"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Gog]

Trunks certainly wasn't just standing there. I think my interpretation is reasonable.

You're right he wasn't just standing there. After re-reading the fight he destroyed the Z Sword, deliberately after it was already destroyed and then Trunks was pushed down to the ground. Honesty, I would say that it would have made so much more sense if Toyo added one panel were Dabura was annoyed that he missed Kibito.

[Noah]

There are people actually defending this? How is that possible for Goku to achieve a level that Vegeta knew about it but wasn't capable to do the same?

[Gog]

There are people actually defending this? How is that possible for Goku to achieve a level that Vegeta knew about it but wasn't capable to do the same?

Well, Goku did ascend to Super Saiyan 3... Honestly I have no problem with Goku ascending to another level of power, I just dislike the fact that it essentially contradicts everything shown, stated and implied in the entire Future Trunks Arc.

[TheSaiyanGod]

There are people actually defending this? How is that possible for Goku to achieve a level that Vegeta knew about it but wasn't capable to do the same?

Vegeta did not know. He only knew after merging with Goku.

It would be crazy to try to do this without any kind of preparation. Goku had previous knowledge and may even have tried to do this, but Vegeta did not.

He could not at that moment, but he could dominate the SSB afterwards too.

[TKA]

There are people actually defending this? How is that possible for Goku to achieve a level that Vegeta knew about it but wasn't capable to do the same?

Did you even read the chapter? Vegeta learned about this after their fusion.

Also, Vegeta had his own method of getting around Super Saiyan Blue's energy drain that was way more sustainable than Goku's method.

The majority of complaints in this thread are from people not reading the chapter, and misremembering things from previous chapters.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

There are people actually defending this? How is that possible for Goku to achieve a level that Vegeta knew about it but wasn't capable to do the same?

If you bother to read through the thread (and the manga, for that matter) rather than dismiss it outright, you'd realize that a couple of people have already thoroughly analyzed the arc to make sure that it holds up. Vegeta didn't know about it until post-fusion and Goku hadn't encountered a proper opportunity to use it until now.

[Noah]

If you bother to read through the thread (and the manga, for that matter) rather than dismiss it outright, you'd realize that a couple of people have already thoroughly analyzed the arc to make sure that it holds up. Vegeta didn't know about it until post-fusion and Goku hadn't encountered a proper opportunity to use it until now.

Yeah, right a proper opportunity that came after the fusion wore off. Why he didn't used that before? Call an asspull, but the anime is no better in this area either. I don't know what to choose between Rage Trunks keeping up with Merged Zamasu that resisted Vegetto or Goku realizing he had card up his sleeve all along but didn't used before due unknown causes.

[Tectorman]

Has anyone considered another drawback of the 100% SSB, that the requirement of holding all the energy inside acts as a double-edged sword? Goku has to keep all the energy in and under control. Not only is this difficult and self-destructive to do, but doesn't this limit his repertoire? By which I mean, if energy blasts are, by definition, your energy going outside your body and that's the one thing Goku can't do, then he's just lost a large part of his offensive roster. No blasts, no Kamehameha, all he has is what he can physically do.

And yes, post-100%, he hasn't fired a single blast yet. With all that energy inside, he's now stronger, faster, and, most important of all right now, more durable than ever, hopefully enough to turtle Merged Zamasu until the hour's finally up. So 100% SSB is the correct choice now. But prior to this point, if he needed the offensive options of his energy blasts, then this 100% SSB would have been counter-productive, if it indeed follows that 100% SSB disallows any form of energy projection.

[HeroR]

Also, since Super Saiyan Rose is basically Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, why didn't Black have half of these problems? He never complained about his form being so flawed that he can't maintain full power.

SSR is the version of SSB in a god, it was stated in the manga. But things work differently, starting from the colour of the hair, to other things like the more effective Zenkai boosts that leaded him to have a more powerful Base than SS2 Trunks or a more powerful SS than SSB Vegeta.

He may not have the same flaws, but it's possible that he has them too, we just haven't seen enough. I think we have seen him transformation one or two times and he had Zamasu to cure him before he could realize about any flaw to complain.

Is there actually any proof of this? I don't believe there is.

It's speculation. Nothing in the manga says that, it's honestly contradictorish to what happened in the arc. But I won't elaborate on it here. A guide might have said something about it, I don't know.

I think a guide gave some very specific numbers for the multipliers of the SS transformations as static values and same for everyone, implying the only thing that varies is the base level. It was never stated in universe or by Toriyama, so I don't consider those ideas canon neither to the manga nor the anime, they make the SS power scaling very tight.

No offense, but the manga never said any of this. Black gets boosts because his a new soul in a Saiyan's body, nothing about him being a god. The rest is your headcanon since the manga only said that having god in the body gave it a different hair color, not change the form where it isn't a energy drain.

[batistabus]

Has anyone considered another drawback of the 100% SSB, that the requirement of holding all the energy inside acts as a double-edged sword? Goku has to keep all the energy in and under control. Not only is this difficult and self-destructive to do, but doesn't this limit his repertoire? By which I mean, if energy blasts are, by definition, your energy going outside your body and that's the one thing Goku can't do, then he's just lost a large part of his offensive roster. No blasts, no Kamehameha, all he has is what he can physically do.

And yes, post-100%, he hasn't fired a single blast yet. With all that energy inside, he's now stronger, faster, and, most important of all right now, more durable than ever, hopefully enough to turtle Merged Zamasu until the hour's finally up. So 100% SSB is the correct choice now. But prior to this point, if he needed the offensive options of his energy blasts, then this 100% SSB would have been counter-productive, if it indeed follows that 100% SSB disallows any form of energy projection.

That's actually a really good observation. We'll see if Toyotaro plays with this concept, but as of right now, that gives it a pretty interesting trade-off! It's like going back to basics, in a way.

[TKA]

Yeah, right a proper opportunity that came after the fusion wore off. Why he didn't used that before? Call an asspull, but the anime is no better in this area either. I don't know what to choose between Rage Trunks keeping up with Merged Zamasu that resisted Vegetto or Goku realizing he had card up his sleeve all along but didn't used before due unknown causes.

My God. Just read the darn manga before you critique it.

1. Goku didn't have much energy left by the time he and Vegeta fused.

2. This technique is dangerous and unmastered. It's literally only being used because he has exhausted all other options.

3. It's NOT an asspull. An asspull, by definition, has no basis in anything, no foreshadowing, no context and makes no sense. That is not this. It was established a long ass time ago that SSB burns up a lot of energy. It was established that both Goku and Vegeta knew its weakness. It was established that Vegeta found an answer to fix its weakness; obviously that meant Goku had his own answer, or the same answer because both of them have always been able to figure out how techniques work.

Come on, dude.

[Cipher]

Vegeta's "solution" to the extreme exertion required by Super Saiyan Blue favors sustainability. Goku's previously untested solution, which Vegeta learned about only through their fusion, favors raw power at the cost of wearing the user down. They need to be able to put up a fight against Zamasu until the fusion wears off, so between healing one or the other, Vegeta favored Goku.

Tectorman also makes the observation above that Goku may not be able to fire ki blasts while holding all the energy in (we'll see if that remains true).

All of this is fine. Maybe it's not the most satisfying climax yet, but the story isn't over and it's certainly nothing worth getting upset about.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

Tectorman also makes the observation above that Goku may not be able to fire ki blasts while holding all the energy in (we'll see if that remains true).

I doubt it, he's likely still directing ki to amplify his blows, so he could probably direct it into a blast as well. After all, leakage isn't the same as intentionally directing ki outside of the body.

Actually, what I really like about this is that it seems to validate the idea that holding in and controlling ki is a key element in achieving godly power, which had previously only been implied in the anime's RoF Arc. I won't go so far as to say it's necessarily a Toriyama idea, but I think it's a good deal more likely.

[Cipher]

I doubt it, he's likely still directing ki to amplify his blows, so he could probably direct it into a blast as well. After all, leakage isn't the same as intentionally directing ki outside of the body.

That would also be fine and not worth getting upset over.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

That would also be fine and not worth getting upset over.

I wouldn't bet on it.

[Cipher]

I wouldn't bet on it.

Oh, no. Don't get me wrong. People will definitely get upset about it.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

I wouldn't bet on it.

Oh, no. Don't get me wrong. People will definitely get upset about it.

The only question is how many pages worth of upset.

[Tectorman]

Has anyone considered another drawback of the 100% SSB, that the requirement of holding all the energy inside acts as a double-edged sword? Goku has to keep all the energy in and under control. Not only is this difficult and self-destructive to do, but doesn't this limit his repertoire? By which I mean, if energy blasts are, by definition, your energy going outside your body and that's the one thing Goku can't do, then he's just lost a large part of his offensive roster. No blasts, no Kamehameha, all he has is what he can physically do.

And yes, post-100%, he hasn't fired a single blast yet. With all that energy inside, he's now stronger, faster, and, most important of all right now, more durable than ever, hopefully enough to turtle Merged Zamasu until the hour's finally up. So 100% SSB is the correct choice now. But prior to this point, if he needed the offensive options of his energy blasts, then this 100% SSB would have been counter-productive, if it indeed follows that 100% SSB disallows any form of energy projection.

That's actually a really good observation. We'll see if Toyotaro plays with this concept, but as of right now, that gives it a pretty interesting trade-off! It's like going back to basics, in a way.

Thanks. It was originally my headcanon as to why Goku didn't opt to use a Grade 3 Warp Kamehameha against Cell. That is to say, since Grade 3 was supposed to be so much more powerful given the same Base, and since Instant Transmission negates Grade 3's speed loss, there needed to be another reason why that combo wasn't an option. The form was passed over by Goku for being too energy intensive; not having enough power for blast attacks would certainly fit that criterion. And we never did see Grade 3 Trunks or Goku use an energy attack back then, either.

This also serves to give a clearer image of just what Goku's doing. All the way back in the fight with Raditz, Goku's Kamehameha was more than twice as powerful as he himself was, since the energy was concentrated at one point. So if we envision this as him making himself a Kamehameha physically embodied, then that likewise allows for his power to shoot up the way it has, via almost the same mechanism even (his energy being concentrated within his body where the Kamehameha is energy concentrated at a point just outside).

It just may be that now he can only dish out physical damage rather than being able to project and to deal vaporizing, searing, explosive, etc kinds of damage. Which is, in fact, a significant trade-off, since the last time he finished off a major opponent with a physical attack was punching through Piccolo Daimyo back in Dragonball (and maybe headbutting Piccolo in the 23rd Tournament, though that was only really a ringout). With opponents being able to withstand more grievous attacks or being able to regenerate or not lose stamina or instant heal, losing your ability to vaporize an opponent would certainly explain Goku's reluctance to use 100% SSB before now.

[Basako]

Also, since Super Saiyan Rose is basically Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, why didn't Black have half of these problems? He never complained about his form being so flawed that he can't maintain full power.

SSR is the version of SSB in a god, it was stated in the manga. But things work differently, starting from the colour of the hair, to other things like the more effective Zenkai boosts that leaded him to have a more powerful Base than SS2 Trunks or a more powerful SS than SSB Vegeta.

He may not have the same flaws, but it's possible that he has them too, we just haven't seen enough. I think we have seen him transformation one or two times and he had Zamasu to cure him before he could realize about any flaw to complain.

No offense, but the manga never said any of this. Black gets boosts because his a new soul in a Saiyan's body, nothing about him being a god. The rest is your headcanon since the manga only said that having god in the body gave it a different hair color, not change the form where it isn't a energy drain.

A new soul? And where was that stated? Ok, my explanation for the different Zenkai is headcanon, but yours is too.

It's not only the hair, it's also the aura, it's totally different. As there are differences in the hair and in the aura, I was considering that other differences were for the same reason of being a god in a saiyans body too, but I can't say it as a definitive. It's still the best theory I see, better than being a new soul. Neither the body nor the soul are new, in fact, it's much older. Nah, I don't see this.

But, as I said, the rose has been shown so little, we just don't know if it has the same flaws or not. I didn't assure it didn't, but I wouldn't consider a problem if it was the case. Not gonna raise my plothole finger for that, as other differences have been seen without any problem.

In any case, I've always said that it makes little sense to me that Black has the rose form. If it was for me, he would have had the exact same transformations, the blue instead the rose and all the same advantages and flaws. But, Toriyama spoke, that's divine word.

[Basako]

Has anyone considered another drawback of the 100% SSB, that the requirement of holding all the energy inside acts as a double-edged sword? Goku has to keep all the energy in and under control. Not only is this difficult and self-destructive to do, but doesn't this limit his repertoire? By which I mean, if energy blasts are, by definition, your energy going outside your body and that's the one thing Goku can't do, then he's just lost a large part of his offensive roster. No blasts, no Kamehameha, all he has is what he can physically do.

And yes, post-100%, he hasn't fired a single blast yet. With all that energy inside, he's now stronger, faster, and, most important of all right now, more durable than ever, hopefully enough to turtle Merged Zamasu until the hour's finally up. So 100% SSB is the correct choice now. But prior to this point, if he needed the offensive options of his energy blasts, then this 100% SSB would have been counter-productive, if it indeed follows that 100% SSB disallows any form of energy projection.

I hadn't consider it, but could be. It also could be in the other direction, that he could canalise the ki in his body to a Kamehameha and make it stronger, who knows.