Ocean Studios' "Dragon Ball Kai" Dub Turns 14; Still Unreleased

[NitroEX]

I don't agree with it either way, especially if the added sound effects or replacement score changes the tone of the material in a dramatic way.

Then you don't have to watch the dub.

Also I'd like to just point out that, if this is the first time you're complaining about the sound effects in an Ocean dub, then chances are you didn't notice them in the Pioneer or Saban dubs, and thus they were not intrusive.

One other thing; Kai's original score already changed the tone drastically from DBZ, as did Sumitomo's music in TFC. I find it hard to sympathize with complaints of a change of tone when Toei have already done that themselves.

[MR.Mark]

I don't agree with it either way, especially if the added sound effects or replacement score changes the tone of the material in a dramatic way.

Then you don't have to watch the dub.

I'd rather watch it and form my opinion on it, in the meantime I'm allowed to constructively discus aspects of it as a fan of dubs in general. That is the very purpose of a message board after all.

One other thing; Kai's original score already changed the tone drastically from DBZ, as did Sumitomo's music in TFC. I find it hard to sympathize with complaints of a change of tone when Toei have already done that themselves.

Subjective, as no score given to Dragon Ball changed the tone as dramatically as Faloncer and other replacement scores for DBZ outside of Japan imo.

Apples and Oranges really, coming from a fan that feels capturing the tone of the original manga comes first, rather than the original DBZ.

[NitroEX]

I'd rather watch it and form my opinion on it, in the meantime I'm allowed to constructively discus aspects of it as a fan of dubs in general. That is the very purpose of a message board after all.

That's fine. I'm not saying you shouldn't be allowed to watch, I'm saying that if you dislike the change as much as you think you do, that you can stop at any time and watch your preferred version.

[MR.Mark]

This is creeping into dub wars territory which I refuse to fall into. Never the less I haven't seen this dub yet and would very much like to check it out. At the same time there's nothing wrong with being middle ground and being somewhat skeptical about it.

Also, I'm very much aware of the added sound effects in the old Saban and Pioneer dubs, especially the Scooby doo like ones, and they did annoy me.

[8000 Saiyan]

I wasn't bothered by the added sound effects in the Saban and Pioneer dubs, so added sound effects won't bother me in this dub. What will bother me if there's any miscasts.

[SX10]

Yeah it always confused me that it was believed they'd roll out the same shoddy rehash of the Monster Rancher/ Megaman music. That was literally done out of desperation on an incredibly rushed production. I bet they were embarrassed to even sign off on it at the time.

Rest assured, it's completely new. Maybe it is more dramatic and that's where it feels slightly darker. But you know what? Rather that and have something fresh than a re-used Z track.

The actors hear their parts and their parts alone unless they get a rare glimpse. Beach didn't feel it was darker but he admitted he had only heard some clips. Tockar might be referring to his work during the Goku/ Freeza fight?

As for the sound effects… I had NO idea they were in the Pioneer dubs hahaha! And before all that I wasn't aware of them in the early Ocean dub. It had to be pointed out to me.

In the weirdest and best way possible, they kind of enhanced the lighter and funnier moments? I'm reaching here, but what I actually loved about the original Ocean dub, accuracy aside, was that straight from episode one the group dynamic felt natural and familiar and funny and when things got serious, the stakes felt high. I don't feel like they cheapened anything with their creative decisions.

As Richard Ian Cox said, all anime is a dubbed. Even the original Japanese recordings. I respect the original, really I do! But thing is, there were fidelity issues even in the original Z with regards to being faithful to the true source, the manga. When things change slightly, so long as the translations and casting are solid, I'm really not concerned. If I like it, I like it.

And I KNOW I'm gonna like this.

[Robo4900]

Yeah it always confused me that it was believed they'd roll out the same shoddy rehash of the Monster Rancher/ Megaman music. That was literally done out of desperation on an incredibly rushed production. I bet they were embarrassed to even sign off on it at the time.

Rest assured, it's completely new. Maybe it is more dramatic and that's where it feels slightly darker. But you know what? Rather that and have something fresh than a re-used Z track.

The actors hear their parts and their parts alone unless they get a rare glimpse. Beach didn't feel it was darker but he admitted he had only heard some clips. Tockar might be referring to his work during the Goku/ Freeza fight?

As for the sound effects… I had NO idea they were in the Pioneer dubs hahaha! And before all that I wasn't aware of them in the early Ocean dub. It had to be pointed out to me.

In the weirdest and best way possible, they kind of enhanced the lighter and funnier moments? I'm reaching here, but what I actually loved about the original Ocean dub, accuracy aside, was that straight from episode one the group dynamic felt natural and familiar and funny and when things got serious, the stakes felt high. I don't feel like they cheapened anything with their creative decisions.

As Richard Ian Cox said, all anime is a dubbed. Even the original Japanese recordings. I respect the original, really I do! But thing is, there were fidelity issues even in the original Z with regards to being faithful to the true source, the manga. When things change slightly, so long as the translations and casting are solid, I'm really not concerned. If I like it, I like it.

And I KNOW I'm gonna like this.

I don't really have any comments here other than well said.

Frankly, I think Schemmel was exaggerating with his remarks about the sound effects being as bad as they are, he was probably still salty that another dub was being made to contend with his, plus, how much of the dub could he have realistically seen in 2010? I doubt he saw enough to properly judge the entire dub's sound design and music.

I am 100% certain he was just referring to the Saban and Westwood dubs. There's no way in hell he saw any of Ocean Kai; in 2010, they probably hadn't even cast it yet.

Also hearing about Funi using fansubs for Kai's scripts? I've never heard about that until this thread, last I checked they used the manga as inspiration for there translations.

I'll ask the guys I talked to about Funi using fansubs, and see if I can get a more detailed explanation.

[NitroEX]

Frankly, I think Schemmel was exaggerating with his remarks about the sound effects being as bad as they are, he was probably still salty that another dub was being made to contend with his, plus, how much of the dub could he have realistically seen in 2010? I doubt he saw enough to properly judge the entire dub's sound design and music.

I am 100% certain he was just referring to the Saban and Westwood dubs. There's no way in hell he saw any of Ocean Kai; in 2010, they probably hadn't even cast it yet.

I don't believe it's that simple. Schemmel wouldn't be so misinformed or ignorant enough to not recognize Kai from Z. Funimation had the North American rights and were evidently in some collaboration with Ocean for Kai's video edits at the time, it's possible that they were entitled to view a sample of the sound effects and music that were being worked on at the time, just by virtue of being the rights holders. Either that or Ocean were potentially trying to sell their music and sound effects services to Funimation for the Nicktoons dub. If that was the case, the version Schemmel heard would've been part of some sort of pitch sent to Funimation. How Schemmel would've known about it is beyond me but he must've been close with the higher ups within Funimation. At the time he would have still been in studio dubbing Kai 1.0 so he could have easily got wind of news like that and asked if he could have a peek. It potentially could've also been second-hand information that he received from higher-ups within the company but then again, he did seem confident in speaking about the music, specifically "some of which I have heard".

I want to make it clear that I don't believe it's possible in any way for Schemmel to have heard any voices by that point as Kirby's reveal of the casting came way later in 2010, but nobody has ever suggested that he did hear the voices, only "some" sounds and music, which is entirely possible. Ocean could've started laying down the sound design and music for the first episodes at a very early stage, and this might've been what Funimation were able to see.

TheBlackPaladin knows more about this particular subject but I think it's worth noting; At one point Schemmel made a Facebook post talking about the Westwood dub's scripts being similar to their Z scripts, and how he basically believed they might've been transcribing the dialogue, with the reason being that Funimation's Z dub made various script changes from within the booth so any script being given to Ocean wouldn't (in his opinion) have retained these changed lines, yet they were in the Westwood dub. The only reason I'm mentioning this is because it would back up what I'm saying about Schemmel knowing the difference between the Westwood/Ocean Z dub and Kai.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

If that was the case, the version Schemmel heard would've been part of some sort of pitch sent to Funimation. How Schemmel would've known about it is beyond me but he must've been close with the higher ups within Funimation. At the time he would have still been in studio dubbing Kai 1.0 so he could have easily got wind of news like that and asked if he could have a peek. It potentially could've also been second-hand information that he received from higher-ups within the company but then again, he did seem confident in speaking about the music, specifically "some of which I have heard".

Schemmel is good friends with Sabat. I assume he would have been there if at any time Ocean sent Funimation a sample of their replacement score and sound effects, as the director it would make sense for him to be in on all decisions pertaining to the Kai dub and related edited versions (such as the Nicktoons cut).

Has anyone ever tried to ask Schemmel about his comments about this dub at an interview or convention panel? It could be interesting to hear him elaborate on what he claims to have seen.

[8000 Saiyan]

If that was the case, the version Schemmel heard would've been part of some sort of pitch sent to Funimation. How Schemmel would've known about it is beyond me but he must've been close with the higher ups within Funimation. At the time he would have still been in studio dubbing Kai 1.0 so he could have easily got wind of news like that and asked if he could have a peek. It potentially could've also been second-hand information that he received from higher-ups within the company but then again, he did seem confident in speaking about the music, specifically "some of which I have heard".

Schemmel is good friends with Sabat. I assume he would have been there if at any time Ocean sent Funimation a sample of their replacement score and sound effects, as the director it would make sense for him to be in on all decisions pertaining to the Kai dub and related edited versions (such as the Nicktoons cut).

Has anyone ever tried to ask Schemmel about his comments about this dub at an interview or convention panel? It could be interesting to hear him elaborate on what he claims to have seen.

I don't think so. Someone could ask him on Twitter.

[Mewzard]

I honestly don't mind another second English dub of Kai. And let's face something, you can't please everyone (some people never became accostumed to the Funi voices). I want to see this dub because I'm a big fan of the Vancouver talent pool and their dubs (Death Note, Ranma 1/2, Inuyasha, Gundam, Black Lagoon, Shana, Sword of the Stranger...etc). I think they deserve a chance to redeem themselves after the trainwreck that was the Westwood dub, and prove to some people that they can actually act and aren't talentless idiots who ruined Dragon Ball with their voice acting.

I know this reply to your post is a little old, but I felt I need to add something: If FUNi was able to improve with Kai, why can't Ocean? I know you like them as actors, but I don't think you're giving them enough credit. I'd say you're basically underestimating their talents when it comes to giving a genuine performance.

Sorry for the late response.

I'm not underestimating their talent, and I never once questioned their talent.

I don't doubt they can deliver a better dub than what we got at the time, I just think at this point an Ocean Dub of Kai is pointless.

Where can it be sold? FUNimation has their dub of Kai out in DVD/Blu Ray in almost every English speaking region (they own the North American Distribution rights and have lent out their dub to other countries outside the Americas). As for Broadcast TV, FUNi's dub has also aired in just about every region that would have interest in it.

What's an Ocean Dub of Kai going to do, air solely on Canadian TV then never get a home release? That is a massive waste of time and money. If people in Canada want Kai, they have the FUNi dub already, for many years. How many people would even rebuy the series if it was an option given that the FUNi release was a good dub?

An Ocean Dub of Kai should have come out much closer to FUNi's release if they wanted it to be a thing.

From a business prospective, the Ocean Dub of Kai doesn't make sense right now. Not in a time where the complete FUNi Dub of Kai has been done for many years, and even the Dub for Kai's Buu Saga is not fully finished and available for purchase.

It's not an issue of talent, there's just no point right now. Had the UK gotten it when they were so late to getting Kai and it had gotten a home release, it could have been more viable, but losing that window was the end for Ocean Kai's viability.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

What's an Ocean Dub of Kai going to do, air solely on Canadian TV then never get a home release? That is a massive waste of time and money.

The money has already been spent. This dub was produced. Any loss of investment on the producers part has happened. Its done. Unless they proceed to dub the Buu saga without securing a TV deal again there's not much more money that can be wasted.

Unlikely it may be that a Canadian TV station will buy this dub... why not let it air if a broadcaster shows interest? The producers can only benefit because if it does air at the very least a portion of the cost of its production will be recouped by ratings and music royalties. The difficult part would be winning over a broadcaster, but if that last, albeirt challenging hurdle is overcome then this dub has a chance to make up for some of the lost investment, which may not be a lot but really anything is better than nothing.

It would also wouldn't hurt from the broadcaster's point of view because, as we've seen time and time again Dragon Ball sells. Its a brand, and a well known one that did well for YTV back in the early 2000s with the Ocean cast despite the fact the Funimation dub was readily available on VHS and DVD during the Westwood dub's run (similarly the, case now with only the Funi Kai home releases being on the market).

It may be a niche product at the end of the day, but it will more than likely retain a cult following to keep discussions like this going. If this dub airs I'd imagine there will be no shortage of dub comparison videos and interest in Richard Ian Cox and Lee Tockar's takes on Goku and Freeza respectively, how all the reprising actors have improved in their roles (which I have confidence at least some of them have), the list goes on. This thread has over 213 pages despite us never hearing anything from this dub other than a theme song that may not be final, that speaks volumes about the love this fanbase has for anything related to this series.

It's not an issue of talent, there's just no point right now. Had the UK gotten it when they were so late to getting Kai and it had gotten a home release, it could have been more viable, but losing that window was the end for Ocean Kai's viability.

I agree that it would have been ideal had this dub aired much sooner, and especially if it was the version Kix aired, but as long as Canada hasn't aired the Funimation dub I say better late than never.

[Robo4900]

Canada still hasn't aired Kai in any form, so there's always the chance a Canadian network will decide to air Kai, and from a business standpoint, it just makes sense to use the Ocean dub.

And if/when Turner UK finally resurrect Toonami UK, Ocean Kai would be a perfect headline act, so to speak.

[8000 Saiyan]

Canada still hasn't aired Kai in any form, so there's always the chance a Canadian network will decide to air Kai, and from a business standpoint, it just makes sense to use the Ocean dub.

And if/when Turner UK finally resurrect Toonami UK, Ocean Kai would be a perfect headline act, so to speak.

Do you really think they'll use the Ocean Kai dub if they resurrect Toonami UK?

[Dbzfan94]

Subjective, as no score given to Dragon Ball changed the tone as dramatically as Faloncer and other replacement scores for DBZ outside of Japan imo.

Funny you say that, because this statement is also subjective.

[Robo4900]

Do you really think they'll use the Ocean Kai dub if they resurrect Toonami UK?

Well, they've always historically used Ocean's dubs, and in fact the one time they switched over to Funimation, for the very beginning few episodes of the Fusion saga, they immediately switched back for all future re-airings, meaning they had to pay for the episodes twice.

I think they're more likely to use the Ocean dub than not to, given their history with it.

[MR.Mark]

Subjective, as no score given to Dragon Ball changed the tone as dramatically as Faloncer and other replacement scores for DBZ outside of Japan imo.

Funny you say that, because this statement is also subjective.

Well when the day a Japanese score gives Dragon Ball pure techno, trance, or mickey mousing the the visuals on screen, I'll agree with you.

[Danfun64]

I think Sumitomo's score has tracks that might fit the first two on that list. Definitely not the third though.

[ButtfaceKalinski]

TheBlackPaladin knows more about this particular subject but I think it's worth noting; At one point Schemmel made a Facebook post talking about the Westwood dub's scripts being similar to their Z scripts, and how he basically believed they might've been transcribing the dialogue, with the reason being that Funimation's Z dub made various script changes from within the booth so any script being given to Ocean wouldn't (in his opinion) have retained these changed lines, yet they were in the Westwood dub. The only reason I'm mentioning this is because it would back up what I'm saying about Schemmel knowing the difference between the Westwood/Ocean Z dub and Kai.

I don't think the right questions have ever been asked to the right people about what exactly the arrangements were regarding the sharing of resources between Texas and Canada, but they clearly had usage rights for the scripts and also made a minorly different product. I'd be shocked given the pace of production and the fact that the two shows were produced basically in parallel if they were expending the effort of transcribing hundreds of episodes.

[NitroEX]

I don't think the right questions have ever been asked to the right people about what exactly the arrangements were regarding the sharing of resources between Texas and Canada, but they clearly had usage rights for the scripts and also made a minorly different product. I'd be shocked given the pace of production and the fact that the two shows were produced basically in parallel if they were expending the effort of transcribing hundreds of episodes.

I think you are right. I've never personally believed there was any wrongdoing on the part of Ocean in that situation because if that were the case, Funimation would have been able to take legal action. All I was doing was relaying the story as I remembered it since I've not actually seen Schemmel's posts (which are now supposedly deleted anyway).