Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[DBZ Macky]

I really like this idea of using small multipliers, but that is canonically not true as per Zamasu's statement. Instead, I have adopted the notion that as the average power level of the show increases, it takes a wider margin of power dominance to have a substantial edge over an opponent. For example: in the early Namek saga, you could have a 20ish% edge on someone and one shot them, but in the current DBS, it would take a 2-5x margin to have the same effect.

Well, it's not necessarily inaccurate, but I can't even imagine the humongous bloat that such an approach would cause.
I follow the 2 base-theory (kinda) in that Goku suppresses himself in base, and can still increase his power by 50/100/400x. At full power, he's stronger than a SSG but gets smaller boosts for his SS forms, with SSB only being like a 1.25x-ish boost, or maybe 1.5x.

The multipliers changing is kinda supported by Toriyama stating that Goku would focus on increasing his power in his base and Super Saiyan forms. I always thought that "Saiyan Beyond God" and SSGSS was what he was referring to, and Goku won't actually be able to power-up from SS2 and SS3.

There is too much headcanon, but that's a necessity at this point.

[avasatu]

I really like this idea of using small multipliers, but that is canonically not true as per Zamasu's statement. Instead, I have adopted the notion that as the average power level of the show increases, it takes a wider margin of power dominance to have a substantial edge over an opponent. For example: in the early Namek saga, you could have a 20ish% edge on someone and one shot them, but in the current DBS, it would take a 2-5x margin to have the same effect.

Well, it's not necessarily inaccurate, but I can't even imagine the humongous bloat that such an approach would cause.
I follow the 2 base-theory (kinda) in that Goku suppresses himself in base, and can still increase his power by 50/100/400x. At full power, he's stronger than a SSG but gets smaller boosts for his SS forms, with SSB only being like a 1.25x-ish boost, or maybe 1.5x.

The multipliers changing is kinda supported by Toriyama stating that Goku would focus on increasing his power in his base and Super Saiyan forms. I always thought that "Saiyan Beyond God" and SSGSS was what he was referring to, and Goku won't actually be able to power-up from SS2 and SS3.

There is too much headcanon, but that's a necessity at this point.

Fair enough. You could also think of the 20%-one-shot rule as having been retconned, if you prefer less bloat. I was gung-ho on two base theory up until recently. I think the show is trying to show us a different picture than that, and I just can't imagine the particulars of what it is despite some moderate effort on my part. Unfortunately, this change of heart I'm experiencing requires me to either accept a retcon of (at least) BoG, or to accept that Goku's single base is indeed > Beerus arc SSG, which there is plenty of evidence against (and for). It seems to me that I'm forced to consider a retcon, which I absolutely hate to do. I think even in the case of a retcon, we can assume base Goku keeps at least enough power from inheriting the essence of his god form that he can match Vegeta post 6 months of training with Whis.

[DBZ Macky]

Fair enough. You could also think of the 20%-one-shot rule as having been retconned, if you prefer less bloat. I was gung-ho on two base theory up until recently. I think the show is trying to show us a different picture than that, and I just can't imagine the particulars of what it is despite some moderate effort on my part. Unfortunately, this change of heart I'm experiencing requires me to either accept a retcon of (at least) BoG, or to accept that Goku's single base is indeed > Beerus arc SSG, which there is plenty of evidence against (and for). It seems to me that I'm forced to consider a retcon, which I absolutely hate to do. I think even in the case of a retcon, we can assume base Goku keeps at least enough power from inheriting the essence of his god form that he can match Vegeta post 6 months of training with Whis.

You could just interpret it as Goku (and also Vegeta, who's been kinda influenced by him) just suppresses his power. I mean, they obviously do since they don't use their Blue forms, so why can't they suppress themselves in Base to return to Buu arc levels? It also seems much more likely that Base Gohan (who was even with Goku's base) is actually only a fair amount stronger than Goku's Base in the Buu arc, rather than being much, much stronger than Super Vegetto.

There might or might not be a retcon, but I don't see much of a problem with it in-universe either.

[Bullza]

I thought of the small multiplier thing before. If Base Goku was supposed to be as strong as Super Saiyan God then it'd be ridiculous surely for him to still get 50-400 times as strong turning Super Saiyan and in the Battle of Gods movie there wasn't a massive difference when he turned Super Saiyan.

I don't think it works though. Zamasu said he got tens of times stronger and Cabba would have had the traditional 50 times boost turning Super Saiyan and Vegeta must have had a similar boost to be able to continue to match him.

Sometimes it does seem like there's two different base Goku's but the way they handle it is so weird. He used his ordinary power when he was a pretty intense fight with Bergamo that had high stakes but then he'd be in Saiyan Beyond God form when he was just caught by surprise when Frieza threw the Hakai at him?

[DBZ Macky]

I thought of the small multiplier thing before. If Base Goku was supposed to be as strong as Super Saiyan God then it'd be ridiculous surely for him to still get 50-400 times as strong turning Super Saiyan and in the Battle of Gods movie there wasn't a massive difference when he turned Super Saiyan.

I don't think it works though. Zamasu said he got tens of times stronger and Cabba would have had the traditional 50 times boost turning Super Saiyan and Vegeta must have had a similar boost to be able to continue to match him.

Sometimes it does seem like there's two different base Goku's but the way they handle it is so weird. He used his ordinary power when he was a pretty intense fight with Bergamo that had high stakes but then he'd be in Saiyan Beyond God form when he was just caught by surprise when Frieza threw the Hakai at him?

Bergamo was the best that Universe 9 had to offer, and was only as strong as the Base Saiyans (according to your power scaling, from what I can tell) until he slowly powered up. Freeza on the other hand would be about as strong as a SSG, since Goku was also supposed to be stronger than a SSG when he fought him. Makes sense that Goku wouldn't feel the need to hold back against him.

I think Goku and Vegeta were suppressed to Buu arc levels against Zamasu and Cabba (makes much more sense with how Vegeta tanked a punch to the face despite being equal to him in base) but were stronger than SSG against Freeza, Hit, "Monaka" and Copy-Vegeta.

You also have Base Goku being equal to Gohan, taking on Piccolo's attack (Who's on par with SS2 Gohan) and then proceeding to fight "Ultimate Gohan" in just his SS2 form. Something tells me that Goku isn't remotely serious in 90% of the fights in Super.

[Bullza]

Bergamo was the best that Universe 9 had to offer, and was only as strong as the Base Saiyans (according to your power scaling, from what I can tell) until he slowly powered up. Freeza on the other hand would be about as strong as a SSG, since Goku was also supposed to be stronger than a SSG when he fought him. Makes sense that Goku wouldn't feel the need to hold back against him.

I can understand why he'd use it there but even before that was he using Saiyan Beyond God the entire time he was at Baba's Palace?

Frieza punched him in the gut and he took it and this is a Frieza who in his first form punched SSJ Gohan and stopped his heart. A hugely suppressed Beerus who was below this Frieza gave SSJ3 Goku a little chop and knocked him out.

It's all very oddly written to me. SSJ3 Gotenks blasted away at Vegeta and couldn't so much as scratch him but Krillin blasts away at Goku and it pushes him back and he had to block that.

Gohan and Krillin couldn't see Goku fight Frieza but then they can keep up with him later on.

SSJB hasn't been explained too well and we could be getting that wrong. Why is it that that form has God Ki and yet a Saiyan Beyond Goku does not? Why was he not Blue when he fought Beerus?

If SSJB is really just Super Saiyan with God Ki then why wasn't he different when he turned God Ki on when he was a SSJ2 against Gohan?

If SSJB is just them turning into Super Saiyan after having absorbed the power of SSJG....then why does it seem like it's something they learned to use on Beerus' planet?

What it needs really is for Final Form Frieza to either fight Base Cabba evenly or fight Super Saiyan Cabba and completely stomped him. That would tell you everything.

[avasatu]

Suppression often doesn't make sense for a single base theory, since there would then be no reason for the Saiyans to use the golden haired forms. Why power down significantly only to transform into another state that's weaker than your maximum power in your base state?

I thought of the small multiplier thing before. If Base Goku was supposed to be as strong as Super Saiyan God then it'd be ridiculous surely for him to still get 50-400 times as strong turning Super Saiyan and in the Battle of Gods movie there wasn't a massive difference when he turned Super Saiyan.

I don't think it works though. Zamasu said he got tens of times stronger and Cabba would have had the traditional 50 times boost turning Super Saiyan and Vegeta must have had a similar boost to be able to continue to match him.

Sometimes it does seem like there's two different base Goku's but the way they handle it is so weird. He used his ordinary power when he was a pretty intense fight with Bergamo that had high stakes but then he'd be in Saiyan Beyond God form when he was just caught by surprise when Frieza threw the Hakai at him?

This. If episode 95 hadn't happened, I would chalk it all up to a post-BoG arc retcon and be done with it.

Bergamo was the best that Universe 9 had to offer, and was only as strong as the Base Saiyans (according to your power scaling, from what I can tell) until he slowly powered up. Freeza on the other hand would be about as strong as a SSG, since Goku was also supposed to be stronger than a SSG when he fought him. Makes sense that Goku wouldn't feel the need to hold back against him.

I can understand why he'd use it there but even before that was he using Saiyan Beyond God the entire time he was at Baba's Palace?

Frieza punched him in the gut and he took it and this is a Frieza who in his first form punched SSJ Gohan and stopped his heart. A hugely suppressed Beerus who was below this Frieza gave SSJ3 Goku a little chop and knocked him out.

It's all very oddly written to me. SSJ3 Gotenks blasted away at Vegeta and couldn't so much as scratch him but Krillin blasts away at Goku and it pushes him back and he had to block that.

Gohan and Krillin couldn't see Goku fight Frieza but then they can keep up with him later on.

SSJB hasn't been explained too well and we could be getting that wrong. Why is it that that form has God Ki and yet a Saiyan Beyond Goku does not? Why was he not Blue when he fought Beerus?

If SSJB is really just Super Saiyan with God Ki then why wasn't he different when he turned God Ki on when he was a SSJ2 against Gohan?

If SSJB is just them turning into Super Saiyan after having absorbed the power of SSJG....then why does it seem like it's something they learned to use on Beerus' planet?

What it needs really is for Final Form Frieza to either fight Base Cabba evenly or fight Super Saiyan Cabba and completely stomped him. That would tell you everything.

Under the two base theory, you answer yes to SBG the entire time at Baba's palace. We also don't know too much about Gohan's power level when Frieza supposedly stopped his heart, nor do we know the comparative strength between the two punches thrown. However, Goku trained substantially under a harsher master using a vastly different training technique prior to his fight with Frieza, so we can't exactly reference Beerus' chop with any real meaning in this context.

Your point about Krillin blasting away at Goku really makes two base theory strong. Why does Goku go SS1 if he has a stronger base? Either Krillin got immensely more powerful, Goku was using SS1 to show Krillin that he took him seriously, or it requires some effort, mentally or physically, to go from base to SBG that Goku just wasn't willing to go through for that particular fight. Maybe it's tougher to turn into SBG than SS1, for example. I suspect it may be an issue of using concentration to grab a hold of the god essence.

The only explanations for Krillin suddenly being able to see Goku later on: 1) he was moving slower 2) Krillin had gotten used to his speed (whatever that means) 3) Hax- Bulma can see Vegeta vs Cabba, for example 4) Krillin got substantially, and I mean substantially more powerful. I lean toward 2 or 3.

I take SBG to be Goku in his base form tapping into what I call the god essence: a huge latent bulk of power that is equivalent or even somewhat larger than the initial power of the SSG, but transformed into mortal ki. However, I believe that in order to access this form, Goku has to be more mentally focused than he is while in his regular base form. This is why he may prefer to not only not use it on occasion, but to instead use things like SS1, which require emotion rather than concentration. This also explains why no god ki is felt from others when Goku is in this form. By the way, under this setup, I also believe Goku's regular base hasn't improved leaps and bounds since Buu arc, but I think his god essence base has, as I believe this is the base form Whis forces Goku to use while training, and increases in this base's power don't necessarily correlate to large increases in regular base power. In addition, if you go SS while you are in regular base, you get the series of golden haired transformations. If you do it while SBG, you get SSB. At the same time, you can also grab the god essence while SS1, and it somehow converts into god ki and makes you SSB, it seems. That actually falls nicely within the realm of this theory.

Under this theory, what the Saiyans learned on Beerus' planet is how to actually access real god ki rather than its mere essence. However, it requires that they be in their god essence base forms, and further, it requires them to be SS, which is a huge downfall. I strongly believe that Goku's upcoming form is going to be KK catalyzing Goku being able to master god ki in his base, even to the extent that the blue in his hair becomes pent up inside of him.

Things I still haven't decided on: provided 2 base theory is correct, is SSB a 50x multiplier on top of SBG? It seems like 10x at most. Also, what is the freakin' power gap between SS3 and SSB? PerhapstheOne is a user on here who has done some good thinking on this. He uses Ultimate Gohan to gauge it pretty nicely. I'm inspired to develop my own line of thinking along those lines. I just need the time!

[dragon boss z]

Suppression often doesn't make sense for a single base theory, since there would then be no reason for the Saiyans to use the golden haired forms. Why power down significantly only to transform into another state that's weaker than your maximum power in your base state?

This is why I think that it goes something like this

base<<<base(full ki control)<ssj(50x regular base<<<<<SSB(50x base with full ki control)

this makes it so ssj is still stronger than any version of their base, but they can power up their base almost to ssj level by holding in all of their ki as Whis taught them to do, and going ssj with full ki control leads to SSB.

[DBZ Macky]

Suppression often doesn't make sense for a single base theory, since there would then be no reason for the Saiyans to use the golden haired forms. Why power down significantly only to transform into another state that's weaker than your maximum power in your base state?

Since all of us are dealing in head-canon right now, here's mine:

1. They're more accustomed to using their Buu Saga tier levels. As you theorized, using God's power might put more strain on them and/or require greater concentration. They've worked for that strength and used it for decades, in contrast to getting God power through a ritual or short-cutting to reach that realm in a measly half-year or so.

2. Goku might not want to use his full power which was the result of him becoming a SSG, which wasn't his own power. Even Vegeta had to sell his pride and train under a master to attain God-tier power. So while he can boast that he achieved such power with his own strength, he might prefer to show off the power he attained literally on his own instead (Super Saiyan ,Super Sayan 2, etc). especially when the result's the same anyways.

3. Rather than powering up all the way from Base levels to God levels, a whopping 50/100/400x increase would be much more quicker to power-up into and preferable to fight small fries like Krillin, Base Gohan and Cabba.

What I'm proposing is essentially the same as the "two-base theory", but it's much more flexible than just one base at Buu Saga levels and the other at God levels; it's a general range that allows Goku to be as strong as the plot requires (which is a necessity when it comes to Super and Anime-only stuff in general).

EDIT: Goku can also use this God-tier power in his golden forms (though he doesn't, most of the times). this doesn't give him a significant boost in power, but just enough so that he can use just a little bit more of his god power. After training with Whis, he's able to tap into a reserve of Ki even superior to SSG by using his Mastered Super Saiyan form as a conduit to transform into a form surpassing even SSG. And this is what we call Super Saiyan Blue.

[Marlowe89]

Since all of us are dealing in head-canon right now

Is it headcanon? I'd say there's definitely an official precedent for the idea of the yellow Super Saiyan forms being derived from a weaker/suppressed base while Super Saiyan Blue is derived from a Godly base.

The RoF pamphlet and a specific sequence in Dokkan Battle make it pretty clear that SSGSS is simply the result of a Saiyan with SSG's power changing into Super Saiyan, and it's not like we had to look outside the movie for that information since Goku himself called it the Super Saiyan form of a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God in the film (according to Herms, that's the best translation of the line). It's also difficult to divorce this from the Super anime since Goku has the same line in Episode 25.

There are some weird details thrown in the mix, like Goku being a yellow Super Saiyan against Beerus and whatever was going on during Whis' training, but these don't necessarily contradict what we were told about the nature of Blue and can certainly be explained away with a little context-searcing. We know that Goku having the power of a Super Saiyan God must have been transferred from his Super Saiyan form in BoG to his base, and Whis' training may have been the means for that since we did see Goku and Vegeta using powers normally associated with Blue in their base forms; Whis also told them that they had to learn to become stronger without transforming. Even the manga noted Super Saiyan's hair to change color after surpassing Super Saiyan God. The rest is either just basic suppression or them toggling that power on and off.

Anyone who assumes this was changed would have to assume there was a retcon somewhere. It's rather unfortunate that Toei didn't do a terribly good job of conveying this to the viewer, but I do believe this was their intention.

[Bullza]

It's hard to say if it's all as complicated as it seems or we're just overcomplicating it.

Are we to believe that if Goku had turned Super Saiyan on Earth sometime after Beerus went back to his planet then he'd have been capable of Blue form right then and there?

Was it just something they automatically achieved upon absorbing the power of God or is it something they learned by training? Because they made a whole point during that training about not letting their Ki leak out and it was only after Whis told them that did we get the Blue tease.

And like I said they could sense "Saiyan Beyond God Goku" even though he's apparently supposed to have God Ki but they couldn't sense Super Saiyan Blue Goku.

You'd think that Ki leaking thing would have something to do with it. If it wasn't supposed to a part of what Blue was then what other purpose did it serve?

[DBZ Macky]

Are we to believe that if Goku had turned Super Saiyan on Earth sometime after Beerus went back to his planet then he'd have been capable of Blue form right then and there?

Ooh, I can answer that one!

Doesn't seem to be the case, as we see in one of the episodes after Goku's battle with Beerus.

[Marlowe89]

You'd think that Ki leaking thing would have something to do with it. If it wasn't supposed to a part of what Blue was then what other purpose did it serve?

For Goku, I'd wager the purpose was probably fully merging the power of Super Saiyan God into his base form; prior to that, we only saw him using that power in Super Saiyan. They were in base when we saw that blue ki after all, and Whis did say that they needed to maximize their power without relying on transformations. Alternatively, we might have to discount that part altogether since it's highly unlikely that Toriyama had any involvement in the anime's adaptation of RoF.

And like I said, even in addition to the RoF movie, the art pamphlet, and Goku's line in Episode 25, you also have Zamasu's line in the manga where it was specifically clarified that Super Saiyan's hair changes color upon surpassing Super Saiyan God. I realize that the manga is a different medium from the anime but this all seems to line up a little too neatly for me to dismiss it as mere coincidence.

[avasatu]

Suppression often doesn't make sense for a single base theory, since there would then be no reason for the Saiyans to use the golden haired forms. Why power down significantly only to transform into another state that's weaker than your maximum power in your base state?

Since all of us are dealing in head-canon right now, here's mine:

1. They're more accustomed to using their Buu Saga tier levels. As you theorized, using God's power might put more strain on them and/or require greater concentration. They've worked for that strength and used it for decades, in contrast to getting God power through a ritual or short-cutting to reach that realm in a measly half-year or so.



2. Goku might not want to use his full power which was the result of him becoming a SSG, which wasn't his own power. Even Vegeta had to sell his pride and train under a master to attain God-tier power. So while he can boast that he achieved such power with his own strength, he might prefer to show off the power he attained literally on his own instead (Super Saiyan ,Super Sayan 2, etc). especially when the result's the same anyways.

3. Rather than powering up all the way from Base levels to God levels, a whopping 50/100/400x increase would be much more quicker to power-up into and preferable to fight small fries like Krillin, Base Gohan and Cabba.

What I'm proposing is essentially the same as the "two-base theory", but it's much more flexible than just one base at Buu Saga levels and the other at God levels; it's a general range that allows Goku to be as strong as the plot requires (which is a necessity when it comes to Super and Anime-only stuff in general).

EDIT: Goku can also use this God-tier power in his golden forms (though he doesn't, most of the times). this doesn't give him a significant boost in power, but just enough so that he can use just a little bit more of his god power. After training with Whis, he's able to tap into a reserve of Ki even superior to SSG by using his Mastered Super Saiyan form as a conduit to transform into a form surpassing even SSG. And this is what we call Super Saiyan Blue.

Yes, this is more or less my theory. I don't believe Goku can use god essence in SSJ2 or 3 though, at least not yet. In my estimation that would have to produce SSB2/3 or something similar, and I think the amount of control that SSB requires vs the sheer emotion and ki leakage from SS2-3 don't combine to allow for such a thing to occur. That's why Goku's next transformation won't be taking him down that well-travelled but limited path.

[avasatu]

It's hard to say if it's all as complicated as it seems or we're just overcomplicating it.

Are we to believe that if Goku had turned Super Saiyan on Earth sometime after Beerus went back to his planet then he'd have been capable of Blue form right then and there?

Was it just something they automatically achieved upon absorbing the power of God or is it something they learned by training? Because they made a whole point during that training about not letting their Ki leak out and it was only after Whis told them that did we get the Blue tease.

And like I said they could sense "Saiyan Beyond God Goku" even though he's apparently supposed to have God Ki but they couldn't sense Super Saiyan Blue Goku.

You'd think that Ki leaking thing would have something to do with it. If it wasn't supposed to a part of what Blue was then what other purpose did it serve?

The theory we posited perfectly explains this. In short, yes, it still required more training. Goku needed a way to turn his god essence back into god ki, and that was accomplished by beginning to master ki leakage under Whis. The current drawbacks: this requires increased mental concentration, even in SBG form, and then it requires a Super Saiyan transformation on top of that amalgamated with an intense focus on ki containment.

[Bullza]

Doesn't seem to be the case, as we see in one of the episodes after Goku's battle with Beerus.

That's very interesting and I'd completely forgot about that entirely.

I don't know how that all works then. Should he have not been a Saiyan Beyond God during that scene? So why didn't he turn Blue?

This two bases theory was supposed to be that he learned how to control and turn on and off his God Ki by training with Whis. This scene was before all that though.

This makes it look like Goku could still use the regular Super Saiyan forms even after absorbing the power of God. Which actually does fit with the Battle of Gods movie where he turned Blonde and not Blue after he transformed.

And like I said, even in addition to the RoF movie, the art pamphlet, and Goku's line in Episode 25, you also have Zamasu's line in the manga where it was specifically clarified that Super Saiyan's hair changes color upon surpassing Super Saiyan God.

That's right, his Super Saiyan was only as strong as Super Saiyan God because they said that power was still burning inside him, it didn't surpass it so maybe that's why he stayed Blonde.

That wouldn't seem to be the case in later fights though so you'd have to say that Super Saiyan God's power wasn't amplifying his power there.

In the manga Black just powered up and it was enough for him to push him over to the next level but in the anime there looks to be more to it.

Goku needed a way to turn his god essence back into god ki, and that was accomplished by beginning to master ki leakage under Whis.

I see that said a lot, what is this God essence? I've never even heard that said in the show.

[avasatu]

God essence is a fan made term for the bulk of power absorbed by Goku post his fight with Beerus. Beerus notes that Goku absorbed the power of SSG, but that he was not a god anymore. It was not divine ki, but Goku made the power his own in his unique way. This is the god essence.

[Marlowe89]

That wouldn't seem to be the case in later fights though so you'd have to say that Super Saiyan God's power wasn't amplifying his power there.

That's more or less the idea. In the BoG arc, it was Goku's Super Saiyan form that used SSG's power. After Whis' training, that would later become Goku's base, and the Super Saiyan form of that state was supposed to be SSGSS.

What caused all the confusion was the yellow Super Saiyan forms getting re-introduced into the plot, but really if we think back to the official explanation for Blue and its own implications, it would seem that they're currently extensions of Goku's non-Godly base just as they were supposed to be prior to Goku absorbing SSG.

[ZombieVito]

I don't know how that all works then. Should he have not been a Saiyan Beyond God during that scene? So why didn't he turn Blue?

He is a Saiyan beyond God there. The reason he didn't turn Blue is because he hasn't learned how to control/obtain god ki.

Black is the same way in the manga. After being healed by Zamasu, his Super Saiyan form is stronger than Blue Vegeta and after being healed again he turns Rose.

[Helios518]

I don't know how that all works then. Should he have not been a Saiyan Beyond God during that scene? So why didn't he turn Blue?

He is a Saiyan beyond God there. The reason he didn't turn Blue is because he hasn't learned how to control/obtain god ki.

Black is the same way in the manga. After being healed by Zamasu, his Super Saiyan form is stronger than Blue Vegeta and after being healed again he turns Rose.

IIRC Goku Black has only been healed once.