"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[sintzu]

Wouldn't Goku become about 5x weaker when he transformed into SSB as well ?

I think the stamina issues happen when they transform again after powering down form a previous transformation.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

Alright, here's pretty much everything important.

---------Part 1---------
Goku does indeed use Super Saiyan God in the manga version. Goten calls it Super Saiyan Red, but Trunks corrects him for being dumb and tells him it's Super Saiyan God. So they seem to be making fun of themselves.

Goku has the ability to transform and make himself stronger than Hit, but his Time-Skip is troublesome. So he conserves energy throughout the battle by transforming to only the stage he needs at the time.

Goku in Super Saiyan God is stated to be stronger than Vegeta in Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan (while fighting Hit), and Goku can still utilize the latter transformation himself to grow even stronger. (Feels like karma for the anime bullshit of having Vegeta skip SSG.)

No SSGSS Kaio-ken.

---------Part 2---------
Fun note. Hit doesn't use ki/stamina to perform his Time-Skip. He can use it indefinitely without weakening himself, but can't use it when drained. As he states that he might only be able to handle one more Time-Skip at full power before it runs out.

Goku is stronger than Hit in terms of pure power with just SS, but he uses up too much stamina to keep up in that form. Goes SSG.

Hit can only fully Time-Stop opponents for the full 0.1 seconds if they're weaker than him. The further they are above him, the less it lasts. So when goku goes SSG, he has trouble holding him back the full time.

Unlike the anime where hit has a set level of power at first, and then later makes huge gains to his power and improved Time-Skip via "growth", Manga!Hit is just hiding his true power at first and unleashes it to counter SSG. He says it's been so long since he used it, that it may not even last a minute.

My biggest issue with the anime is solved here. Goku doesn't ask for the tournament to be turned into a death match. He realizes that, being an assassin, Hit is restricted by the rules. So he just exits the ring and asks to fight again some other time.

Vegeta isn't significantly weaker than Goku after all. Transforming into SSGSS burns through a lot of stamina and power. You can't use it multiple times in a row, even in short bursts. Transforming to show off for Cabba rended him to around 1/10 his full power against Hit.

Zeno's assistants don't seem to say Arale's "Bye'cha", at least not in the Korean version. That's...something.. I guess?

[Xeztin]

Is it possible that Toyotaro purposefully changed some things from Toriyama's plot outline so it wasn't so similar to the anime?

I think it's the other way around, In my opinion Toei changed some things from Toriyama's plot so they could sell a new toy of SSJB Kaio-ken. That two aura thing looks more like a Toei thing then something Toriyama would do. Toei probably wants a new form every arc to sell for merch. It's very possible either way.

[HeroR]

I much prefer the anime version, even if it's nice to see Super Saiyan God again (even though it makes no sense, but whatever).

That happened in the anime while we never got a full version of RoF in the manga so you can disregard that while referring to the manga. I'm looking at both the manga and anime as two alternate takes on the same story. When you try to fit elements from one into the other it's going to cause confusion with contradictions [/quote]

But Toyotaro did do parts of Resurrection 'F'. Outside of some bits here and there, it was exactly like the movie, including Goku beating Freeza up in his base form. So it can be assume that he beat Golden Freeza because of stamina issues since that is what happened in Toriyama's script and the movie. Also, Whis said that Vegeta was always behind Goku because he was too tense, not because he didn't do the god ritual.

Losing 1/10 of your strength by transforming is just out there since Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan up to this point has been presented as a steady, fuel-effiect transformation. Especially in the anime where Goku brags about it having great ki control and Toriyama even called it a calm state in his notes, which is why he chose the color blue.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

If transforming drains 90% of their power, then the form is pretty much useless.

It drained Vegeta's 90% of his power because he transformed twice. Goku only transformed once against Freeza & Hit, which is why he didn't have any problems.

[Khin]

Is it possible that Toyotaro purposefully changed some things from Toriyama's plot outline so it wasn't so similar to the anime?

I think it's the other way around, In my opinion Toei changed some things from Toriyama's plot so they could sell a new toy of SSJB Kaio-ken.

Except you can also sell toys with Super Saiyan God + RoF outfit. Seems to me that Toriyama just let the two do whatever they want.

[Cetra]

No Divine Kaiouken is a shame. Then it also is apparently one of the anime team's ideas. Which I have no problem with.

[Doctor.]

Completely and absolutely hate, hate, hate this chapter. There's almost nothing good about it.

AF's story wasn't written by Toyble or any of the characters in it, nothing was really his own idea. He took a bunch of ideas on the internet about "AF" and made it into one story, even Xicor wasn't his creation. I don't think Toyotaro is the type to write his own story, I think personally SSG was the original call from Toriyama while Toei wanted a new toy they could sell with the Kaio-Ken thing. I just can't see him making that drastic of a change if SSJB Kaio-ken was the original call.

The concepts weren't his own but a good writer can still make bad concepts into a good story. Look at the new Super story arc. "Evil Goku" is such a common concept among fanfiction, most people would say it's a bad one too. A good writer can and will turn that concept into a great story. Toyotaro borrowed a ton of concepts from the fanbase, a ton of bad concepts, and instead of improving on them and make them interesting, the stories he produced were all terrible.

I think Toriyama just told both the anime staff and Toyotaro to do whatever the hell they want. Probably the only thing he wrote is "SSB Goku fights against Hit" or something similar.

[namekiansaiyan]

The anime makes Hit look better and it also has a good reason why Goku is stronger than Vegeta it is also more epic to have kaioken. Having SSRed In the manga makes no sense as why didn't Goku just go to SSBlue straight away.

[Xeztin]

Alright, here's pretty much everything important.

---------Part 1---------
Goku does indeed use Super Saiyan God in the manga version. Goten calls it Super Saiyan Red, but Trunks corrects him for being dumb and tells him it's Super Saiyan God. So they seem to be making fun of themselves.

Goku has the ability to transform and make himself stronger than Hit, but his Time-Skip is troublesome. So he conserves energy throughout the battle by transforming to only the stage he needs at the time.

Goku in Super Saiyan God is stated to be stronger than Vegeta in Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan (while fighting Hit), and Goku can still utilize the latter transformation himself to grow even stronger. (Feels like karma for the anime bullshit of having Vegeta skip SSG.)

No SSGSS Kaio-ken.

---------Part 2---------
Fun note. Hit doesn't use ki/stamina to perform his Time-Skip. He can use it indefinitely without weakening himself, but can't use it when drained. As he states that he might only be able to handle one more Time-Skip at full power before it runs out.

Goku is stronger than Hit in terms of pure power with just SS, but he uses up too much stamina to keep up in that form. Goes SSG.

Hit can only fully Time-Stop opponents for the full 0.1 seconds if they're weaker than him. The further they are above him, the less it lasts. So when goku goes SSG, he has trouble holding him back the full time.

Unlike the anime where hit has a set level of power at first, and then later makes huge gains to his power and improved Time-Skip via "growth", Manga!Hit is just hiding his true power at first and unleashes it to counter SSG. He says it's been so long since he used it, that it may not even last a minute.

My biggest issue with the anime is solved here. Goku doesn't ask for the tournament to be turned into a death match. He realizes that, being an assassin, Hit is restricted by the rules. So he just exits the ring and asks to fight again some other time.

Vegeta isn't significantly weaker than Goku after all. Transforming into SSGSS burns through a lot of stamina and power. You can't use it multiple times in a row, even in short bursts. Transforming to show off for Cabba rended him to around 1/10 his full power against Hit.

Zeno's assistants don't seem to say Arale's "Bye'cha", at least not in the Korean version. That's...something.. I guess?

Do we have clarification that SSG is only stronger than Vegeta's SSJB when he is weakened? or that SSG is stronger than Vegeta's SSJB being weakened or not?

[ekrolo2]

The anime and manga are two different continuities, being annoyed that Blue isn't a super efficient state in the manga where nothing of the sort about it was ever mentioned about it.

[ryou766]

So, the manga might skip over the Monaka costume bit and the whole unbearable Purple-Vegeta arc?

[ArchedThunder]

Is it possible that Toyotaro purposefully changed some things from Toriyama's plot outline so it wasn't so similar to the anime?

I think it's the other way around, In my opinion Toei changed some things from Toriyama's plot so they could sell a new toy of SSJB Kaio-ken.

Except you can also sell toys with Super Saiyan God + RoF outfit. Seems to me that Toriyama just let the two do whatever they want.

Yeah, Toei could have done God and Kaioken if they wanted, the whole going Super Saiyan God thing really feels like it was Toyotaro's idea.
Goku being able to go God whenever he wants seems like to significant of a thing to just leave out of the anime version, I really doubt it was in the outline.

[dbgtFO]

Losing 1/10 of your strength by transforming is just out there since Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan up to this point has been presented as a steady, fuel-effiect transformation.

It's even worse than that..

Transforming into SSGSS burns through a lot of stamina and power. You can't use it multiple times in a row, even in short bursts. Transforming to show off for Cabba rended him to around 1/10 his full power against Hit.

[/quote]
So Vegeta lost 90% of his power just by showing off SSB??!!!

[Xeztin]

Completely and absolutely hate, hate, hate this chapter. There's almost nothing good about it.

AF's story wasn't written by Toyble or any of the characters in it, nothing was really his own idea. He took a bunch of ideas on the internet about "AF" and made it into one story, even Xicor wasn't his creation. I don't think Toyotaro is the type to write his own story, I think personally SSG was the original call from Toriyama while Toei wanted a new toy they could sell with the Kaio-Ken thing. I just can't see him making that drastic of a change if SSJB Kaio-ken was the original call.

The concepts weren't his own but a good writer can still make bad concepts into a good story. Look at the new Super story arc. "Evil Goku" is such a common concept among fanfiction, most people would say it's a bad one too. A good writer can and will turn that concept into a great story. Toyotaro borrowed a ton of concepts from the fanbase, a ton of bad concepts, and instead of improving on them and make them interesting, the stories he produced were all terrible.

I think Toriyama just told both the anime staff and Toyotaro to do whatever the hell they want. Probably the only thing he wrote is "SSB Goku fights against Hit" or something similar.

It's a strong possibility, I suppose we might not know until the next interview, maybe not even then.

[Grimlock]

So, the manga might skip over the Monaka costume bit and the whole unbearable Purple-Vegeta arc?

Why should it cover it when that was sure and entirely a Toei's thing? It's good that the manga almost caught up with the anime.

[Sodhi]

So, the manga might skip over the Monaka costume bit and the whole unbearable Purple-Vegeta arc?

Yea according to the release the trunks arc takes place right after the end of tournament arc. So I dont imagine it being in the manga, as it is already behind.

[sintzu]

No Divine Kaiouken is a shame. Then it also is apparently one of the anime team's ideas. Which I have no problem with.

The problem is that change made a huge plot hole regarding Beerus' power and the Kaioken might never show up again which will create more plot holes whenever Goku doesn't use it.

[ryou766]

So, the manga might skip over the Monaka costume bit and the whole unbearable Purple-Vegeta arc?

Yea according to the release the trunks arc takes place right after the end of tournament arc. So I dont imagine it being in the manga, as it is already behind.

That's a relief.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

Do we have clarification that SSG is only stronger than Vegeta's SSJB when he is weakened? or that SSG is stronger than Vegeta's SSJB being weakened or not?

Only when weakened. SSGSS Vegeta should be mostly on par with SSGSS Goku.

Hit has trouble Time-Stopping SSG Goku. Beerus asks why it managed to work on SSGSS Vegeta then, and Whis replies that's because Vegeta was weakened to ~10%. Later, Vegeta asks why Goku gave up when he had the match won. A few lines later, Goku says Vegeta probably could have won too, if he hadn't wasted energy transforming for Cabba.