Dragon Ball Super's Biggest Plothole is Mr. Satan's Dialogue (And Here's Why)

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Dragon Ball Super's Biggest Plothole is Mr. Satan's Dialogue (And Here's Why)

Post by Cipher » Fri Dec 29, 2017 4:37 am

Hello everyone. I am here to deliver bad news.

Dragon Ball Super has a plothole.

It is a large plothole, and it cannot be fixed. I regret to inform you of this.

We all must live with the terrible burden of the knowledge I am about to deliver you.

Super's largest plothole is Mr. Satan's speech pattern.

"How could this be?" you might ask. Well buckle your seat belts because we're about to ride into foreign-language town and we aren't even stopping for snacks.

Late addition: (This is an actual thread about a small character-writing observation unique to Super, despite the jokey presentation.)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Japanese offers speakers both a plain form and a polite form, dependent on verb conjugations.

In the original run, Mr. Satan consistently uses the plain form while when speaking to Goku and co., even in the epilogue, while in Super, he consistently uses the polite form.

There are actually several levels of politeness in Japanese, but for this thread we only need to focus on the basic distinction between using either plain or polite verb endings while speaking.

If you're immersed in internet anime fandom at all, 1) I'm sorry, and 2) You may be familiar with polite speech as the "desu/-masu" form. While using the polite form, verbs take the endings "-masu," ます (present- and future-tense), "-mashita" ました (past-tense), or "-mashou" ましょう (volitional), and sentences ending with nouns are appended with "desu" です, a Japanese verb equivalent to the English "to be." There are lots of other little nuances that make the language softer, but those are the main ones.

Mr. Satan, while talking to Goku and co. in the original run, never really uses the polite form. Instead, his verbs take on rough casual endings, and noun sentences either end with the casual "da" だ or other less formal mutations.

This is consistent all the way through the Boo arc, including scenes in the manga's epilogue, taking place ten years after the main story. He notably does use the polite form while speaking to Boo, a holdover from their interactions earlier in the arc:

[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

But does not while speaking to Goku and co., even when he could. Here he is using the casual "da" だ sentence ending, as well as the casual imperative form. Nothing super rude, but he's not putting on any airs:

[spoiler]Image

Image[/spoiler]

(Granted, the last one is directed toward the younger Goten, but ...)

The closest he comes is using a truncated, extremely casual version of the polite ですか (desu ka) ending in this panel, reserved for superiors with whom the speaker shares a close relationship, but since he's trying to talk Goku down from the idea that anyone else could win the tournament, since that ending has a bit of a joking quality to it, and since he doesn't affect any polite speech in the first panel in which he responds to Goku, it reads more like putting on airs in the moment than being indicative of his general mode of conversation with them. At least as far as I can tell. If you're more versed in the language than I am (as several Kanzenshuu members are), feel free to be your own judge and offer corrections.

[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

In Super, however, set between the main events of the Boo arc and the original run's epilogue, he consistently uses polite speech. Much more polite than the casual mode used in the panel above, even if that were indicative of his standard interactions with them.

Here's an example taken from episode 92, as he receives Goku and shows him the sleeping Majin Boo:

[spoiler]
00:05:01,658 --> 00:05:05,658
(サタン)おっ!
悟空さん 待ってましたよ。


14
00:05:07,598 --> 00:05:09,600
ブウは?

15
00:05:09,600 --> 00:05:12,603
(ブウのいびき)

16
00:05:12,603 --> 00:05:14,605
ご覧のとおりなんです…。

17
00:05:14,605 --> 00:05:20,611
(いびき)

18
00:05:20,611 --> 00:05:24,615
よく寝てんなぁ…。
これ 起こせねえんか?

19
00:05:24,615 --> 00:05:28,619
私も 色々やったのですが…。
[/spoiler]
Whether you can read the full sentences or not, you can see the polite conjugations that end of each one. More than that, he actually dips a bit into the super-polite sonkeigo with the line "ご覧のとおりなんです…" (goran no toori nan desu/"as you can see"), which is far removed from anything we saw him do in the original run.

Counter 1. But does it just depend on the writer?

No.

The above example is from Super episode 92, written by Atsuhiro Tomioka, who consistently writes Mr. Satan's dialogue in the polite form.

But here's a snippet from episode 83, as they're planning their ten participants for the tournament, where writer Yoshifumi Fukushima has him doing the same thing:
[spoiler]
133
00:11:51,618 --> 00:11:55,622
これで7人。
サタン)あのう…。

134
00:11:55,622 --> 00:11:57,624
18号さんは どうですか?

135
00:11:57,624 --> 00:12:00,627
おお~! 18号か!
[/spoiler]

Counter 2. But that's only in the anime, right?

Sadly we're in no such luck. Even Toyotaro falls prey. Here's Mr. Satan asking Goku to accept the prize money and to keep their interaction secret:

[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
(Image not my own; thank you to user K E N on Discord.)

Note the polite "desu" (です) endings. (The "yokatta" (よかった!!) in the middle panel is an exclamation, so it gets a pass.)

Counter 3. Okay, well, he was just overly thankful after the events of the Boo arc and gradually became more relaxed with everyone to the point of slipping back into plain form.

Oh, you sweet summer child. In Z episode 288, which takes place roughly half a year after the events of the Boo arc, Mr. Satan has a few bits of dialogue, continuing to use the plain form with everyone. Even while speaking to Dende, a god.

[spoiler]
108
00:10:47,104 --> 00:10:50,774
(サタン)いいのか。
神様が パーティーになんて出て。


109
00:10:50,774 --> 00:10:53,777
(デンデ)
いいじゃないですか たまには。
[/spoiler]

So the question this leaves us with is:

What happened to the real Mr. Satan, and why is this one Zamasu?

EDIT -- By the way, Mr. Satan does not use the polite form in Battle of Gods outside of sucking up to Bulma's parents, though he also never speaks directly to Goku. I should also note that while this is a bit of a joke thread and it makes total sense for Mr. Satan to use the polite form while delivering the prize money, and even afterward, the difference is stark and somewhat at odds with his characterization in the epilogue and even in the film.

tl;dr: Mr. Satan more or less only ever used the plain form with the main cast in previous material, but consistently uses very polite Japanese forms with them in Super. It doesn't amount to much outside of goofy conclusions like the one presented here (hence the semi-serious tone), and the dialogue change completely makes sense given Mr. Satan's role in Super, but I thought it was somewhat interesting that it's a change completely unique to the series, as separate from Mr. Satan's post-Boo arc appearances in Z filler, the manga epilogue, or what we got in Battle of Gods. I'd never thought to check it before, and figured most other people wouldn't know either.

Further edits -- Super is perhaps picking up on something Kanzenshuu's own pronoun guide notes, which is that Mr. Satan switches from informal, masculine pronoun "ore" to the more subdued "watashi" by the time of the 28th Tenkaichi Budokai chapters. Super shows him making that pronoun switch, at least around Goku and co., just after the events of the Boo arc, though he still treats them with a level of reverence not found in other material or in his brief exchange with Goku in those chapters.
Last edited by Cipher on Fri Dec 29, 2017 2:08 pm, edited 39 times in total.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super's Biggest Plothole is Mr. Satan's Speech Pattern (And Here's Why)

Post by Freeza9000 » Fri Dec 29, 2017 4:47 am

My only regret is not knowing where HERCULE SAMA ranks in the hierarchy of power and remains such an enigma that stains the entire DB franchise.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super's Biggest Plothole is Mr. Satan's Speech Pattern (And Here's Why)

Post by precita » Fri Dec 29, 2017 5:10 am

And this is why Dragonball Super should be canceled, Toei's writers have no idea what they're doing and the franchise has jumped the shark.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super's Biggest Plothole is Mr. Satan's Speech Pattern (And Here's Why)

Post by Cipher » Fri Dec 29, 2017 5:24 am

precita wrote:And this is why Dragonball Super should be canceled, Toei's writers have no idea what they're doing and the franchise has jumped the shark.
That's a reasonable take based on what I just posted.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super's Biggest Plothole is Mr. Satan's Dialogue (And Here's Why)

Post by Torturephile » Fri Dec 29, 2017 9:39 am

I disagree, the biggest plot hole in Super is Mrs. Brief never closing her eyes anymore.
From Super episode 113 thread:
MaskedRider wrote:
Torturephile wrote:
hunduel wrote:I liked this episode. I seriously don't know why people hate it.
namekiansaiyan wrote:I seriously don't see why some of you like this episode when nothing happened and was basically filler.
The fandom in a nutshell.
The duality of man.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super's Biggest Plothole is Mr. Satan's Dialogue (And Here's Why)

Post by Cipher » Fri Dec 29, 2017 10:04 am

Torturephile wrote:I disagree, the biggest plot hole in Super is Mrs. Brief never closing her eyes anymore.
These are both really big plotholes.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super's Biggest Plothole is Mr. Satan's Dialogue (And Here's Why)

Post by Michsi » Fri Dec 29, 2017 10:18 am

Imposter detected!

But why stop there? Goku's exaggerated casualness? Piccolo forgetting how to hear? Vegeta's character development going down the drain? All fake!

[spoiler]The speech pattern thing is interesting, but is this something that would go unnoticed in-universe ?[/spoiler]

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Re: Dragon Ball Super's Biggest Plothole is Mr. Satan's Dialogue (And Here's Why)

Post by Lord Beerus » Fri Dec 29, 2017 10:34 am

Have you taken into account how this affects the power scaling? Because that's where the real inconsistencies lie when you add it all together.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super's Biggest Plothole is Mr. Satan's Dialogue (And Here's Why)

Post by Super Sayian Prime » Fri Dec 29, 2017 11:14 am

Your monthly "Dragon Ball fandom as seen by SNL" skits aren't very funny. If you hate the community this much, just leave.
"I like the money it brings in, but Dragon Ball Heroes is the worst. That's actually the real reason I decided to start working on new material. I was afraid Bandai would make something irredeemably stupid like Super Saiyan 4 Broly." - Akira Toriyama, made up interview, 2013.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super's Biggest Plothole is Mr. Satan's Dialogue (And Here's Why)

Post by Cipher » Fri Dec 29, 2017 11:50 am

Super Saiyan Prime wrote:Your monthly "Dragon Ball fandom as seen by SNL" skits aren't very funny. If you hate the community this much, just leave.
This might have been a little overbaked, and I apologize. Despite the fandom lob it's dressed up in, the observation on the character-writing here is genuine. I just felt it was simultaneously too small a detail, while requiring too much explanation/evidence, to present dryly. Maybe that didn't come across, and that's on me.

Change the wording of the thread a bit mentally if it suits you. I'm not out to actually ruin anyone's day.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super's Biggest Plothole is Mr. Satan's Dialogue (And Here's Why)

Post by Super Sayian Prime » Fri Dec 29, 2017 12:39 pm

Cipher wrote:
Super Saiyan Prime wrote:Your monthly "Dragon Ball fandom as seen by SNL" skits aren't very funny. If you hate the community this much, just leave.
This might have been a little overbaked, and I apologize. Despite the fandom lob it's dressed up in, the observation on the character-writing here is genuine. I just felt it was simultaneously too small a detail, while requiring too much explanation/evidence, to present dryly. Maybe that didn't come across, and that's on me.

Change the wording of the thread a bit mentally if it suits you. I'm not out to actually ruin anyone's day.
My issue is that this is a constant with you. You literally haven't made a single thread in calendar 2017 that wasn't about fandom. Some of it's entirely innouncous. However, the majority consists of your blistering shitposts mocking it. Yeah, I get it. Dragon Ball fans tend to overreact to minutiae. Dragon Ball fans love to speculate over nothing. Some Dragon Ball fans might just be bad people. A member who consistently feels the need to remind others of that in a forum for the fanbase is beyond annoying. The amount of times you've done it and the effort you've put into some of this tells me this isn't just a "Oh you, Dragon Ball fans" joke. It's just plain toxic behaviour from someone who clearly has an axe to grind.
"I like the money it brings in, but Dragon Ball Heroes is the worst. That's actually the real reason I decided to start working on new material. I was afraid Bandai would make something irredeemably stupid like Super Saiyan 4 Broly." - Akira Toriyama, made up interview, 2013.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super's Biggest Plothole is Mr. Satan's Dialogue (And Here's Why)

Post by SSJ YUSUKE » Fri Dec 29, 2017 12:50 pm

Super Saiyan Prime wrote:
Cipher wrote:
Super Saiyan Prime wrote:Your monthly "Dragon Ball fandom as seen by SNL" skits aren't very funny. If you hate the community this much, just leave.
This might have been a little overbaked, and I apologize. Despite the fandom lob it's dressed up in, the observation on the character-writing here is genuine. I just felt it was simultaneously too small a detail, while requiring too much explanation/evidence, to present dryly. Maybe that didn't come across, and that's on me.

Change the wording of the thread a bit mentally if it suits you. I'm not out to actually ruin anyone's day.
My issue is that this is a constant with you. You literally haven't made a single thread in calendar 2017 that wasn't about fandom. Some of it's entirely innouncous. However, the majority consists of your blistering shitposts mocking it. Yeah, I get it. Dragon Ball fans tend to overreact to minutiae. Dragon Ball fans love to speculate over nothing. Some Dragon Ball fans might just be bad people. A member who consistently feels the need to remind others of that in a forum for the fanbase is beyond annoying. The amount of times you've done it and the effort you've put into some of this tells me this isn't just a "Oh you, Dragon Ball fans" joke. It's just plain toxic behaviour from someone who clearly has an axe to grind.
The constant moaning about Super from fans on this board is not only more toxic but also more prevelant.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super's Biggest Plothole is Mr. Satan's Dialogue (And Here's Why)

Post by Super Sayian Prime » Fri Dec 29, 2017 12:59 pm

Yeah, and there's a thread about that. At least they're ranting about the show rather than offering up passive aggressive metacommentary.
"I like the money it brings in, but Dragon Ball Heroes is the worst. That's actually the real reason I decided to start working on new material. I was afraid Bandai would make something irredeemably stupid like Super Saiyan 4 Broly." - Akira Toriyama, made up interview, 2013.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super's Biggest Plothole is Mr. Satan's Dialogue (And Here's Why)

Post by precita » Fri Dec 29, 2017 3:33 pm

Super Saiyan Prime wrote:
Cipher wrote:
Super Saiyan Prime wrote:Your monthly "Dragon Ball fandom as seen by SNL" skits aren't very funny. If you hate the community this much, just leave.
This might have been a little overbaked, and I apologize. Despite the fandom lob it's dressed up in, the observation on the character-writing here is genuine. I just felt it was simultaneously too small a detail, while requiring too much explanation/evidence, to present dryly. Maybe that didn't come across, and that's on me.

Change the wording of the thread a bit mentally if it suits you. I'm not out to actually ruin anyone's day.
My issue is that this is a constant with you. You literally haven't made a single thread in calendar 2017 that wasn't about fandom. Some of it's entirely innouncous. However, the majority consists of your blistering shitposts mocking it. Yeah, I get it. Dragon Ball fans tend to overreact to minutiae. Dragon Ball fans love to speculate over nothing. Some Dragon Ball fans might just be bad people. A member who consistently feels the need to remind others of that in a forum for the fanbase is beyond annoying. The amount of times you've done it and the effort you've put into some of this tells me this isn't just a "Oh you, Dragon Ball fans" joke. It's just plain toxic behaviour from someone who clearly has an axe to grind.
Insert "No fun allowed" pic here.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super's Biggest Plothole is Mr. Satan's Dialogue (And Here's Why)

Post by Torturephile » Fri Dec 29, 2017 5:14 pm

Super Saiyan Prime wrote:
Cipher wrote:
Super Saiyan Prime wrote:Your monthly "Dragon Ball fandom as seen by SNL" skits aren't very funny. If you hate the community this much, just leave.
This might have been a little overbaked, and I apologize. Despite the fandom lob it's dressed up in, the observation on the character-writing here is genuine. I just felt it was simultaneously too small a detail, while requiring too much explanation/evidence, to present dryly. Maybe that didn't come across, and that's on me.

Change the wording of the thread a bit mentally if it suits you. I'm not out to actually ruin anyone's day.
My issue is that this is a constant with you. You literally haven't made a single thread in calendar 2017 that wasn't about fandom. Some of it's entirely innouncous. However, the majority consists of your blistering shitposts mocking it. Yeah, I get it. Dragon Ball fans tend to overreact to minutiae. Dragon Ball fans love to speculate over nothing. Some Dragon Ball fans might just be bad people. A member who consistently feels the need to remind others of that in a forum for the fanbase is beyond annoying. The amount of times you've done it and the effort you've put into some of this tells me this isn't just a "Oh you, Dragon Ball fans" joke. It's just plain toxic behaviour from someone who clearly has an axe to grind.
I think some of those threads you linked are quite clever without bordering into "the fandom is garbage" territory.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super's Biggest Plothole is Mr. Satan's Dialogue (And Here's Why)

Post by BWri » Fri Dec 29, 2017 7:08 pm

Super Saiyan Prime wrote:
Cipher wrote:
Super Saiyan Prime wrote:Your monthly "Dragon Ball fandom as seen by SNL" skits aren't very funny. If you hate the community this much, just leave.
This might have been a little overbaked, and I apologize. Despite the fandom lob it's dressed up in, the observation on the character-writing here is genuine. I just felt it was simultaneously too small a detail, while requiring too much explanation/evidence, to present dryly. Maybe that didn't come across, and that's on me.

Change the wording of the thread a bit mentally if it suits you. I'm not out to actually ruin anyone's day.
My issue is that this is a constant with you. You literally haven't made a single thread in calendar 2017 that wasn't about fandom. Some of it's entirely innouncous. However, the majority consists of your blistering shitposts mocking it. Yeah, I get it. Dragon Ball fans tend to overreact to minutiae. Dragon Ball fans love to speculate over nothing. Some Dragon Ball fans might just be bad people. A member who consistently feels the need to remind others of that in a forum for the fanbase is beyond annoying. The amount of times you've done it and the effort you've put into some of this tells me this isn't just a "Oh you, Dragon Ball fans" joke. It's just plain toxic behaviour from someone who clearly has an axe to grind.
Thanks for providing all the links! But honestly these posts are pretty funny and don't feel like the posts of someone who has an axe to grind with the fandom even when viewed together.
Big fan of the characters of Dragon Ball, all of them, especially formerly prominent sub-characters. -__-

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Re: Dragon Ball Super's Biggest Plothole is Mr. Satan's Dialogue (And Here's Why)

Post by Cipher » Sat Dec 30, 2017 5:32 am

Thanks, guys, though in this case I already hashed things out via PM and wish I hadn't gone the "plothole" route, as it seems to have obscured the minor but somewhat interesting thing I really did want to point out about Mr. Satan's writing in the original run (even through Battle of Gods) vs. Super proper.

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