"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Rakurai]

I don't feel like the manga is being rushed right now, but if it's supposed to lead into the movie or become concurrent with the movie in timeline placement, then it's certainly possible that it might pick up the pace so much that it'll actually start to feel that way to everyone. As it is now, I can't see the tournament wrapping up in eight chapters.

[jeffbr92]

Damn, Toyotaro is such a bad storyteller, I hope this arc don't turn to have the same writing issues the anime had.

[MyNiggaGoku]

I don't get this '' Toyo is rushing through the tournament " argument at all.Ever since the manga started the Goku Black arc, the pacing has been absolutely fine. Maybe this is a matter of preference, but I really can't see what's wrong.

I usually re-read Toriyama's original manga and the pacing feels more or less the same as Toyotaro's pacing with the Goku Black arc and now the ToP. I understand saying this about BoG and sometimes U6(especially its compressed ending).

I get the feeling that if Super chapters were weekly, it wouldn't seem as rushed to some, because the story would be broken down to smaller parts instead of having 1 big monthly chapter with a lot of events happening(or only one big event in some cases).

[Exline]

Damn, Toyotaro is such a bad storyteller, I hope this arc don't turn to have the same writing issues the anime had.

Are you here to just troll..? At least explain why you think that.

[batistabus]

Are you here to just troll..? At least explain why you think that.

There's no reason to acknowledge a post like that.

[jeffbr92]

Are you here to just troll..? At least explain why you think that.

So your definition of troll is someone who doesn't share the same opinion with you?

This chapter was dull, I was hoping to start enjoying the manga more since it's the only content we have releasing now, but still has the same issues: Toyotaro not being able to do anything more than checking off the bullet points in Toriyama's script, keeping a somewhat consistent power scale and making references to the original work as much as possible. Not that the anime was that much better in comparison, but at least we had characters being more organic than only having their presences reduced to explain things happening.

There's no reason to acknowledge someone who don't think the manga is flawess like us.

Fixed for you, man.

[Exline]

Are you here to just troll..? At least explain why you think that.

So your definition of troll is someone who doesn't share the same opinion with you?

This chapter was dull, I was hoping to start enjoying the manga more since it's the only content we have releasing now, but still has the same issues: Toyotaro not being able to do anything more than checking off the bullet points in Toriyama's script, keeping a somewhat consistent power scale and making references to the original work as much as possible. Not that the anime was that much better in comparison, but was least we had characters being more organic than only having their presences reduced to explain things happening.

There's no reason to acknowledge someone who don't think the manga is flawess like us.

Fixed for you, man.

You're actually the first I've referred to like that. It doesn't justify why I called you that though and I apologize. The comment you made seemed so out of place as well to the discussion. It's why I asked you to explain afterwards, because I wanted to hear your full opinion. I don't think the manga is flawless at all either.

You started your comment off with "Damn toyotaro is such a bad storyteller". Seeing that with little to no explanation made me think TROLL instantly as opposed to others who disliked this chapter but also explained their reasons as to why they did not enjoy it.

[batistabus]

There's no reason to acknowledge someone who don't think the manga is flawess like us.

Fixed for you, man.

For someone with over 800 posts on Kanzenshuu, you shouldn't still be producing posts like these. You've posted a one sentence statement that reduces to "This is shit, the author is shit, and the anime is also shit". Thanks for your contribution.

You posted bullshit and then played the victim. It shouldn't require a call-out for you to make an acceptable post.

Toyotaro not being able to do anything more than checking off the bullet points in Toriyama's script,

but at least we had characters being more organic than only having their presences reduced to explain things happening.

I have several issues with this statement. First of all, we don't have Toriyama's outline, so you're making a lot of assumptions. Second, if you consider Toriyama's outline to be what the anime/manga have in common, and you're suggesting that the manga is the anime with less content, that's ridiculous. Third, why do you expect Toyotaro/Toei to vary so far from Toriyama's outline? Why do you assume that would that result in a better story? Finally, this is a hollow, inflammatory statement.

Characters being reduced to exposition and not feeling like themselves is among my biggest issues with the anime. The clearest difference in quality between side characters can be seen with Shin, but it includes just about everybody. Toei writers often feel like they're writing these characters based on what they remember from Dragon Ball as a kid. Toyotaro understands most characters, particularly Goku and Vegeta, much better than most of the writers at Toei. This can be seen through Goku acting like a total buffoon during the Future Trunks arc of the anime in particular, and Vegeta acting too stand-offish at various points in the ToP. Of course, Toriyama's direct supervision helps with this.

[jeffbr92]

For someone with over 800 posts on Kanzenshuu, you shouldn't still be producing posts like these. You've posted a one sentence statement that reduces to "This is shit, the author is shit, and the anime is also shit". Thanks for your contribution.

No, that was just your misinterpretation which actually is consistent with your attitude here in this thread, always salty whenever someone has a negative opinion about the manga. Also I don't get the "for someone with 800 posts you shouldn't..." mind explaining me? Because I didn't know in this forum you need a x number of posts to express your opinion.

Third, why do you expect Toyotaro/Toei to vary so far from Toriyama's outline? Why do you assume that would that result in a better story? Finally, this is a hollow, inflammatory statement. Toyotaro understands most characters, particularly Goku and Vegeta, much better than most of the writers at Toei.

Because that's what actually happens between the medias? MSSJB is not a thing in the anime as KK+SSJB is not a thing in the manga? They gone through different routes before, don't know why they can't go now.
Toyotaro knowing how to write better Goku and Vegeta just proves he don't know what to do with everyone else, we have large cast, especially in this arc and Toei did a better job at this point. That could improve on the next chapter? Sure, but who knows? I'm analysing what's been done so far.

[batistabus]

For someone with over 800 posts on Kanzenshuu, you shouldn't still be producing posts like these. You've posted a one sentence statement that reduces to "This is shit, the author is shit, and the anime is also shit". Thanks for your contribution.

No, that was just your misinterpretation which actually is consistent with your attitude here in this thread, always salty whenever someone has a negative opinion about the manga. Also I don't get the "for someone with 800 posts you shouldn't..." mind explaining me? Because I didn't know in this forum you need a x number of posts to express your opinion.

I have a problem when people make bare-bones negative comments like you just did, or when people harshly criticize the manga based on misinformation/misunderstanding.

The difference between Kanzenshuu and other forums is that there's is an expectation for you to put effort into what you say here. Your follow-up post was fine, but you shouldn't require a call-out to post something worth reading. I'll never suggest that anyone shouldn't make posts simply because I don't agree with what's being said. What you submitted hardly qualifies as a post. It was an inflammatory, single-sentence statement that amounted to a Reddit down-vote and nothing more. Save it.

Having been around long enough to accumulate 800 posts, you should have realized that by now. And assuming the 92 in your username stands for 1992, I don't think I should have to explain this to a 26 year old. Playing the victim isn't helping your case here.

[TKA]

always salty whenever someone has a negative opinion about the manga.

Attack the argument, not the person.

Your initial post was curt and for something with such a strong assertion, it definitely lacked substance. Posters then, rightfully, asked you to clarify what you meant. You took offense to that.

---------------------------

Thus far only the Jiren fight has required Goku's full power, and he wasn't damaged too badly since Jiren rarely went on offense. That's good because it avoids the anime's issue where characters take 3 minute breaks and are suddenly at full power again. Toyotaro needs to make sure he doesn't have characters going all out too many times or it will break suspension of disbelief.

[batistabus]

Third, why do you expect Toyotaro/Toei to vary so far from Toriyama's outline? Why do you assume that would that result in a better story? Finally, this is a hollow, inflammatory statement. Toyotaro understands most characters, particularly Goku and Vegeta, much better than most of the writers at Toei.

Because that's what actually happens between the medias? MSSJB is not a thing in the anime as KK+SSJB is not a thing in the manga? They gone through different routes before, don't know why they can't go now.
Toyotaro knowing how to write better Goku and Vegeta just proves he don't know what to do with everyone else, we have large cast, especially in this arc and Toei did a better job at this point. That could improve on the next chapter? Sure, but who knows? I'm analysing what's been done so far.

I guess I just don't understand what point you're trying to make. You're saying that Toyotaro is just checking points off of a list, but you just gave an example of how he's not just doing that. Saying his manga is just a series of bullet points is obviously not true because there wouldn't be a story if that were the case. Is this meant to be a criticism about the manga quick pacing, or are you saying the manga is too similar to the anime?

Knowing how to write Goku and Vegeta properly is a HUGE benefit to Toyotaro's manga over the anime. They are the main characters. As for the side characters, who do you think the anime handled particularly well? I don't think they handled anyone horribly outside of Shin. Who do you thing was handled poorly in the manga? Are you referring to the larger role that the side characters had in the anime's ToP?

[OLKv3]

I don't see how Goku is written better in this arc. I thought the ToP anime arc had him be very in character, and fit perfectly with the Goku we've been following since BoG and especially RoF
The manga is showing a more aggressive, prideful side of him, and that's fine (though I strongly dislike him dropping out of the fight with Jiren) that doesn't make him better written than the anime, where he acknowledged that he needed to team with Vegeta and 17 to beat Jiren. I think the anime is still getting a bad rap from how he acted during the early-mid Future Trunks arc.

[TKA]

I don't see how Goku is written better in this arc. I thought the ToP anime arc had him be very in character, and fit perfectly with the Goku we've been following since BoG and especially RoF
The manga is showing a more aggressive, prideful side of him, and that's fine (though I strongly dislike him dropping out of the fight with Jiren) that doesn't make him better written than the anime, where he acknowledged that he needed to team with Vegeta and 17 to beat Jiren. I think the anime is still getting a bad rap from how he acted during the early-mid Future Trunks arc.

The anime is getting a bad rap because these moments that are reflected in the manga, in the anime, are also spaced out by a ton of inconsequential padded episodes of absolutely nothing of relevance where Goku's character wildly fluctuates. A lot of people seem blind to the fact that the manga's biggest strength is that it isn't anywhere near as bloated and diluted as the anime is. That's why Manga Goku seems so much better than anime Goku: he isn't fluctuating wildly from chapter to chapter, whereas anime Goku varied from episode to episode as multiple different teams write and animate him. As a result, Anime Goku isn't coherent and is clouded with a lot of white noise.

[batistabus]

I don't see how Goku is written better in this arc. I thought the ToP anime arc had him be very in character, and fit perfectly with the Goku we've been following since BoG and especially RoF
The manga is showing a more aggressive, prideful side of him, and that's fine (though I strongly dislike him dropping out of the fight with Jiren) that doesn't make him better written than the anime, where he acknowledged that he needed to team with Vegeta and 17 to beat Jiren. I think the anime is still getting a bad rap from how he acted during the early-mid Future Trunks arc.

I will agree that he is better written in the ToP arc than he is up until the end of the Future Trunks arc of the anime. By that point, I thought he was in a pretty good spot. Even so, the manga gives us more of Goku to chew on. When he speaks, we get a better insight into how he works. The end of the anime had several moments where they managed to show how Goku is different than other protagonists (like when he explicitly says he isn't a hero of justice), but even that is done in a way that is a little too blatant when compared to the original Dragon Ball manga. Toyotaro manages to portray Goku perfectly in moments where Goku talks a lot, as well as when he barely says anything. Bigger moments include when Goku lectures Zamasu about how he's being used by Black, as well as when Goku deconstructs the strategies of his rivals (Vegeta in the FT arc, Jiren in this chapter). Smaller moments include "I knew I wasn't suited for that kind of technique after all" (after failing the Mafuba) and "Lord Beerus! I'm sorry I called your technique horrible! But I'll be using it now!" (before using Destruction on Zamasu). Just like with the anime, Goku will end up resorting to team work once Migatte no Goku isn't enough to take down Jiren, so I don't give the anime extra points for that yet. The biggest benefit that the anime has over the manga in terms of making the character on-screen feel like Goku is Nozawa's performance.

Maybe I am giving Toyotaro too much credit; if Toriyama was going to be particular about anything, it would be about how Goku is portrayed. Regardless, it is something that elevates the manga highly for me.

The anime is getting a bad rap because these moments that are reflected in the manga are also spaced out by a ton of inconsequential padded episodes of absolutely nothing of relevance where Goku's character wildly fluctuates. A lot of people seem blind to the fact that the manga's biggest strength is that it isn't anywhere near as bloated and diluted as the anime is. That's why Manga Goku seems so much better than anime Goku: he isn't fluctuating wildly from chapter to chapter, while anime Goku varied from episode to episode as different teams write and animate.

Also, this.

-------------

Hit's Time-Shift reminded me a lot of this scene from Toyble's AF manga:
[spoiler][/spoiler]
The moment where Gohan slashes Xicor with the Z-Sword is definitely the highlight of Toyotaro's pre-Super work for me. It was the perfect mix of a nod established lore, giving Kibitoshin something to do, and impactful paneling. I would've liked to have seen that technique make a return in Super, but since the Mafuba already happened, I don't think that's very likely. Still, now that we know that Beerus is the one that sealed the Elder Kaioshin, it might've been cool for him to have learned that sealing technique while training on Beerus' world.

[jeffbr92]

The difference between Kanzenshuu and other forums is that there's is an expectation for you to put effort into what you say here. Your follow-up post was fine, but you shouldn't require a call-out to post something worth reading. I'll never suggest that anyone shouldn't make posts simply because I don't agree with what's being said. What you submitted hardly qualifies as a post. It was an inflammatory, single-sentence statement that amounted to a Reddit down-vote and nothing more. Save it

I've seen many posting what you call "inflammatory single-sentence statement" and I have no issues with these, if I disagree with their opinion I ask for them to elaborate, it's simple. What you did was a storm in a teacup.

I guess I just don't understand what point you're trying to make. You're saying that Toyotaro is just checking points off of a list, but you just gave an example of how he's not just doing that. Saying his manga is just a series of bullet points is obviously not true because there wouldn't be a story if that were the case. Is this meant to be a criticism about the manga quick pacing, or are you saying the manga is too similar to the anime?

Knowing how to write Goku and Vegeta properly is a HUGE benefit to Toyotaro's manga over the anime. They are the main characters. As for the side characters, who do you think the anime handled particularly well? I don't think they handled anyone horribly outside of Shin. Who do you thing was handled poorly in the manga? Are you referring to the larger role that the side characters had in the anime's ToP?

How he's not doing that? You said before "we have no access to Toriyama outlines". The main issue with the manga is that is not cohesive with the anime, which is comprehensible since one was made to promote the other, but people speculates what's valid for the main story and the only thing we know is that Toriyama aproves both. Since we have these small differences between these medias, then Toyotaro should go even further on that as Toei did (just speculation but many believe that God Toppo and SSJBE Vegeta are anime only) to keep readers interested in a story they already know how will unfold.

Is not that huge since is not like Goku and Vegeta were full-time OOC in the anime, the problem is the rotation of Toei writers between episodes who seems to work each on their own. Up to this point the anime did a better job with Krillin, Tien 17, Freeza, Hit, Gohan and provided interesting background to some universes while in the manga these characters are "just there" to fill the gap, there's little to no investment with them, the only thing that I like is Jiren characterization so far, but that could change.

Attack the argument, not the person. Your initial post was curt and for something with such a strong assertion, it definitely lacked substance. Posters then, rightfully, asked you to clarify what you meant. You took offense to that.

Wasn't you the person who had to be called out by other users for taking as offense them having opinions contrary to yours? That's the pot calling the kettle black.

[batistabus]

I've seen many posting what you call "inflammatory single-sentence statement" and I have no issues with these, if I disagree with their opinion I ask for them to elaborate, it's simple. What you did was a storm in a teacup.

Since we have these small differences between these medias, then Toyotaro should go even further on that as Toei did (just speculation but many believe that God Toppo and SSJBE Vegeta are anime only) to keep readers interested in a story they already know how will unfold.

Up to this point the anime did a better job with Krillin, Tien 17, Freeza, Hit, Gohan and provided interesting background to some universes while in the manga these characters are "just there" to fill the gap, there's little to no investment with them, the only thing that I like is Jiren characterization so far, but that could change.

While I love that metaphor, my initial interaction was suggesting that Exline shouldn't engage with a post that lacks substance. You turned it into an attack on the both of us, so I let you know that sort of conduct isn't what I want to see on Kanzenshuu. Just because you see other people posting crap, that doesn't mean it's okay. The mods can't be everywhere at once.

But the manga has already mixed up the formula quite a bit. In fact, many people are complaining about just how much it has happened. Toppo was revealed as a God of Destruction candidate at the exhibition match and was shown to have God ki right then and there. Characters that had episodes dedicated to them in the anime were eliminated in an instant in the manga. Hit has already been eliminated 3 chapters into the tournament, and he developed a technique that didn't exist in the anime. If Toyotaro were to do something so extremely different from the anime, such as eliminating Vegeta in the first chapter, that would be too much of a deviance from Toriyama's outline. It's about finding the right balance, but it's fine if you're not satisfied with what he's come up with.

I don't think Kuririn and Tenshinhan were treated especially well in the anime. They did more things, but that doesn't mean their screen time is meaningful. For me, what they went through was a lot of buildup for little-to-no payoff (especially in Tenshinhan's case, who was reduced to Yamcha levels of useless). I guess I didn't hate what they did with Kuririn and No. 18, but I could just as easily do without it. Focusing on these characters felt like unnecessary padding more than anything else, which is something the manga doesn't need.

Freeza has been treated extremely well in the manga, with a bit more sinister take on his personality than what the anime went with. Of course, the Freeza recruitment episodes had some of the best scenes of the Super anime, but I don't necessarily wish they existed in the manga. Just because one medium has good moments, that doesn't mean the other is doing a bad job by not including them. While I did like "sexual chemistry" Freeza in the anime, I feel this one is more in line with someone who has been tormented in Hell for the past few decades.

I like Hit in the anime, but he seems more like a caricature of a Jojo character than his own thing. That's my problem with a lot of what the anime did with the other universes; they were turned into meta-jokes/references that don't feel entirely in line with Toriyama's style.

It's too early to say for Gohan, but the anime didn't do him any favors by building him up as the "team leader" and then doing absolutely nothing with it.

[TKA]

Wasn't you the person who had to be called out by other users for taking as offense them having opinions contrary to yours? That's the pot calling the kettle black.

It helps if you actually bother reading the thread:

Someone was offended by the way I posted(note: not what I posted, but how I posted).

Instead of being childish, I apologized for offending anyone.

If you offend someone, instead of saying "I didn't offend you," just apologize, man. Apologize and do better. It literally costs you nothing, but means a lot to other people. This is a discussion. Discussions tend to flow better when people aren't treating each other like children.

Statements like "The manga is trash" mean nothing and further the discussion in no way whatsoever. Statements like "The manga is trash and here's why [include rest of argument here]" actually have value and can be debated and dissected (and you bet your ass I'll be there to pick it apart). That's posting in good faith, instead of this childish poop-slinging.

Do better.

The main issue with the manga is that is not cohesive with the anime

I don't see how this is an issue. The anime exists. What possible value could there be in a manga that is literally just the anime's story? There is no value in such a thing and it's a waste of readers' and Toyotaro's time.

[Saiga]

I don't think Kuririn and Tenshinhan were treated especially well in the anime. They did more things, but that doesn't mean their screen time is meaningful. For me, what they went through was a lot of buildup for little-to-no payoff (especially in Tenshinhan's case, who was reduced to Yamcha levels of useless). I guess I didn't hate what they did with Kuririn and No. 18, but I could just as easily do without it. Focusing on these characters felt like unnecessary padding more than anything else, which is something the manga doesn't need.

I definitely agree with this. It's the same way I feel about Hit's treatment in the anime compared to the manga. He may have got to do more, and they may have tried to make him look cooler, but it wasn't as meaningful. I liked the idea of his fight with Dyspo - but I think the execution is lacking, since the way Hit countered Dyspo's advantages didn't really make sense, and in order for Hit to look good they ended up making Dyspo look really bad which led to Dyspo getting a pseudo-transformation just to make up for it. As for Hit vs Jiren, the anime version didn't work as well for me even though with its 'cool' moments because it had Hit going well beyond what seemed reasonable for him which makes the moment fall flat.

In the manga, Hit's new technique and reason for improving both make sense and are more reasonable for him. That makes it much more effective. Similarly, with Kuririn and Tenshinhan their accomplishments in the anime just fell flat, because they were poorly executed and had little justification behind them.

One thing I think the anime did do well on was having Hit use his time skip to keep his allies in the ring. That was a neat little detail.

Ultimately, I didn't like this chapter as much as I did the previous one, but that's because the last chapter made very efficient use of some plot threads that the anime had handled very poorly - the human's elimination, the U9 fights and the Frost/Freeza betrayal subplot. When compared to how the anime spaced these out and justified them so poorly, the manga does a great job making Freeza's 'betrayal' feel more believable, but giving it a point (eliminating Frost and U9 with it) without being truly detrimental. In the anime, it made no sense that Freeza would waste his own stamina and Gohan's in order to just ring out Frost, who he could easily defeat without needing to use his Golden form or let Gohan get injured. In the manga, he's not just eliminating Frost (with minimal effort) but making the most of Frosts' power in having him eliminate the U9 fighters. Freeza sacrificing Kuririn and Tenshinhan to do so makes his plan very unsavoury to the cast, while being much more practical than forcing Gohan to take a beating.

And has already been pointed out, having Frost go all out but be eliminated fits in much better with the premise that the characters should be holding back. Whereas the anime has Freeza waste his and Gohan's energy on nothing, while having Goku and Vegeta bring out Blue to deal with the Trio de Dangers.

I still like this chapter - it was a good idea to have Jiren vs Goku end up with Goku decisively beaten (one punch away from ring out) without being completely exhausted/physically beaten down like he did in his anime fight. That lead to the issue of Goku's stamina problems not actually mattering as he'd just continue to find the energy needed to keep fighting not matter what he went through. The interaction between Goku and Jiren is also nice, I like that Jiren acknowledged Goku for something other than strength (there's potential for more depth there) and is also shown conserving energy strategically.

That's my problem with a lot of what the anime did with the other universes; they were turned into meta-jokes/references that don't feel entirely in line with Toriyama's style.

I feel that way about much of the anime's additional details. GodPads and the emphasis on Godtube both spring to mind as feeling very un-Toriyama ways of adding pop culture references.

[Asura]

I don't see what jeffbr92 said that was wrong. He could have immediately elaborated why he felt that Toyotaro was a bad storyteller, but he's not trolling, and to say to not even acknowledge his post is silly. Posts like that should lead to fostered discussion.