Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Marlowe89]

This was actually said in there? That pretty much seals the deal on Saiyan beyond God.

And an in-universe example of the two base theory. It would imply they can flip it on and off without a visual indicator.

I have never heard of this. Ever.
TheSaiyanGod, I would like to see the source please

Found it:

[spoiler][/spoiler]

If the translation is accurate, then it does state that the "God-like power" is something Saiyans would need to "gain control" over and that they can do this without changing form. It's also yet another confirmation that SSB is the Super Saiyan equivalent of these "God-like Saiyans".

So either there are indeed two bases after all or there's only one base + a retcon, since Goku can clearly still access his plain vanilla Super Saiyan forms. Either way I wish the franchise would have done a better job of providing some clarification on this within the series itself, so take it as you will.

[ZombieVito]

I think that ends the debate IMO.

"They can gain control of god-like power without changing form".

That's as clear cut as you can be.

[Marlowe89]

I think that ends the debate IMO.

"They can gain control of god-like power without changing form".

That's as clear cut as you can be.

To be entirely honest with you, I think it ends the debate too. You'll always have people rejecting the very possibilty of two bases though, seemingly on principle alone.

In all fairness, I can't blame them. The show almost seems to gloss over it at times and does very little to acknowledge it even though I still think a few episodes attempted to imply it at one point.

[Bullza]

How has that never been posted here before?

If it actually is accurate then why on earth couldn't the show have just explained this? A mere 30 seconds of dialogue would have avoided a ton of confusion for the past year and half.

It does again give credence to the idea that if they turn Blonde then they weren't using this God power beforehand.

Is the Japanese image of that available anywhere? It'd be useful to run it by the translation thread and see what people have to say.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

There is no second base. They don't have a second base that's above all of their forms except for Blue. I don't know why people are incapable of using common sense. We already saw Goku using god power in his base form in the ROF manga. The text isn't saying anything new, it's just reiterating what we already saw. Once again, people are being obtuse.

They can control god power in their base to an extent. That's still their only base form. They use all of their forms off that one base.

[Marlowe89]

How has that never been posted here before?

According to reverse Google image search, apparently it has been posted here on Kanzenshuu. Several times, in fact. I guess people just kinda skimmed over it including myself.

Is the Japanese image of that available anywhere? It'd be useful to run it by the translation thread and see what people have to say.

Sadly I don't have the original scan, but according to the website that translated it the image was scanned from an issue of "V Jump +" which included a mini-artbook of Resurrection F.

Here's the source article in question: http://www.shonengamez.com/2015/04/22/v ... tion-of-f/ -- for what it's worth, ShonenGamez is fairly reputable for translating various Japanese magazines and advertisements.

[Ki Breaker]

I have never heard of this. Ever.
TheSaiyanGod, I would like to see the source please

Found it:

[spoiler][/spoiler]

The hell
How did I miss such a thing..
It's as clear as it can be there exists a base with god ki and a base without, it's basically the official two base theory..

That's it boys, we got what we wanted, it makes a lot of sense now, now for the real question..
Why did they not spend seconds to explain this

[emperior]

So two-base is confirmed? It makes sense, I always felt like Goku and Vegeta weren't far from their Buu Saga levels as SSJs.

[ChiefWamsutta]

"It is said that Saiyans can gain control of god-like power without changing forms."

"God-like power" implies that it is only the POWER of Super Saiyan God and not God Ki. This works because Goku has never not been sensed when he had black hair.

"Without changing forms" this specifically means that when Vegeta and Goku do not have God-like power they will be black-haired, and when they do have God-like power they will be black-haired.

"But if those God-like Saiyans change into Super Saiyans ... then the power of a Super Saiyan God SS is born." This further confirms that SSBlue is the Super Saiyan version of SSGod.

This is great because it is all consistent with what we have seen in the DBS anime. Now we are at here:

[avasatu]

Seems open and shut with that translation. Hadn't seen that before. Nice find.

Do we just disregard SS God red in the manga as manga shenanigans? Do we just chalk up Goku going SSB vs 17 to him showing off? The main issue there is that he can't sense 17's ki, so he would have no reason to suspect he'd need the massive power boost from SSB compared to SS2, say. Then again, Goku never uses SS2 these days...

Given that the two base theory seems to be correct, so that Goku/Vegeta were likely in "god base" while fighting Black, what is the best explanation of Trunks' power? What is the weakest he can possibly be for his fights to make sense?

[Ki Breaker]

Now that I have official confirmation, this is what I am going with as well, rather this is now Canon, embrace it

[ChiefWamsutta]

So after acquiring confirmation about the Two-Base Theory here is my idea how to link everything together:

Goku during DBZ had Base, SS1, SS2, SS3.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Then he and the other Earth Saiyans did the ritual and he became Super Saiyan God.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

During his fight with Beerus he turns back into a Super Saiyan, but is still just as strong. Beerus explains that the power merged with Goku. I would modify this and say that Beerus is slightly wrong ... the power only partially merged with his being. This is why we only see the God-like Super Saiyan once. ... The power wasn't done merging.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Goku fights Beerus one last time and their attacks create a sun ball that is heading towards Earth. In order to stop it Goku needs more power. During his fight, he turns from a Super Saiyan into Base form. Surprisingly, this change to a weaker form gives him enough power to defeat the sun ball. That's because the SSGod power fully merged with him in that moment. He now only has a powerful Base.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Goku meets up with Whis and Vegeta (who accessed the red-haired god form on his own. Vegeta then had the power partially merge into his Super Saiyan form and then fully merge into his Base form like Goku). In order to gain more power and control, Whis teaches them to not let their ki leak out. They go into the Staff Dimension and achieve SSBlue. Now the two of them have Merged SSGod Base and SSBlue when they fight Frieza.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

After defeating Frieza, Goku and Vegeta learn of the other universes. They are recruited to be part of the U7 team. In order to prepare for this, they train in the RoSaT. During this time, Goku and Vegeta master ki control to an even greater level, allowing them to access mortal forms such as Base, SS1, SS2, SS3 in addition to New SSG and SSBlue.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

After the tournament they retain all of these forms. It can be said that Goku fought Botamo, Frost, #17, Krillin, and Bergamo in Base form. He fought Beerus' Sun Ball, Hit, RoF Final Form Frieza, Copy-Vegeta, Monaka-Beerus, Slim Buu in black-haired SSG form. We can make this conclusion because Goku turns into SS1 against Krillin, #17, Frost and Bergamo, which means he wasn't using God-like power. He turned SSBlue against Hit, RoF Frieza, and Copy-Vegeta, so he was using New SSG. Monaka-Beerus and Slim Buu make sense to be New SSG since both of those characters are strong and he could not handle them in Base alone.

Goku Black must have been using New SSG but didn't have full access to it. I believe it was stated in the show that he gained more of Goku's power the longer he fought.

When Vegito appeared in the Future Trunks arc, he must have used New SSG just before he turned SSBlue. Copy-Vegeta must also have been fighting in New SSG, as Base could not beat SS3 Gotenks.

I think this solves everything, basically.

[Ki Breaker]

I like how it proves none of universe 6 fighters were even close to SS2 in power let alone god levels, expect hit..
So much for frost being stonger than SSG..

Now the question arises why didn't goku use his god base against 17

[Arg]

Now the question arises why didn't goku use his god base against 17

Testing the waters, he probably estimated 17 to be strong enough to jump straight into SSB after.

[Draconic]

Well, as one of the biggest detractors of the two base theory, this is what I've been waiting for all along. An acknowledgement from an official source. Too bad after a bunch of training episodes with Whis, we couldn't get even a tiny line confirming it in the actual show. But now I'm satisfied. It means at least someone is thinking about two bases when writing, even if it's not always 100% consistent.

Where was this all this time?

Also, wouldn't this mean that the manga and anime scale is pretty much identic, outside of Kaioken/Blue's stamina drain and Trunks' Rage form/SSJ3-tier SSJ2? Certainly makes things easier, since the two already complimented themselves pretty well, outside of the power levels, but now they are closer than originally thought.

[LowRyder2005]

Personally speaking, I don't think it adds anything new in regards to what we already knew; it was probably forgotten since the speculation that Goku and Vegeta could turn the godly power on and off was born, in itself, when Goku turned Super Saiyan in the regular manga. This happened way after the ROF movie and its respective adaptation.
I guess viewers and readers back then had internalized the general idea that Goku and Vegeta were super powerful in base, and didn't really felt the need to focus that much on the statements reported above. In retrospect, of course, or basically after months and months of those two turning into regular Super Saiyans I suppose it could be seen as a little more quaint.

At most, I see the most interesting tidbit being the usual notion that Goku and Vegeta were (at the very least originally) intended to follow the rule that "by going Super Saiyan, godly-empowered Saiyans turn Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan". Given these particular conditions, it reinforces the idea that when Goku or Vegeta go Super Saiyan they may - or perhaps even should - not be using their godly powers at all.

[TheMikado]

I love how this just now comes out haha. But now we still have the power escalation that's happening in Super also Krillin forcing Goku SSJ. Not to mention 17 pushing him to SSB when Goku could have used his God base in the anime. Come to think of it, there's a ton of times Goku could have used his God base and didn't so I'm convinced only half the writers of Super know this is a thing and the other half don't... which would be idk ridiculous.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Given how this seems to have come out alongside the RoF movie, unless I'm mistaken, we shouldn't put too much stock into it for the anime, which made multiple small changes to the story.

Not to mention that the anime has constantly hammered in how the process of transforming into a SSB is based on tapping into the power/Godly Ki of SSG with the SS state, like the first in-series transformation by Goku against Freeza where he was surrounded by a golden SS aura before turning SSB, Vegeta in the Universe 6/7 Tournament seamlessly going from SS to SSB for Cabba, and the opening of the Universal Survival Arc having Goku turn SS and then SSB.

All other instances have simply been from base form, which can also be done for the evolutions of the SS form such as SS2 and SS3.

A lot of in-universe statements and implications paint Goku and Vegeta as super strong, but not being at god-level beyond SSB.

[Lord Beerus]

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Can't believe something like this was posted in the forum in the past and ignored. This resolves 95% of the power scaling issues in Super. The two base theory is now a thing. I just wish the anime or the manga could have spared some time to explain this.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Can't believe something like this was posted in the forum in the past and ignored. This resolves 95% of the power scaling issues in Super. The two base theory is now a thing. I just wish the anime or the manga could have spared some time to explain this.

See my post above. This really only applies to the movie, and it was already clearly working off the "god-level overall" interpretation.

The anime has befuddled things and added extra details compounded by the material that came after it.

I fail to see how this proves anything beyond "it was that way in the movie, but doesn't look to be the same in the anime adaptation". You guys need to stop saying this "proves" anything, just say that it "might support". Don't latch onto this singular datapoint so strongly without the additional context.