 2017 8:12 am

MajinMan wrote:And not to sound rude or anything, but on the "Segments" section in the OP, it says that the "Listener Questions" start at 24:45, but it's actually 34:45.

Thanks! Slippy fat fingers. Corrected!
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Re: Episode #0429 (15 October 2017)

Postby Cipher » Tue Oct 17, 2017 9:40 am

Commented on this in the thread that recently emerged on the interview (which is, as far as I'm concerned, one of the single best things to ever be dropped on the fandom), but I can absolutely see where Torishima's coming from on the Piccolo Daimao fight. Perhaps not the ending itself, but the action before that is largely lethargic, and as Toriyama was developing a crisper and more idiosyncratic action style in the manga at that point, I can see wanting a shake-up.

I thought it was astute to point out the somewhat goofy filler that runs throughout Dragon Ball even during its shift into more dramatic arcs, and I'll add that even within the Daimao arc itself, the added content surrounding the Super Divine Water is very un-Toriyama. (Much-loved by the fandom though it may be; I tend not to share the opinion that it was a positive change.)

The only thing I really disagreed with here was Mike's assertion that it wasn't about marketing, because it very much was. A staff-shake-up could have happened regardless—and had, by the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai—but there's nothing like a rebranding to call attention to a change.

At the same time, none of this negates the oft-repeated elitist-fan™ wisdom that it's "all one story." There was a rebranding for production-related reasons, but not only was it not motivated by any kind of narrative shift, it doesn't even align neatly with the divide between the TV series themselves.

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Re: Episode #0429 (15 October 2017)

Postby Lunaar » Tue Oct 17, 2017 11:31 am

How did I miss this interview last year? This was a lovely read, thanks for sharing and discussing. I really liked your input on the Z-shift in particular, because the general opinion that fans have is that the Z-rebranding was a conscious hard divide between tone shifts/content - and that has never sat well with me. There is a clear scaling of stakes going on here! It's a big reason why the 23rd Tenka'ichi Budōkai into the Saiyan arcs are my favorite years of the show to rewatch.

On a side note, from the interview:
Kazuhiko Torishima wrote:What I told him in that interview is that if he had met me much earlier, Berserk could have been much better and probably finished by now, with you working on something new instead.

Consider me shook. Don't you dare touch Berserk. ...even if it is an implied alternate timeline. :lol:

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Re: Episode #0429 (15 October 2017)

Postby Baggie_Saiyan » Tue Oct 17, 2017 4:44 pm

Hmm, pronounced "Vege-wrote" it certainly is a looooot better than the assumed "Vege-rot" pronunciation, maybe when I read the Buu arc again I won't automatically replace it with "Vegetto" and pronounce it "wrote". Speaking of spellings, FUNimation spelling "Vegetto" like that now, makes me wonder why they didn't correct "Frieza" to "Freeza"...

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Re: Episode #0429 (15 October 2017)

Postby KBABZ » Tue Oct 17, 2017 8:00 pm

Baggie_Saiyan wrote:FUNimation spelling "Vegetto" like that now, makes me wonder why they didn't correct "Frieza" to "Freeza"...

I dunno. My guess is that maybe they wanted to make the connection to cold-ity a bit more subtle and less bang on the nose obvious? Like Butta becoming Burter? But then they later just out and called his father King Cold...

FUNimation works in strange ways.

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Re: Episode #0429 (15 October 2017)

Postby Gaffer Tape » Wed Oct 25, 2017 2:10 pm

Cipher wrote:Commented on this in the thread that recently emerged on the interview (which is, as far as I'm concerned, one of the single best things to ever be dropped on the fandom), but I can absolutely see where Torishima's coming from on the Piccolo Daimao fight. Perhaps not the ending itself, but the action before that is largely lethargic, and as Toriyama was developing a crisper and more idiosyncratic action style in the manga at that point, I can see wanting a shake-up.


Yeah, I saw your comment in regards to that in the other thread, and before the recording, I skimmed through a bit of it (didn't have time to rewatch the whole thing), and I really couldn't put my finger on what you were saying. That is, there are definitely moments post-staff-shake-up (Z-era) where the fights feel lethargic, and I can easily point them out. So I don't really see anything here that sets itself apart from, say, Cell transforming into his perfect form over the course of half an episode, or the example I mention in the podcast, that of Ma Junior taking half an episode to charge up his Chou Bakuretsu Maha. I mean, isn't Z more well-known for lethargic pacing? And I'm not being rhetorical. I'm genuinely curious to hear these examples in greater detail.

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Re: Episode #0429 (15 October 2017)

Postby Cipher » Wed Oct 25, 2017 7:32 pm

Gaffer Tape wrote:Yeah, I saw your comment in regards to that in the other thread, and before the recording, I skimmed through a bit of it (didn't have time to rewatch the whole thing), and I really couldn't put my finger on what you were saying. That is, there are definitely moments post-staff-shake-up (Z-era) where the fights feel lethargic, and I can easily point them out. So I don't really see anything here that sets itself apart from, say, Cell transforming into his perfect form over the course of half an episode, or the example I mention in the podcast, that of Ma Junior taking half an episode to charge up his Chou Bakuretsu Maha. I mean, isn't Z more well-known for lethargic pacing? And I'm not being rhetorical. I'm genuinely curious to hear these examples in greater detail.

I mean, Z becomes borderline unwatchable during the second half of the Namek arc, so I'm certainly not holding it up as a paragon of pacing. But I was talking about the direction during action scenes rather than in between. When Z gets going, at least outside of its most dire Last House days (and sometimes even then), there's a snappiness to the action that's missing from the entire Daimao fight, I feel. The actual pacing of the action there feels rather slow and dull.

Might be hard to go into more detail without breaking down individual scenes.


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