"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Kanassa
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Postby Kanassa » Thu Mar 22, 2018 7:57 pm

picc wrote:
Kanassa wrote:
picc wrote:even their universe was a literal garbage dump.

And that's exactly why they were sympathetic.

They used freaking poison against U7. AND their GoD and kaioshin tried to assassinate Goku pre tournament!

...And? The stakes of the Tournament are Universal Erasure, trying to put the cards in your favor no matter what isn't a bad thing.


So their universe being a cesspool

Yes, people usually find pity in people being in such a pathetic state. They're literal under-dogs.

and trying to cheat before the tournament makes you more sad they got eliminated?

I'm sorry, are you judging them for trying to cheat? In a Tournament where their ENTIRE UNIVERSE is on the line? :wtf:
When Super apparently shoves Goku down our throats:


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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Postby picc » Thu Mar 22, 2018 8:38 pm

Kanassa wrote:
picc wrote:
Kanassa wrote:And that's exactly why they were sympathetic.


...And? The stakes of the Tournament are Universal Erasure, trying to put the cards in your favor no matter what isn't a bad thing.


So their universe being a cesspool

Yes, people usually find pity in people being in such a pathetic state. They're literal under-dogs.

and trying to cheat before the tournament makes you more sad they got eliminated?

I'm sorry, are you judging them for trying to cheat? In a Tournament where their ENTIRE UNIVERSE is on the line? :wtf:


lol

i can understand the philosophy behind cheating. what i dont get is why cheating would endear them to someone MORE. apparently for you it does. pretty weird, but oooook :thumbup:
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Postby Bergamo » Thu Mar 22, 2018 8:58 pm

I think it's better having the trio de dangers be stronger than Ultimate Gohan when together, but weaker than piccolo when separate. Not every universe should have blue tier fighters.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Postby Marlowe89 » Thu Mar 22, 2018 9:08 pm

Zephyr wrote:Shot in the dark:

Maybe Freeza didn't want his more powerful teammates getting distracted trying to defend the weaker ones? Thin the herd of likely stragglers early on, so the pack leaders can give their full attention, and such.


While that might partially be the case, I think the point was probably just to earn Frost's trust. Frieza's plan may not have worked if he couldn't show Frost that he was willing to betray even his own teammates, so the weakest links in the group were the perfect collateral since they allowed Frieza to persuade Frost without having to sacrifice an especially strong teammate.

Could there have been another way? Perhaps, but not if he was trying to gain Frost's full confidence. I'd bet he could have easily taken out Frost himself, but that might have expended more energy than he thought necessary this early in the game.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Postby Kanassa » Thu Mar 22, 2018 9:12 pm

picc wrote: what i dont get is why cheating would endear them to someone MORE. apparently for you it does. pretty weird, but oooook :thumbup:

People commonly find themselves rooting for those that seem more at a disadvantage, more desperate, ect. I don't see how you're having such trouble understanding how such a thing can make people sympathetic to these characters getting erased from existence.
When Super apparently shoves Goku down our throats:


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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Postby Raphael_Z » Thu Mar 22, 2018 9:31 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:
LightBing wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote:Freeza's plan in the manga was based on the assumption that Krillin, Roshi and Tenshinhan wouldn't contribute anything in the Tournament Of Power because of their strength. And that assumption was completely baseless, as while those three may be weak compared to rest of the team Universe 7 team, how they would have stacked up against the rest of the competitors from the other universes was completely undetermined as they never fought anyone from the other universes. So the assertion that Krillin and Tenshinhan wouldn't have be able to contributed anything to the Tournament Of Power is totally unfounded as we never saw Krillin do anything against anyone and Tenshinhan was put up against an opponent that we already know he couldn't beat. Freeza basically fucked himself over by reducing his chances of getting revived and increasing his chances of being erased by having two of his teammates needlessly eliminated. He could have earned Frost's trust to only to eventually betray him later without fucking himself and Universe 7 over. Freeza in the anime was WAY smarter with this approach.

Can't Freeza feel ki now? That would give him a superficial notion of the average power level going around on the tournament(not counting hidden ki, transformations, etc).
With this he would be able to determine how useful they could be - from a power perspective -, probably not very much taking into account most U9 members could compete with Piccolo.

He didn't reduced his chances he increased them. Kuririn and Tenshinhan wouldn't be able to single-handedly eliminate a Universe of SSJ level warriors while tiring Frost, allowing for his elimination. Frost who's probably in the top 20% of this tournament power-wise.
Their sacrifice was necessary to make Frost trusting him believable.

Even if Freeza could feel the Ki for some of the fighters, judging some based on their suppressed strength is such a stupid thing to do. Hell, the last time Freeza did that himself, his father and some of his army got killed.

And nobody was expecting Krillin or Tenshinhan to eliminates universes single-handedly, but that doesn't mean they wouldn't have been able to eliminate some of the 70 other fighters. Not to mention that having the highest amount of fighters remaining for the longest period is an incredibly important aspect for the context of the Tournament Of Power. If Freeza wanted to earn Frost's trust, that perfectly fine. But there were far more practical ways to going about it.


Yes, but basically, if there are fighters weaker than Krilin and Tien, then those fighters could be easily defeat by...well, anyone else. Krilin and Tien are the Dr. Rota of U7. At least they weren't off-paneled.

Dedicating episodes to Krilin and Tien struggling against enemies that Gohan could have defeated by clicking a finger is just a waste of time.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Postby Captain Awesome » Thu Mar 22, 2018 9:40 pm

Well that chapter wasn't great.

This is rampant speculation but it feels like Toyotaro might be being hurried along, given how quickly Tenshinhan and Kuririn were eliminated.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Postby Akyon » Thu Mar 22, 2018 9:45 pm

picc wrote:I'm more flabbergasted that the extra time spent with U9 in the anime made people MORE upset about their erasure. :wtf: There were almost no redeeming qualities whatsoever about them -- even their universe was a literal garbage dump.

And their fighters were either cocky assholes or cowards who actually jumped from the arena themselves.

They used freaking poison against U7. AND their GoD and kaioshin tried to assassinate Goku pre tournament!

Fuck those guys. I felt nothing at all when got zeno'd, but the only emotion their anime erasure should have elicited is joy.


It's really not that difficult to see why? Good ol' Bergamo is the answer, and he's the reason you even get a smidgen of care for Universe 9 here.

During the exhibition match a lot of people sided with Bergamo. Goku was morally ambigious at best, whilst Bergamo just wanted his brothers, his universe and the other univeses to be left alive. Unlike Goku's "I wanna fight strong opponents and I don't care about the consequences that causes" schtick, this is a far more human and relatable attitude to have.

Honestly I can't blame Sidra and Rou for trying to assassinate Goku pre tournament. Like at all.
It was his fault Zeno was reminded of this tournament to erase everyone, Beerus tried to warn him and he ignored him, and when the Zenos agreed not to erase anyone if Bergamo won against Goku, Goku couldn't even hold back a tiny bit for the continued survival of potentially billions and billions of people.
Goku's practically a bonafide villain during the exhibition match. It's why Toppo wanted to kick his ass so badly, it's why all the GoDs and Kais held a grudge against Universe 7, and it's the reason the fanbase here on Kanzenshuu seemed to turn on the protagonist during that period.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Postby Omniboy » Thu Mar 22, 2018 11:12 pm

From the spoilers I thought that this chapter was going to be disappointing, but I was pleasantly surprised at how awesome it was.

I think that the most surprising thing about this chapter is that it felt like Krillin and Tien had more of effect on the plot and tournament then their anime counter-parts who actually fought and eliminated someone did... even if it was indirectly. But with that said, I think that Toyo could have still been given them something to do, if the limited pages and once-per-month allowed him to that is. I understand that the scheduling, page numbers, and plot points can limit what he can really do and (and it is definitely going to feel less detailed in comparison to the anime, which gets to air 30-minute episodes 4-times a month) . It was a little weird seeing seeing Frost just eliminate them like that.


But, the thing about Frost is... he was fucking awesome this chapter, and I did not expect him to be so cool. And I love how Toyo also used as the rest of the fighters as well. There was actual tension in this chapter in comparison a lot of the anime, which isn't saying much considering that they lack it most of the time. Preserving stamina actually seems to be a major factor in the manga, and shows from Gohan almost powering up at the risk of using all of his energy, to fight Universe 9...only for Frieza to fool Frost into using all of his stamina at the promise the he will take care of the rest. And the way he gained his trust was just so evil and mean, that I wouldn't expect from anyone else. :lol:

Another negative however is that Universe 9's erasure did not really have any impact, which I think that the anime did better. It helps that the anime has a lot more time to dedicate to add details that were not given by Toriyama. We got the time to see their god of destruction and 3 main fighters before the tournament, and as much as I am meh on the anime, they definitely did that right. But universe 9 still did good this chapter. I think that Toyo has really good pacing, and everything feels energetic and lively. I must say that Toyo has really become better as time goes on. As a plus, he has become bolder, and it shows in this chapter, and the previous chapters during and after Goku's fight with merged Zamasu. He went from an artist who had a simple, modernness, gestural db art style that I just so happened to adore, to becoming a story-teller that I enjoy
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Postby TKA » Thu Mar 22, 2018 11:29 pm

Captain Awesome wrote:Well that chapter wasn't great.

This is rampant speculation but it feels like Toyotaro might be being hurried along, given how quickly Tenshinhan and Kuririn were eliminated.


No he isn't.

This is just how the pacing is meant to be. Tenshinhan and Krillin aren't doing anything in this tournament.
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If you're translating Piccolo's speech as archaic, you might as well have Goku be like "Hey y'all, it's me Goku! I ain't no dang ole Saiyan! I'm from Earth, ya hear!?"


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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Postby prince212 » Fri Mar 23, 2018 12:06 am

Omniboy wrote: Toyo has really become better as time goes on. As a plus, he has become bolder, and it shows in this chapter, and the previous chapters during and after Goku's fight with merged Zamasu. He went from an artist who had a simple, modernness, gestural db art style that I just so happened to adore, to becoming a story-teller that I enjoy

Agree 100% , since f.t arc he’s getting loose , he was good before , but he’s becoming excellent, he’s nailing every chapter in the last year .
And that it’s not easy when you are tight like he is with an anime ahead of his manga and some scrips .
He’s putting the balls in the table and , again , he’s nailing it for my taste .
Seems easier to create a new story than develop a story that is already been develop .
I’m not a blind fan , if I have to say that I don’t like how he draw Krillin an Roshi extremely small a couple of times ...I’ll say it .
So I hope he’ll continue like this , the improvement is there .
Anybody knows if he has drawing assistants like other mangakas ?
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Postby picc » Fri Mar 23, 2018 1:55 am

Kanassa wrote:
picc wrote: what i dont get is why cheating would endear them to someone MORE. apparently for you it does. pretty weird, but oooook :thumbup:

People commonly find themselves rooting for those that seem more at a disadvantage, more desperate, ect. I don't see how you're having such trouble understanding how such a thing can make people sympathetic to these characters getting erased from existence.


Rocky was at a disadvantage. Rudy was at a disadvantage. The U9 bunch are amoral, arrogant, cheating pricks who just happen to also come from a shitty universe. So yes, I am indeed having trouble understanding how people are so sympathetic to them.

However, I do recognize that if you choose to support/sympathize characters like that, as ridiculous as it is, its your choice. I think it says far less about the characters than it does about you. But kudos.
Last edited by picc on Fri Mar 23, 2018 2:03 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Postby picc » Fri Mar 23, 2018 1:58 am

Akyon wrote:
picc wrote:I'm more flabbergasted that the extra time spent with U9 in the anime made people MORE upset about their erasure. :wtf: There were almost no redeeming qualities whatsoever about them -- even their universe was a literal garbage dump.

And their fighters were either cocky assholes or cowards who actually jumped from the arena themselves.

They used freaking poison against U7. AND their GoD and kaioshin tried to assassinate Goku pre tournament!

Fuck those guys. I felt nothing at all when got zeno'd, but the only emotion their anime erasure should have elicited is joy.


It's really not that difficult to see why? Good ol' Bergamo is the answer, and he's the reason you even get a smidgen of care for Universe 9 here.

During the exhibition match a lot of people sided with Bergamo. Goku was morally ambigious at best, whilst Bergamo just wanted his brothers, his universe and the other univeses to be left alive. Unlike Goku's "I wanna fight strong opponents and I don't care about the consequences that causes" schtick, this is a far more human and relatable attitude to have.

Honestly I can't blame Sidra and Rou for trying to assassinate Goku pre tournament. Like at all.
It was his fault Zeno was reminded of this tournament to erase everyone, Beerus tried to warn him and he ignored him, and when the Zenos agreed not to erase anyone if Bergamo won against Goku, Goku couldn't even hold back a tiny bit for the continued survival of potentially billions and billions of people.
Goku's practically a bonafide villain during the exhibition match. It's why Toppo wanted to kick his ass so badly, it's why all the GoDs and Kais held a grudge against Universe 7, and it's the reason the fanbase here on Kanzenshuu seemed to turn on the protagonist during that period.


During the Exhibition match, the characters were under the impression that Goku inspired a tournament whose sole purpose was to erase universes.

An incorrect opinion that people on these boards ironically still share, despite it being clearly stated they would have all been erased if not for Goku.

Nothing redeeming about U9 at all.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Postby kemuri07 » Fri Mar 23, 2018 2:52 am

Are we really suggesting that Goku did them all a favor?

Oh yes, instead of everyone getting erased, they know have to participate in a battle royale--and still probaboy get erased

Goku--our hero.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Postby JazzMazz » Fri Mar 23, 2018 2:56 am

kemuri07 wrote:Are we really suggesting that Goku did them all a favor?

Oh yes, instead of everyone getting erased, they know have to participate in a battle royale--and still probaboy get erased

Goku--our hero.

Its better than the alternative, which is just everyone not getting an opportunity to fight for their lives.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Postby picc » Fri Mar 23, 2018 3:00 am

kemuri07 wrote:Are we really suggesting that Goku did them all a favor?

Oh yes, instead of everyone getting erased, they know have to participate in a battle royale--and still probaboy get erased

Goku--our hero.


You literally just answered your own question. Its actually quite amazing you could be indignant about something thats so clearly preferable to the alternative.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Postby kemuri07 » Fri Mar 23, 2018 3:10 am

No I really didn't.

So wait, should U9 have been utterly grateful towards to Goku? Shit, are you now going to tell me that Goku instigated the tournament because he wanted to save everyone?

A shit sandwich is still a shit sandwich, no matter how you try and sugarcoat it.

It also doesn't help at all that Goku was kinda an ass about it.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Postby wolflonnie » Fri Mar 23, 2018 4:07 am

Goku didn't save anybody for a simple reason. We don't know when Zeno would've erased the universes (or if, at all), and, "thanks" to Goku's efforts, it became a certain event happening in that very same day.
Not to mention, there could probably have been a better solution to the problem, like talking to Zeno and just convincing him (Goku could've done it).

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Postby JazzMazz » Fri Mar 23, 2018 4:17 am

kemuri07 wrote:No I really didn't.

So wait, should U9 have been utterly grateful towards to Goku? Shit, are you now going to tell me that Goku instigated the tournament because he wanted to save everyone?

A shit sandwich is still a shit sandwich, no matter how you try and sugarcoat it.

It also doesn't help at all that Goku was kinda an ass about it.

Yes, they should be thankful to Goku for giving them a chance to fight for survival.

On the flip side, they shouldn't be grateful to Goku in the anime for dooming there universe by knocking out all their fighters.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Postby TheMikado » Fri Mar 23, 2018 5:48 am

Really need to end this false justification...
We know for a fact 20 years in the future the universes still exist thanks to the Future Trunks arc which means we know without intervention that this ToP or erasing did not and would not have occurred during that time period. How long or if at all are debatable but it would be reasonable to think it wouldn’t be for a very long time if at all.


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