Episode #0439 (08 April 2018)

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Episode #0439 (08 April 2018)

Postby VegettoEX » Tue Apr 10, 2018 2:56 pm

Episode #0439 (download MP3) (rss feed) (subscribe in iTunes) (YouTube version)
187:09; 96 kbps, mono; 128 MB

Episode #0439! Mike, Chris, Scott, and Ajay chat out the Universe Survival arc, wrapping up the "Dragon Ball Super" television series for good(?). From the exhibition to the recruitment to the tournament itself, what were our expectations and were they met? Julian pops in for a little post-review Q-and-A session wrapping up a few more thoughts on the arc, and that's that!

SEGMENTS:
0:00:13 - Introduction
0:01:48 - Review
2:43:15 - Extra Twitter Q&A
3:05:36 - Wrap-up

REFERENCED SITES:
Remember: this is not some kind of exclusive, definitive Final Word™ on Dragon Ball Super and the Universe Survival arc. This is just what WE happen to think, it's not even ALL of what we happen to think, and we all didn't even necessarily agree on everything! We had a fun time recording and putting this together, and we hope it provides some amount of enjoyment to you in return.
:: [| Michael "VegettoEX" LaBrie |] ::
:: [| Kanzenshuu |] - [| VegettoEX.com |] ::

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Re: Episode #0439 (08 April 2018)

Postby KBABZ » Wed Apr 11, 2018 4:24 am

Disclaimer: Haven't seen a lick of Super, but there's an angle I wanna discuss on.

On the subject of power creep, it mostly doesn't matter... mostly. All you need is a solid justification in order to make it work, because these jumps have occurred for as long as we've had returning characters (namely after time skips in the Kid Goku days). For example, Cyborg Tao returns and is more powerful than before, and the story justifies that quite well with his cybernetic enhancements, as a way to make the story more dramatic (you could almost see it as a new... form!). Frieza's in RoF is explained through a single line, in that he never trained a day in his life. That's really all you need, so it's frustrating when the writers of the story don't even bother with it and skip straight to the "OMG they're competitive and kick ass!" part of it without justification.

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Re: Episode #0439 (08 April 2018)

Postby Kataphrut » Wed Apr 11, 2018 5:20 am

So when do we get the full version of "Mike and Chris' acapella cover of Limit Break x Survivor" on iTunes?

Good listen, agreed with a lot of the criticism even though I liked the arc. There was one recurring point that came up a bit that I'm not sure on, which is the idea of what Dragon Ball should or shouldn't be. "Dragon Ball shouldn't be episodic." "There shouldn't be a climax in every episode." Stuff like that. Sure, the way they executed it in this arc was pretty poor, but I don't think the idea of an episodic Dragon Ball series is inherently bad, especially in something like Super where they're not going off a manga. Surely we can all agree the best parts of the series were the standalone episodes like babysitting Pan, the Dr Slump crossover, the Hit/Saiyaman/Krillin two-parters, etc right? The idea of each episode focusing on a different fight could have worked, it just needed better cohesion and direction on when and where everything was happening. I've seen a lot of "ToP in real-time" supercuts that fall apart after the initial rumble because Goku shows up in every episode.

I wonder just how many problems with the arc could've been solved if they'd either done away with the 48-minute time limit or greatly extended it (I'm thinking it would need to be three hours MINIMUM to make sense). Not all of them, sure, but a fair few. So many problems can be traced back to that; the stamina problem, the lack of downtime, rushing certain characters, the general arc fatigue, etc.

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Re: Episode #0439 (08 April 2018)

Postby KBABZ » Wed Apr 11, 2018 8:45 am

Kataphrut wrote:There was one recurring point that came up a bit that I'm not sure on, which is the idea of what Dragon Ball should or shouldn't be. "Dragon Ball shouldn't be episodic." "There shouldn't be a climax in every episode." Stuff like that. Sure, the way they executed it in this arc was pretty poor, but I don't think the idea of an episodic Dragon Ball series is inherently bad, especially in something like Super where they're not going off a manga. Surely we can all agree the best parts of the series were the standalone episodes like babysitting Pan, the Dr Slump crossover, the Hit/Saiyaman/Krillin two-parters, etc right?

I think the caveat to what they were saying is that it doesn't work in a dramatic, fight-centric storyline with no actual results drawn in most episodes. You can make easy comparisons to the various Tenkaichi Budokais, which had matchups like Giran, Jackie v Yamcha, Bacterian, Cyborg Tao, Man-Wolf, Chi-Chi and Krillin v Piccolo last only one episode. However those matchups are either rather comedic in nature or very one-sided, while all the dramatic matchups are almost always multi-parters that have to be covered in more than one episode. As well, after a fight there's a period of downtime where the characters take a breather before the next battle to defuse the tension a little bit.

You can also draw comparisons to non-Tournament arcs that are episodic, specifically the Pilaf arc, the World Training arc and the Heavenly Training arc. With those there's always an "encounter of the day" and a more laid-back atmosphere that helps support the episodic structure, which doesn't sound at all like the Tournament of Power.

Kataphrut wrote:The idea of each episode focusing on a different fight could have worked

One way to do it would be to have blocks of episodes dedicated to particular matchups of the fight, and then jump to a different one when a block has wrapped up (so a matchup would be a sort of mini-arc, kinda like what the RRA arc had going). That would require a lot of storyline planning though to make sure everything lined up, which Super's production probably wouldn't have bothered with.

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Re: Episode #0439 (08 April 2018)

Postby Super Saiyan Swagger » Wed Apr 11, 2018 9:39 am

Really enjoyed listening to this, even if I disagreed with some of the points made.

I feel like how people will enjoy this arc all comes down to what Dragon Ball is to you. For me, it is a series all about moments. Whenever I look back at the show I'm always looking back at the moments. I've been like this with Dragon Ball, Z, GT and now Super. It's those 5 minute clips on YouTube with millions of views of a Dragon Ball moment that make the series for me. So when an arc like this comes around and it's all about moments, I'm totally fine with it! I actually like the episodic approach. It's different, but it worked for me. Something always happens in every episode and something always gets wrapped up. This arc had so many great moments throughout it. It's what made me enjoy it so much!

I understand most of the criticisms made throughout the video, but they just didn't bug me that much as I was watching the show. My main criticism towards the arc was the use of build up for certain scenarios. A lot of build up was done for Krillin, only for him to be knocked out so early on in the tournament. Then there's something like Jiren and Toppo's resolution in the final episode not getting the build up it deserved. It's very strange and clearly not well thought out. I've found that a lot of Super's problems all come down to being unorganised, which sucks because that could've easily been prevented had this show gotten the pre-production it desperately needed.

I reaaaally hope you do a podcast like this again for the upcoming movie.

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Re: Episode #0439 (08 April 2018)

Postby Captain Awesome » Wed Apr 11, 2018 9:29 pm

I really enjoyed hearing from Ajay, Mike and Julian on this episode.

What I didn't enjoy so much was the absolute domination of the podcast by Chris where he constantly derailed the points of everyone else with this stream-of-consciousness rambling that eventually just degenerated into nonsensical screaming. I'm sure he's a great guy, but he spent the majority of the episode cutting everyone else off to half-articulate a sentence before losing track and prattling into another one.

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Re: Episode #0439 (08 April 2018)

Postby Michsi » Thu Apr 12, 2018 1:45 am

Don't have the time to listen to it all of it on one go, and I still have a portion left, but I just wanted to write something now:

YES! SOMEONE ELSE NOTICED THE U7 FORMER (ACTUAL) VILLAINS VS. U11 HEROES OF JUSTICE MISSED OPPORTUNITY!!! I've been thinking about this a lot, not as much as others since this possible scenario hadn't really been touched upon, but it still hurts no one thought to make this thing in the show.

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Re: Episode #0439 (08 April 2018)

Postby sangofe » Thu Apr 12, 2018 4:08 pm

I really enjoyed most of this arc except the recruitment episodes... But I do agree that the "pre-tournament" episodes were better than much of what was in the actual universal survival arc.

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Re: Episode #0439 (08 April 2018)

Postby Kuwabara » Fri Apr 13, 2018 11:44 pm

Good episode, I just want to just touch on a few different things:

-Kirbopher's comment about initially expecting the arc to progress more like Yu Yu Hakusho's Dark Tournament makes me wish that the arc was actually approached that way. Even though I enjoyed the arc overall, focused team battles with different rules and setups could have lent more of a sense of cohesion, more variety, and allowed more time and opportunities to better develop various characters.

-I agree that the 48-minute time limit only serves to create artificial tension, and made pacing the episodes really awkward.

-Ajay mentions Toppo's sense of justice and overall character never really going anywhere interesting, and I have to disagree. To have Toppo call out Goku as evil, and fight in such earnest throughout most of the tournament, only to then have him throw all of that away and reveal himself to be a God of Destruction, is a huge twist! It's extremely interesting, both in relation to Toppo's own character as well as how it relates to others. Vegeta manages to overcome Toppo without compromising himself or his relationships with others, which completely flies in the face of Toppo's despondence before being eliminated. Through inference, we see Toppo acknowledge his folly in how he reacts to Jiren giving up; Toppo knows not being true to himself and neglecting the influence of his comrades lead to his downfall in the tournament, and knows the same attitude will hinder Jiren even more so.

-I disagree with Kirbopher's statement about 17 surviving and winning the tournament being a twist just for the sake of a twist, it really undersells all of the subtle build-up to that aspect of the arc's ending. It seems unexpected on the surface, but it actually makes a lot of sense. For one, the fact that 17 is treated like this massive wild card and fan favorite return pretty much guaranteed that he would play an extremely important role. I also had a good feeling from the get go that 17 didn't actually sacrifice himself to Jiren's blast. Whether we're talking about his teamwork with 18, how he manages to actually find a chink in Jiren's armor, or how he goads Jiren with what seems like a really inconsequential wish, we're shown that 17 is extremely tactful and prudent in his whole approach to the tournament. 17's stated wish to Jiren in particular is clever foreshadowing that also serves to throw the audience off the scent toward the arc's eventual ending. Surely 17 wouldn't be the one to make the final wish, right?

-I feel like complaining about Kale's Broly form totally misses the point. It certainly seems like a ploy to appease Broly fans, but it's actually really funny and subversive, because this form really doesn't amount to much of anything at all in the grand scheme of things. This fact even gets pointed out in the podcast! It's an absolute joke, at the complete and utter expense of those fans. They wanted Broly to be canon, and this is what they got. Extremely amusing and very much in line with Toriyama's writing.

-Kirbopher's point about Universe 7 being a moral juxtaposition to Universe 11 is interesting, and while driving that point home more could have resulted in something more compelling than what we actually got, the fact that he blows up about this is strange to me. We're given very little indication that they might have even gone down such a road anyway. The arc is billed as a battle royale with multiple universes, that's all I ever really expected and that's precisely what we got.

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Re: Episode #0439 (08 April 2018)

Postby Super Birado » Mon Apr 16, 2018 10:22 am

What was the “problematic” part of the Tenshenhan recruitment arc?

Not trying to be a smartass, I legit don’t really remember much about the episode.

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Re: Episode #0439 (08 April 2018)

Postby sailorspazz » Thu Apr 19, 2018 6:01 pm

Super Birado wrote:What was the “problematic” part of the Tenshenhan recruitment arc?

Not trying to be a smartass, I legit don’t really remember much about the episode.


Turtle Hermit's behavior, basically. Many people felt that his actions went beyond the sort of thing he's always done, being a creepy old man perving on girls for laughs, and crossed the line into appearing threatening. I can't remember well enough what particular things he said or did that made it seem that way (because I've largely forgotten the episode too :P ), but I do remember when it came out that there was discussion of it going too far (or perhaps just seeming worse than it was in the past, with some wishing they would tone down his antics in the modern day)

As for the podcast itself, it took me several commutes to finish it, since I listen to it while driving to/from work! Though I do see the overall issues with the arc that were pointed out, I didn't necessarily dislike it. But I do agree that on the whole it's fairly messy and inconsistent, even though there were badass moments and twists to make it enjoyable. Week to week it was okay, but marathoning the arc would probably just make the problems more blatant.

I was curious to hear what you guys thought about Ribrianne and the whole magical girl squad, but understandably there wasn't time to discuss everything from this arc. Mainly because her shtick seemed quite divisive in fandom, with some (like me) laughing at the magical girl tropes like making flowery speeches about love, while other fans (who probably never watched stuff like Sailor Moon and the like) were annoyed with her from the start, and voiced their displeasure every time she was given screentime. True, she may overstayed her welcome a bit by the time she was eliminated, but overall I found her squad to be a fun addition to the tournament.


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