Ocean Studios' "Dragon Ball Kai" dub seems to be coming...

[TheBlackPaladin]

Most likely to stop confusion between the two dubs.

Really, you have two releases of the same series and how would you even know the difference between them to which one you would want to buy?

By doing research?

True, but the average consumer doesn't do research. We live in the age of Twitter, where people want you to get to the point in a few words or less. That's how people have come to expect their marketing nowadays.

[RazorX]

It's also the reason why they had to dub DBZ themselves and replace the score with made-in-Canada music, right?

Nope.

The Ocean dub of DBZ was made primarily for the UK and European market. Because of the events that unfolded, it is doubtful that AB Groupe considered Canada as a potential customer (Canada didnt get the Ocean dub until the middle of the Cell Games, way after Ocean started dubbing in the middle of the Trunks saga. UK and EU got the Ocean dub from the episode they started dubbing)

The most likely reason for Ocean replacing the original music was that the precedent had been set with the previous episodes. Perhaps using the original music for the Ocean episodes would've been "jarring" for the fans. I think cost played a factor as well.

Personally, I'm glad Ocean replaced the music. I enjoy the Westwood Ocean music too much to consider wanting the original music (which btw I can and do listen to anytime I like in the Japanese version)

The middle of the Cell games is an odd place to switch dubs, back then one of the main reasons floating round for this was that YTV got fed with what they (probably rightfully) perceived as "second class" treatment from Funimation compared to Cartoon Network USA and purchased rights to the Ocean dub while deciding to dump the Funimation dub.

Therefore, Canada's content law was not a factor in the production of the Ocean dub because the dub was made for the UK, but it did help that it was Canadian made and perhaps that was one of the factors in YTV's decision to broadcast the Ocean dub.

The source would be Sean Schemmel. In fact, the very first rumor we ever heard of an Ocean dub of Kai was from Schemmel. He said that Ocean was producing their own dub, and that they would be replacing the music with "crappy Canadian music," and that they were adding sound effects where there previously were none. I believe he gave a specific example by saying that, in the first or second episode, there's a bit where Bulma turns her head, and they added a "whoosh" sound effect where there previously wasn't any.

Sean Schemmel didn't suddenly talk about the Ocean dub out nowhere. It was someone else (Subzero Ice I think?) that brought it up and Sean got into a discussion with him about it.

I could understand that the music in the post-Saban Ocean dub (aka the Westwood dub) was replaced due to Canadian law (and I remember reading somewhere that the music was replaced at the request/demand of the Canadian TV network that aired DBZ),

Well considering that the Westwood dub was not initially made for Canadian networks....that would be a bit difficult.

People need to remember that the Westwood Ocean dub started production in episode 108 (Goku's Special Technique) and it started broadcast from that very episode onwards in the UK. Canada didnt get the Ocean dub until IIRC episode 168; a good 60 episodes after the dub started and was broadcast in UK and Europe.

but if that's the case, how were they able to air the "Gundam WING" dub with the original score intact? Or the "Inu Yasha" dub? Or the "Death Note" dub?

Because that probably wasn't the case. But, if the Canadian content law had something to do with helping the Ocean dub then I'm glad it exists.

I have my suspicions that Funimation secured the rights for countries like the UK yet still never release anything here. If that is the case it just seems like they're being spiteful to me.

Funimation didn't have the rights for the UK. A Funimation representative on the Toonzone forums confirmed that a few years ago.

However, I wouldn't rule out spite on Funimation's part. It's possible they helped prevent the Ocean dub's DVD release. I can remember a quote floating round in the early 2000s apparently from a Funi VA being being spiteful towards the Ocean dub, while Ocean remained professional and didn't even acknowledge the Funimation dub (and they shouldn't).

The main thing is, we're getting an Ocean dub of Kai and with Scott McNeil reprising his roles from the Saban and Westwood castings, things are looking really good (I mean, if they can get Scott McNeil back for Dr Briefs of all characters, they shouldn't have a problem getting Brian Drummond back for Vegeta, a role which is arguably even more important than Scott McNeil's Piccolo).

[RazorX]

Why did Ocean pick episode 108 of DBZ to start dubbing? The answer is it has to do with the purchasing of episodes by Cartoon Network UK. Cartoon Network UK had purchased 2 batches of episodes from Funimation. The first batch was episodes 1-67. The second batch was episodes 68-107. They kept repeating each batch of episodes until the next batch was purchased.

The next batch was episodes 108-150; which of course was the Ocean dub batch.

Some people don't understand why Ocean skipped the Frieza and Garlic Jr episodes; the most likely (but not confirmed) reason is that CN UK had already purchased those episodes from Funi so Ocean started from the episode where CN UK's purchase from Funimation left off.

[superrayman3]

Some people don't understand why Ocean skipped the Freeza and Garlic Jr episodes; the most likely (but not confirmed) reason is that CN UK had already purchased those episodes from Funi so Ocean started from the episode where CN UK's purchase from Funimation left off.

If you think about it from thet viewpoint it actually perfect makes sense as to why Ocean themselves didn't dub the earlier episodes.

[Super Sayian Prime]

How many times do I must say that the Cancon laws likely have no relation to the changed score?

[Hades]

Is this turning into Half-Life 2 Episode 3 all over again or something, given that all we seem to know for certain so far (after roughly a year and a quarter) is that:

- There is an English dub of DBZ Kai being made in Canada
- Scott McNeil is returning for definite
- Freeza has been recast
- As has Goku
- There will be a replacement score, whether it is a home-made one or the official replacement.

[TheBlackPaladin]

Is this turning into Half-Life 2 Episode 3 all over again or something, given that all we seem to know for certain so far (after roughly a year and a quarter) is that:

- There is an English dub of DBZ Kai being made in Canada
- Scott McNeil is returning for definite
- Freeza has been recast
- As has Goku
- There will be a replacement score, whether it is a home-made one or the official replacement.

Well, not only do we know that Freeza has been recast, we know that he has been recast with Lee Tokar* as the new actor to play him. Also, we do not know for a fact that there will be a replacement score. I'm not saying Sean Schemmel's a bad source, I'm just saying that he's not an official source, and by that I mean that he's not someone who is directly involved with the Ocean dub of Kai. Until we hear from someone directly involved, we can only treat the replacement score rumor as just that--a rumor.

*PS: For what it's worth, I think Lee is being a little more hush about it now than he used to be, most likely because of an NDA. I became Facebook friends with him a few months ago (he actually sent me an invitation by virtue of the fact that, as voice actors, we both belong to a few Facebook groups dedicated to voice acting). I asked him if it was true that he had been cast as Freeza, and didn't receive a reply. To be clear, I'm not blaming him or looking down upon him for that, I'm just saying that I took that to mean that he doesn't want to be as vocal about it as he used to be, and I totally understand that. Many clients, especially for animation, are SUPER strict about NDAs, and often have no problem re-casting an actor if they break their silence too early. I for one was shocked that Scott McNeil felt confident enough to specifically use the phrase, "Screw the NDA," when he announced he was working on Kai.

[saiyanprimalforce]

I for one was shocked that Scott McNeil felt confident enough to specifically use the phrase, "Screw the NDA," when he announced he was working on Kai.

Well, he is Scott f'n McNeil. I highly doubt they would do anything but slap him on the wrist for doing it. I mean, who else would they get to VA Piccolo, and not piss off a HUGE amount of fans? Granted, the same could be said for Brian Drummond, who I hope doesn't return as Vegeta, but McNeil is arguably the best English Piccolo VA(honestly, I think Chris Sabat is better given his Piccolo in Kai. . .as things stand right now anyway). If they're to keep one or two of the old-school Ocean VA's from Z, McNeil is definitely top pick. But also, I suppose it's a case of the new Ocean dub needing Scott McNeil more than Scott McNeil needs the Ocean dub. He obviously wasn't worried at all about disclosing the information publicly.

[TheBlackPaladin]

I for one was shocked that Scott McNeil felt confident enough to specifically use the phrase, "Screw the NDA," when he announced he was working on Kai.

Well, he is Scott f'n McNeil. I highly doubt they would do anything but slap him on the wrist for doing it. I mean, who else would they get to VA Piccolo, and not piss off a HUGE amount of fans?

It would be nice if things operated that way, but that doesn't mean quite as much as you would think. Show biz is ruthless, because it's a business, not an art. Bob Bergen, the voice of Porky Pig (and very nice guy) said that he and all of the old voice actors for the Looney Toons characters were asked to audition for them again for the new Looney Toons show. Bob said that several of his fellow actors refused to re-audition, because they believed that it was insulting to ask them to audition again for characters they had already been playing for many years, and that they believed they would get cast regardless. Bob then went to note that all of the actors who re-auditioned kept their roles (himself included), and that all of the actors who didn't re-audition...were re-cast. Heck, even re-auditioning doesn't guarantee that you'll keep an old role. Let's not forget that Kirby Morrow re-auditioned for Goku and was not cast.

On the other hand, some actors do get away with breaking an NDA if the producers don't feel it's a big deal. Sonny Strait accidentally broke his NDA for his role on "Soul Eater," and said that while he did get a stern phone call from a FUNimation executive, they were able to resolve things amicably once he convinced them that he thought the terms of his NDA were up.

So it could go either way. We'll just have to wait and see...and speculate like madmen in the mean time.

[saiyanprimalforce]

So it could go either way. We'll just have to wait and see...and speculate like madmen in the mean time.

Yes, that is the hard part. Lol. But yeah, showbiz is more often about internal politics and making money than "who's the best guy to play who." But I just meant that McNeil is certainly a very celebrated VA, in both fandom and the VA business. If anyone could get away with outright breaking his NDA, it's him. But yeah, most VA's would certainly be committing suicide or risk losing their roles for such things. Kinda silly, but that's the way the world works unfortunately.

Btw, totally didn't know about the Loony Tunes deal. That's pretty interesting stuff. Though somewhat sad, as I think it was kinda silly that those va's were asked to audition for the same characters they'd been playing for years. But again, business is business.

[Hades]

So why are Ocean being so secretive about their new dub? I mean, IIRC Post Trunks Saga, they broadcast their old dub simultaneously with Funimation last time.

And TBP, why are animation companies particularly strict about NDAs?

[elcrunkus]

I hope Ian Corlett and Brian Drummond come back! Are they going to release this anytime soon? I remember hearing about this back before even Kai in the United States was released.

[TheBlackPaladin]

Well Hades, it really comes down to two things.

1) Trust. NDAs are written to be strict. When an actor signs an NDA, it specifically says that they cannot disclose anything, not, "You can kinda sorta disclose what you want before the terms are up." Talent is certainly a consideration whenever an actor is hired, but being a trustworthy actor also helps your chances of getting and maintaining jobs. Would you really want to work with somebody who cannot keep a secret even when they're told to? It's considered professional courtesy to keep quiet when you sign a contract telling you to...well...to keep quiet.

2) Easily the bigger point, marketing. Companies (at least try to) come up with very precise and detailed marketing plans, and part of that marketing plan involves revealing certain things at certain dates. They announce that they've acquired a project on x date, they announce the cast on y date, and so on and so forth. If things get revealed too early, then the best-case scenario is that their marketing plan needs to be re-evaluated from scratch. The worst-case scenario is that fans get too vocal about what they've learned, and projects are cancelled altogether.

Here's an example of the worst-case scenario. While it's not an example of an animated project, the same concept applies. Back in the early 2000's, JJ Abrams wrote a script for a new "Superman" movie, which Warner Bros had been trying to make ever since the last one came out in the late 80's. However, there were A LOT of changes. Krypton didn't blow up, Superman was the prince of Krypton, Jimmy Olsen was gay, Clark stored his suit in a metallic canister, Lex Luthor was Kryptonian, and Superman fought using Kryptonian karate, to name a few. A movie as radical as that with its changes needed to be presented very carefully so that fans wouldn't throw a fit. It didn't get to that point, though, because somebody leaked the script...and all hell broke loose. The fans went INSANE, and while I am summarizing a tad, the backlash was so bad that they ended up hiring Bryan Singer to write an entirely different script that played it safe and didn't explore much in the way of new territory for the character, hence "Superman Returns." If Warner Bros found out who leaked that script...ho boy...I don't want to imagine his fate.

In any event, I don't want to get too off-topic, it's just that the best example of a worst-case scenario that I could think of was off-topic. The big point is, the companies want to decide for themselves how to market and reveal big entertainment projects, including animated projects, and they don't want actors stepping on their toes and doing more than they were hired to do: to act.

[Hades]

Thanks for the info TBP.

Now, personally, I suspect that aside from Scott McNeil, there's going to be a total recast at Ocean, due to the fact that many actors from the old dub have moved on to other things, whereas FUNimation's cast has been largely consistent, due to most of the original cast being in the games (as well as accruing experience in the role), which was probably one of the reasons why there weren't too many recasts.

[Aoi]

Is this turning into Half-Life 2 Episode 3 all over again or something, given that all we seem to know for certain so far (after roughly a year and a quarter) is that:

- There is an English dub of DBZ Kai being made in Canada
- Scott McNeil is returning for definite
- Freeza has been recast
- As has Goku
- There will be a replacement score, whether it is a home-made one or the official replacement.

This made my day. I really hope to see this soon and will be 100% buying the official release. I've seen both dubs and adore the Ocean dub. Sabat's performances are fantastic in Kai, but Ocean's Piccolo and Vegeta are easily my favourites. To me, Drummond is Vegeta. If they add new music to the show, even better. To me, Kikuchi with Kai has been a let down.

We went from this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKyY7-DWpNo

...To some generic Kikuchi music that most of the time drags the show down. At first I liked it but now I feel that I actually need to re-implement the Yamamoto score myself to get the feeling Kai was meant to produce.

[Hades]

Replacement scores are more a "dark age of anime" (Concurrent with the "Dark Age" of comics) thing, and only a minority of dubbing companies do that nowadays. And if Ocean are trying to compete with funimation on grounds of faithfulness to the original, then a replacement score would be a very bad idea, regardless of how the yamamoto scandal was handled.

[penguintruth]

I think many of you are really exaggerating how bad the use of Kikuchi music in Kai has been. Sometimes it doesn't work, sure, but it often does. I'd rather have Kikuchi's score than some crappy Canadian-produced English dub replacement score. The very idea that they might do that kind of puts me off this whole thing.

[batistabus]

My only interest with this project is to see if they can pick up the slack that FUNimation left. This includes Kaio, Recoome, and various other miscasts, along with characters we already know will be recast. I'm also interested in seeing any changes they might make to the script (attack names, describing the Demon Clan, etc.).

I highly doubt Chris Ayres and a few other performances will be topped (although some could perhaps be matched). Also, I look forward to hearing McNeil take a stab at it again. I've already expressed my feelings about a replacement score in this thread, so I won't get into that again.

Again, checking out this dub will be more of a curiosity for me than "the FUNimation dub wasn't good enough, so I'm looking for something to replace it with". This is partially because I thought the FUNi dub was quite good...and the fact that the Japanese dub is my main source.

[Akumaito Beam]

I think many of you are really exaggerating how bad the use of Kikuchi music in Kai has been. Sometimes it doesn't work, sure, but it often does. I'd rather have Kikuchi's score than some crappy Canadian-produced English dub replacement score. The very idea that they might do that kind of puts me off this whole thing.

I don't know when the Kai Kikuchi score stops sucking (and it does) but as far as the the earliest stuff I've heard (Saiyan and early Namek) it has to be some of the worst placement I've ever heard. The vast majority of the time the music starts WAY too early and ends WAY too late to absurdly laughable extents. I realize it gets better because I know the first DVD set they used Kikuchi's music on was fine by me but I wouldn't fault someone for wanting to take anything else before the point where the OST gets its stuff together. I'm going by the Toonzai airings so if the placement is different on the DVDs ignore my big dumb post.

[dbboxkaifan]

I think many of you are really exaggerating how bad the use of Kikuchi music in Kai has been. Sometimes it doesn't work, sure, but it often does. I'd rather have Kikuchi's score than some crappy Canadian-produced English dub replacement score. The very idea that they might do that kind of puts me off this whole thing.

People on Daizex complain too much about it, when actually it's really good.

If you don't like it, go do your own music placements. Period.