"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[HeroR]

Once again, you're the one saying Faster than time, which is your hang-up, not mines.

And it was never said in the anime that Goku out powered the Time-Leap. Both Goku and Hit said that they were ahead of each other, which implied that Goku moved so fast that Hit's Time-Leaping couldn't keep up with him. When Hit improved his Time-Skip he could freeze Goku longer, just as Hit's Time-Leaping went from .01 to .05. It didn't become more stronger as being able overpower Goku, especially since it's noted by everyone that Hit's physical power doesn't increase.

Also, out-speeding someone who can freeze time isn't even unheard of in fiction. The Flash did it along with other speedsters.

There is no such thing as Faster than Time, which is why i said it's BS. The time was already stopped when Goku literally moved. After Hit improved his Time-Skip, he can incap Goku. Goku can't move in a stopped time without time-skip resistance, he's not a high reality warping being or something like that. The manga actually explains us how Goku defeated the time-skip, and it works well with that specific scene in the anime.

The anime doesn't follow the manga since Hit didn't improve his Time-Skip in the manga, and Vegeta didn't lose 90% of his power before fighting Hit. The Time-Skip improving also wasn't a power boast, it just the time freeze longer, so it had nothing to do with how powerful Goku was.

And you're still going on about faster than time, which I haven't stated not once and speedsters outrunning someone who can stop or freeze time isn't new, especially in comics. The Flash does it. It isn't 'faster than time', it's a mixture of Goku predicting Hit's movements and being is fast that he moved ahead of Hit even with the .05 second pause.

[HeroR]

Did anyone mention the different from Manga to Movie that Goku used SSjG while fighting Hit?

For me, i used to think SSjG (red hair) way stronger than SSjB (blue hair). But from what i saw in manga was making me thinking that now SSjB is stronger

It's stated in both the anime and manga that Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is stronger than Super Saiyan God.

[Khin]

The anime doesn't follow the manga since Hit didn't improve his Time-Skip in the manga, and Vegeta didn't lose 90% of his power before fighting Hit. The Time-Skip improving also wasn't a power boast, it just the time freeze longer, so it had nothing to do with how powerful Goku was.

When did i say that the anime follows the manga ? They have differences, but there are also many similarities. I didn't say anything about Time-Skip being power boast either. Hit's final improvement is that he can incap Goku that Goku can't escape from it anymore.

And you're still going on about faster than time, which I haven't stated not once and speedsters outrunning someone who can stop or freeze time isn't new, especially in comics. The Flash does it. It isn't 'faster than time', it's a mixture of Goku predicting Hit's movements and being is fast that he moved ahead of Hit even with the .05 second pause.

Are you really comparing Flash and Goku ? It's like comparing a Turtle to Usain Bolt. You're ignoring the crux of the argument which where Goku moved in a stopped time. Goku didn't move in a stopped time while predicting Hit's move scenes before, and he can't move in a stopped time by speed alone.

[HeroR]

The anime doesn't follow the manga since Hit didn't improve his Time-Skip in the manga, and Vegeta didn't lose 90% of his power before fighting Hit. The Time-Skip improving also wasn't a power boast, it just the time freeze longer, so it had nothing to do with how powerful Goku was.

When did i say that the anime follows the manga ? They have differences, but there are also many similarities. I didn't say anything about Time-Skip being power boast either. Hit's final improvement is that he can incap Goku that Goku can't escape from it anymore.

And you're still going on about faster than time, which I haven't stated not once and speedsters outrunning someone who can stop or freeze time isn't new, especially in comics. The Flash does it. It isn't 'faster than time', it's a mixture of Goku predicting Hit's movements and being is fast that he moved ahead of Hit even with the .05 second pause.

Are you really comparing Flash and Goku ? It's like comparing a Turtle to Usain Bolt. You're ignoring the crux of the argument which where Goku moved in a stopped time. Goku didn't move in a stopped time while predicting Hit's move scenes before, and he can't move in a stopped time by speed alone.

No, my argument is that Goku moved so fast and predicted Hit's movements that it looked like he moved when frozen when in reality he was just too quick for Hit to freeze and attack. And the comparison to the Flash was to only show that some out-speeding a time manipulator isn't new in fiction.

[Chiki]

There's no debate to be had here; it's clearly because of power level.



The word power is used over and over again, not speed.

[Khin]

my argument is that Goku moved so fast and predicted Hit's movements that it looked like he moved when frozen when in reality he was just too quick for Hit to freeze and attack.

You're contradicting yourself here, if Goku was so fast for Hit to freeze-and-attack then Goku wouldn't need to predict Hit's movements, because Hit can't freeze the time. Goku's prediction movement will only apply once the Time-Skip is over. You can literally see the Stopped-Time backround, indicating that the time was stopped in the scene.

Yes, Goku was way faster than Hit (He even blitzed him in his first attack). But Hit was able to successfully use the Time-Skip after that. Which is why how the manga handled it by having Hit's Time-Skip being beatable by having his enemy way superior than him works completely well with the scene in the anime, because Goku is over 10x stronger than Hit.

[HeroR]

my argument is that Goku moved so fast and predicted Hit's movements that it looked like he moved when frozen when in reality he was just too quick for Hit to freeze and attack.

You're contradicting yourself here, if Goku was so fast for Hit to freeze-and-attack then Goku wouldn't need to predict Hit's movements, because Hit can't freeze the time. Goku's prediction movement will only apply once the Time-Skip is over. You can literally see the Stopped-Time backround, indicating that the time was stopped in the scene.

Yes, Goku was way faster than Hit (He even blitzed him in his first attack). But Hit was able to successfully use the Time-Skip after that. Which is why how the manga handled it by having Hit's Time-Skip being beatable by having his enemy way superior than him works completely well with the scene in the anime, because Goku is over 10x stronger than Hit.

How I contradict myself? Goku was able to predict Hit's movements, which is how he first beat the time skip. Hit then increased the time skip, making the pause so long that Goku couldn't react in time despite knowing how Hit will attack. The Kaio-Ken gave him the speed boast needed to move faster than Hit can freeze him and he can predict Hit's attacks.

Him moving when time is frozen is just a visible effect akin to characters seemingly disappearing when they move fast enough. And again, the anime never implied that Hit's time skip can be beaten by pure power like the manga, especially since Goku and Hit claimed to ahead of each other.

You can prefer how the manga handled it, but it was never say to work that way in the anime and implied it was a speed feat.

[Khin]

How I contradict myself? Goku was able to predict Hit's movements, which is how he first beat the time skip. Hit then increased the time skip, making the pause so long that Goku couldn't react in time despite knowing how Hit will attack. The Kaio-Ken gave him the speed boast needed to move faster than Hit can freeze him and he can predict Hit's attacks.

There you go. If Goku is way too fast for Hit's to use the Time-Skip (Meaning he would get his ass kicked before he can use the Time-Skip), then there's no need for Goku to predict Hit's movements.

Him moving when time is frozen is just a visible effect akin to characters seemingly disappearing when they move fast enough. And again, the anime never implied that Hit's time skip can be beaten by pure power like the manga, especially since Goku and Hit claimed to ahead of each other.

As you can see in the pic above you. Due to gap between Hit and Goku, the amount of Time being stopped became very small. Which actually looks the same case in the anime where Kaiou-ken x10 Goku was frozen for a very short amount of time when Hit used Time-Skip against him. And Hit's Time-Skip only works on Goku again later because he was able to improve it to the point where it can icap Goku.

You can prefer how the manga handled it, but it was never say to work that way in the anime and implied it was a speed feat.

Just because it was never directly stated, that doesn't mean it's not the case, especially since both manga and anime had multiple similarities. You can blame TOEI for not bothering to explain anything (As per usual) unlike in the manga.

[Chiki]

I don't know why some like to make up their own canon to suit the facts they like. Whis in the manga literally says SSG is too powerful for Tokitobashi. He just says it. What are you debating about?

Speed was not implied even in the anime. Goku simply says, at his level, Tokitobashi won't work anymore.

[Alruneia]

So from what I can tell, Hit's Tokitobashi is comparable to The World ZA WARUDO. Much like how Jotaro managed to move while Dio froze time because of his power (I'm not counting the end of the fight where he learned to freeze time himself here), Goku's strength level allows him to move even though Hit is skipping time. So he's at a strength level where the Tokitobashi technique is ineffective on him. Am I completely off the mark with that?

[macho_man]

I tought it in the exact same way, looks like Toriyama is a fan of Jojo... or rather this is just an affectionate quote.

[dbzfan7]

So from what I can tell, Hit's Tokitobashi is comparable to The World ZA WARUDO. Much like how Jotaro managed to move while Dio froze time because of his power (I'm not counting the end of the fight where he learned to freeze time himself here), Goku's strength level allows him to move even though Hit is skipping time. So he's at a strength level where the Tokitobashi technique is ineffective on him. Am I completely off the mark with that?

It's not really the same. It has nothing to do with Star Platinum being powerful. It's that The World and Star Platinum are identical stands. Hence what one is capable of, the other is. So Star Platinum had it's own time capabilities. Untapped, but still potential to control time, which it can later. Hit's Time Skip just has a similar psychic weakness as the other abilities in the series have shown.

[Sandubadear]

So from what I can tell, Hit's Tokitobashi is comparable to The World ZA WARUDO. Much like how Jotaro managed to move while Dio froze time because of his power (I'm not counting the end of the fight where he learned to freeze time himself here), Goku's strength level allows him to move even though Hit is skipping time. So he's at a strength level where the Tokitobashi technique is ineffective on him. Am I completely off the mark with that?

It's like King Crimson, where time still flows, but is skipped by Hit. Like someone said above, Jotaro moved during Dio's time freeze because both Star Platinum and The World have the same powers. Goku doesn't have time-skip. It just doesn't work on people stronger than him.

[Alruneia]

Alright, I think I get it. Thanks for the replies, Sandubadear and dbzfan7.

[HeroR]

How I contradict myself? Goku was able to predict Hit's movements, which is how he first beat the time skip. Hit then increased the time skip, making the pause so long that Goku couldn't react in time despite knowing how Hit will attack. The Kaio-Ken gave him the speed boast needed to move faster than Hit can freeze him and he can predict Hit's attacks.

There you go. If Goku is way too fast for Hit's to use the Time-Skip (Meaning he would get his ass kicked before he can use the Time-Skip), then there's no need for Goku to predict Hit's movements.

Him moving when time is frozen is just a visible effect akin to characters seemingly disappearing when they move fast enough. And again, the anime never implied that Hit's time skip can be beaten by pure power like the manga, especially since Goku and Hit claimed to ahead of each other.

As you can see in the pic above you. Due to gap between Hit and Goku, the amount of Time being stopped became very small. Which actually looks the same case in the anime where Kaiou-ken x10 Goku was frozen for a very short amount of time when Hit used Time-Skip against him. And Hit's Time-Skip only works on Goku again later because he was able to improve it to the point where it can icap Goku.

You can prefer how the manga handled it, but it was never say to work that way in the anime and implied it was a speed feat.

Just because it was never directly stated, that doesn't mean it's not the case, especially since both manga and anime had multiple similarities. You can blame TOEI for not bothering to explain anything (As per usual) unlike in the manga.

When in doubt, blame Toei, huh.

Sorry, in the Hit vs. Goku fight there are too many differences to mix and match information. Goku never fought Hit as a Super Saiyan or a Super Saiyan God, it was never said Super Saiyan Goku beat Hit power wise, and it was never said time skip became less effective the stronger the person is. The manga did its own thing for this fight when the anime went in a different direction. The only similarities between the two is Goku fighting in base, figuring out the time skip, and Goku ringing himself out.

I will explain one last time, Goku used a mixed of speed and knowing Hit's movements to move so fast that it appears he moved while time was frozen, when in reality Goku was so fast that by the time Hit froze him and he moved to attack, Goku was already way ahead of him. It's a visual effect, just like fighters don't actually disappear when moving at super speed.

Hit can activate the time skip fairly quickly, but he still got slammed by Goku. And Hit could stop Goku because the time skip time increased, not that it became so powerful that it held Goku by force.

I don't know why some like to make up their own canon to suit the facts they like. Whis in the manga literally says SSG is too powerful for Tokitobashi. He just says it. What are you debating about?

Speed was not implied even in the anime. Goku simply says, at his level, Tokitobashi won't work anymore.

Manga is not the anime. The fight plays out differently since Goku never used Super Saiyan God in the anime and Whis never utter that sentence in the anime. Hit also doesn't improve in the manga, he's just holds back and couldn't maintain his full power because he's out of practice.

You can prefer one version, but don't pretend the manga gives stuff that the anime didn't say.

[Chiki]

Manga is not the anime. The fight plays out differently since Goku never used Super Saiyan God in the anime and Whis never utter that sentence in the anime. Hit also doesn't improve in the manga, he's just holds back and couldn't maintain his full power because he's out of practice.

You can prefer one version, but don't pretend the manga gives stuff that the anime didn't say.

But there's no reason to think that the anime implied it was because of Goku's speed. Why should I think it was because of his speed in the anime when the manga says it was because of power? It's just not a good hypothesis. Why would it differ in the manga and the anime?

[alakazam^]

While Vegeta using the same attack against Cabba, as the one used to kill Nappa is a nice way to showcase the character development, with perfect timing.

Toei generally is something like, "remember when Piccolo sacrificed himself for Gohan, let's do it again"; "remember how cool Vegeta was using the Galick Gun and the Final Flash, again!". To the point one starts to wonder if they don't have imagination, or they think we're just jacking off to the nostalgia.
I'm being kinda harsh but they really abuse it.

That sounds really biased against Toei. What character development does that attack showcase that the Final Flash or the Galick Gun don't? Actually, they should use their signature attacks more, not less.

But there's no reason to think that the anime implied it was because of Goku's speed. Why should I think it was because of his speed in the anime when the manga says it was because of power? It's just not a good hypothesis. Why would it differ in the manga and the anime?

Both his strength and speed increased so it could have been because of either one.

[LightBing]

That sounds really biased against Toei. What character development does that attack showcase that the Final Flash or the Galick Gun don't? Actually, they should use their signature attacks more, not less.

Damn, that's an old post to quote.
That particular scene has meaning because Vegeta's using the attack to help a Saiyan, one he barely knew, while in the past he used it to kill a Saiyan who he knew for decades. The nostalgia is given utility.
Final Flash or Galick Gun, the way it used in the episode is just yanking for nostalgia. Particularly the Final Flash scene, it's almost copy-pasted from the Cell Arc.

I'm not saying Toei does everything wrong or that Toyotarõ does everything right. Going from what I've seen, Toyotarõ does it better and has fewer gratuitous nostalgia moments. While Toei suffers from copying old scenes without any spin to it, much more.

[Chiki]

While Vegeta using the same attack against Cabba, as the one used to kill Nappa is a nice way to showcase the character development, with perfect timing.

Toei generally is something like, "remember when Piccolo sacrificed himself for Gohan, let's do it again"; "remember how cool Vegeta was using the Galick Gun and the Final Flash, again!". To the point one starts to wonder if they don't have imagination, or they think we're just jacking off to the nostalgia.
I'm being kinda harsh but they really abuse it.

That sounds really biased against Toei. What character development does that attack showcase that the Final Flash or the Galick Gun don't? Actually, they should use their signature attacks more, not less.

But there's no reason to think that the anime implied it was because of Goku's speed. Why should I think it was because of his speed in the anime when the manga says it was because of power? It's just not a good hypothesis. Why would it differ in the manga and the anime?

Both his strength and speed increased so it could have been because of either one.

You didn't answer why it would be different in the anime compared to the manga.

[alakazam^]

That particular scene has meaning because Vegeta's using the attack to help a Saiyan, one he barely knew, while in the past he used it to kill a Saiyan who he knew for decades. The nostalgia is given utility.
Final Flash or Galick Gun, the way it used in the episode is just yanking for nostalgia. Particularly the Final Flash scene, it's almost copy-pasted from the Cell Arc.

I don't see any difference in them, no one in-universe noted that throwback so it was probably for nostalgia sake as well. I don't mind them trying to push those buttons.

You didn't answer why it would be different in the anime compared to the manga.

That's not my point to make, though. I just added to your conversation.