"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Sora Saiyan]

The manga makes them look like a fearsome duo because of how well-coordinated they act together.

Except they're not, really. They bicker and got close to turning against each-other when they were being beaten. This is something I feel could work under the context of the anime continuity, where the two have different personalities. But here? Here it makes no sense considering they're the same person. It makes them look incompetent.

Gotta say, I don’t think the manga makes them look like a fearsome duo at all, Zamasu is super weak when compared to Goku (like he should be), so his only good point is that he can regenerate when he gets stomped. When you watch how easily he was dealt with by Godku, when he was pissing around, it makes Zamasus immortality look useless.

I think the bicker they had felt very natural, at a time when everything they planned was about to crumble most people would be annoyed with their self, and question a lot of things they’ve done that have led to their downfall. especially when they can be as childish as those two. So watching the argument was sorta like that externalised, but nowhere near as bad, a lot of people beat themselves up over really trivial things, this was a pretty major moment.
Would’ve been cool to see a twisted take on the saying “you’re your own worst enemy”, but they had the potara trump card to calm the situation.

[Whatever]

This. So very much this. I've made the same case for Hit's performance in the manga here once before. I'm still irritated by this community "consensus" that Hit was a "weakling" or "fodder" in the manga during the Universe 6 tournament. As far as I can tell, it appears to be one of the many other community memes that has gotten exaggerated over time and slowing accepted as actual fact. From what I've observed, repeating misinterpretations (whether incidentally or maliciuously deliberate) until they become understood as "fact", is a trend that has a startling rate of occurrence in the Dragon Ball fandom.

Does Goku telling Vegeta in the end of the arc that he would have beaten Hit had he not wasted SSJB on Cabba not enough proof that manga Hit is not only considered a weakling by the fandom but by Goku himself as well?

Goten and Trunks' fusion training came with character development. Before they even started Fusion training they had gotten plenty of chances to show their characters, and we got to see them change. The fusion training was the point where they came of age and matured into the warriors that would take over for Goku (that didn't end up happening, but that's beside the point).

Goten and Trunks before they went to the HTC wanted to avenged their parents that were killed by Buu.
Then after that they focused on putting a show or performance instead of taking it seriously like they seemed to do before they went in.
Thats not character development but character regression,or depending on how you see it they stayed the same,not like Gotenks had much of an impact on the plot anyways,he was close to glorrified filler.

[Rebel Instinct]

Does Goku telling Vegeta in the end of the arc that he would have beaten Hit had he not wasted SSJB on Cabba not enough proof that manga Hit is not only considered a weakling by the fandom but by Goku himself as well?.

Did you actually read the rest of my post or did you just read the part you quoted before replying?

While it's true that the fight wasn't nearly as dead even as it was in the anime, all Goku managed to accomplish in the end was overcome Hit's timeskip a few times. Hit even tanked a blast from Super Saiyan God head-on with no real injuries. Goku even at his maximum power (at the time) still couldn't land a finishing blow on Hit. He still managed to dodge Goku's Kamehameha with only minor burns to one of his arms. After escaping the Kamehameha, Hit was still good to go and was ready to continue his fight with Goku. Knowing how short-lived the power of Super Saiyan Blue was at the time, there's no guarantee that his power would have lasted any longer than Hit's would have. If Goku hadn't realized that Hit was holding back (quote "That means you are much stronger than I've seen so far.") and forfeited the match, it realistically could have gone either way.

Since Super Saiyan Blue itself was the absolute pinnacle of Goku's strength in the manga at the time and plays the exact same role that Blue Kaio-ken does in the anime (with Super Saiyan God filling the role of Blue), any feats during the battle have to be looked at specifically through that lens. Disregarding Kaio-ken, what happened at the end of the fight in the manga was almost exactly what happened at the end of the fight in the anime. It took Goku's most powerful form to overcome Hit's improved timeskip to get off a Kamehameha that didn't even connect. Going by what the manga had established as Goku's uppermost limits, Hit's performance is just as impressive in the manga as it is in the anime - relatively speaking. There was no tier of power for Goku beyond Super Saiyan Blue at the time and Hit still dodged a final attack from it with minor injuries and was ready to keep fighting. Based on the manga's own scale, that is an impressive feat.

Just because Hit in the manga isn't physically as powerful as his anime self, it doesn't mean that he was weak. It just means that he is in the same ballpark as the manga's version of Super Saiyan Blue - a feat that's rather impressive by the standards set by the manga itself, especially considering that the only other individual opponent to exceed that level prior to Toppo was Goku Black.

Of course, I'm fairly certain that you have no real intention of discussing this subject in good faith and your question was meant to be a snarky and rhetorical retort. Still, I have to ask, did Super Saiyan 2 Gohan defeating Perfect Cell mean Perfect Cell was a weakling? Did Goku saying he could've beaten Fat Buu using Super Saiyan 3 mean Fat Buu was a weakling? Did Goku bringing Golden Frieza to his knees mean Golden Frieza was a weakling? Did Vegeta beating Toppo mean Toppo is a weakling?

No, it doesn't. Being capable of beating an opponent isn't the same thing as said opponent being weak. As I explained in my previous post, it took the strongest form Goku had in his repertoire to fight properly against a Hit who was holding back his killing techniques and it still wasn't enough to land a decisive finishing blow. That makes Hit only slightly below Super Saiyan Blue Goku and Vegeta at the time. If that makes Hit a "weakling", then every antagonist who pushed the protagonists to their most powerful forms before losing in a close match is also a "weakling".

[sintzu]

Does Goku telling Vegeta in the end of the arc that he would have beaten Hit had he not wasted SSJB on Cabba not enough proof that manga Hit is not only considered a weakling by the fandom but by Goku himself as well?

Someone brought up a good point (either somewhere in this topic or another one) that although the manga may have somewhat weak villains, at least they're not overpowered like their anime counterparts.

[JazzMazz]

Does Goku telling Vegeta in the end of the arc that he would have beaten Hit had he not wasted SSJB on Cabba not enough proof that manga Hit is not only considered a weakling by the fandom but by Goku himself as well?

Someone brought up a good point (either somewhere in this topic or another one) that although the manga may have somewhat weak villains, at least they're not overpowered like their anime counterparts.

Um, how is that necessarily a good thing?

Espicially for shonen series, wouldn't that be see more as detriment to the progression of the story than a genuine benefit?

[Hawk9211]

Does Goku telling Vegeta in the end of the arc that he would have beaten Hit had he not wasted SSJB on Cabba not enough proof that manga Hit is not only considered a weakling by the fandom but by Goku himself as well?

Someone brought up a good point (either somewhere in this topic or another one) that although the manga may have somewhat weak villains, at least they're not overpowered like their anime counterparts.

Um, how is that necessarily a good thing?

Espicially for shonen series, wouldn't that be see more as detriment to the progression of the story than a genuine benefit?

Really op villains require an unhealthy amount of pis to be beaten.

[JazzMazz]

Someone brought up a good point (either somewhere in this topic or another one) that although the manga may have somewhat weak villains, at least they're not overpowered like their anime counterparts.

Um, how is that necessarily a good thing?

Espicially for shonen series, wouldn't that be see more as detriment to the progression of the story than a genuine benefit?

Really op villains require an unhealthy amount of pis to be beaten.

Not necessarily.

It is harder to do in a satisfactory manner, but its far from impossible.

Just look at Namek arc, Freeza was the most OP villain in the history of the show, with seemingly infinite reserves of strength, but they were able to handle his defeat and the battles towards his defeat extremely well.

Hell, I think Toyo was able to do a solid job with how he handled the defeat of merged Zamasu, which didn't fall into the writing traps of its anime counter-parts underwhelming finale.

[Whatever]

Of course, I'm fairly certain that you have no real intention of discussing this subject in good faith and your question was meant to be a snarky and rhetorical retort. Still, I have to ask, did Super Saiyan 2 Gohan defeating Perfect Cell mean Perfect Cell was a weakling? Did Goku saying he could've beaten Fat Buu using Super Saiyan 3 mean Fat Buu was a weakling? Did Goku bringing Golden Frieza to his knees mean Golden Frieza was a weakling? Did Vegeta beating Toppo mean Toppo is a weakling?

No, it doesn't. Being capable of beating an opponent isn't the same thing as said opponent being weak. As I explained in my previous post, it took the strongest form Goku had in his repertoire to fight properly against a Hit who was holding back his killing techniques and it still wasn't enough to land a decisive finishing blow. That makes Hit only slightly below Super Saiyan Blue Goku and Vegeta at the time. If that makes Hit a "weakling", then every antagonist who pushed the protagonists to their most powerful forms before losing in a close match is also a "weakling".

I read it but the reason i responded specifically to this part is in respond to your statement that Hit being a 'weakling' is a meme or the fandom exaggerates this.
First lets make it clear that Hit was a 'weakling' in the sense that he was too underwhelming for someone being the strongest and final opponent of this arc.
In the end of this arc we have Goku tellling Vegeta(the 2nd strongest of the team)that he could have beaten him if he was at full power.

Examples you mentioned like Gohan vs Cell,Goku vs Fat Buu,worked because the villain pushed the 'hero' to go full power without going full power themselves,not to mention in both cases at those specific points in time,the villain was still the 2nd strongest and easily defeated the 2nd strongest of the Z fighters,meanwhile lets see with Hit how it went.
Hit went full power against SSJG Goku,defeated the 2nd strongest of Goku's team but not really since we learn later that Vegeta could have defeated him anyways,meaning that Goku who is stronger than Vegeta could do it easier.
At the Champa arc,team U7 had only 2 fighters that were worthwhile,Goku and Vegeta and yet the strongest of U6 could be defeated by both of them.

Golden Freeza is a different case altogether,Freeza was stronger than both Goku and Vegeta but only lost because of his own shorcomings,Hit never stood a chance at winning from the beggining against both Goku and Vegeta,in fact the only reason he even won against Vegeta was of Vegeta's own shortcoming instead of his own skill or power.

Vegeta and Toppo worked as well because it was second fiddle vs second fiddle,Toppo worked because he was the secondary boss battle,if Toppo was the main opponent instead of Jirren then yeah he would underwhelming and a weakling of a final boss.
The opposite holds true for Hit,his standing and achievement would be fine if he was the second fiddle as well.

Hit was a weakling for someone who is the final opponent of the arc he appeared in,to use your examples imagine how underwhelming Fat Buu would be if ssj2 majin Vegeta was stronger than him or both Goku and Gohan being stronger than Cell.

[Exline]

Does Goku telling Vegeta in the end of the arc that he would have beaten Hit had he not wasted SSJB on Cabba not enough proof that manga Hit is not only considered a weakling by the fandom but by Goku himself as well?

Someone brought up a good point (either somewhere in this topic or another one) that although the manga may have somewhat weak villains, at least they're not overpowered like their anime counterparts.

Um, how is that necessarily a good thing?

Espicially for shonen series, wouldn't that be see more as detriment to the progression of the story than a genuine benefit?

Sintzu probably meant the villains in the manga are weaker compared to their anime counterparts that seem extremly overpowered.

We have all made numerous replies trying to explain why Hit is not a weakling and I feel most of the replies, specifically Rebel Instinct’s, are not being read thoroughly.

You guys probably view the manga antagonists as weaker because their power is more balanced compared to the protagonists and is not as overexaggreted in the anime.

Someone in the Kaioken vs. CSSB Thread even questions as to why Goku has to do a Kaioken x10. It seems like an absurd power boost for someone who is already powerful and is close to Hit’s level in the anime. Especially so early in the arc when they just defeated Golden Frieza without KK Blue. The anime really fails to give SSB proper screen time and only seems to make it look weaker and weaker post Ressurection F arc.

Is that what you really want in your series? Your protagonist to constantly be weaker only to get an absurd boost in power for the sake of a flashy spectacle when he returns to fight his opponent? And the same goes for the villain as well. Do they really need to be that powerful with little explanation? Does that really make a villain “better”?

If you’re referring to the personality of these antagonists in the anime version, I sort of get it.

But I really hope people would eventually understand that a story with a more balanced and grounded antagonist is a better way of portraying them as opposed to one with absurd and over the top power boosts.

[JazzMazz]

Someone brought up a good point (either somewhere in this topic or another one) that although the manga may have somewhat weak villains, at least they're not overpowered like their anime counterparts.

Um, how is that necessarily a good thing?

Espicially for shonen series, wouldn't that be see more as detriment to the progression of the story than a genuine benefit?

Sintzu probably meant the villains in the manga are weaker compared to their anime counterparts that seem extremly overpowered.

We have all made numerous replies trying to explain why Hit is not a weakling and I feel most of the replies, specifically Rebel Instinct’s, are not being read thoroughly.

You guys probably view the manga antagonists as weaker because their power is more balanced compared to the protagonists and is not as overexaggreted in the anime.

Someone in the Kaioken vs. CSSB Thread even questions as to why Goku has to do a Kaioken x10. It seems like an absurd power boost for someone who is already powerful and is close to Hit’s level in the anime. Especially so early in the arc when they just defeated Golden Frieza without KK Blue. The anime really fails to give SSB proper screen time and only seems to make it look weaker and weaker post Ressurection F arc.

Is that what you really want in your series? Your protagonist to constantly be weaker only to get an absurd boost in power for the sake of a flashy spectacle when he returns to fight his opponent? And the same goes for the villain as well. Do they really need to be that powerful with little explanation? Does that really make a villain “better”?

If you’re referring to the personality of these antagonists in the anime version, I sort of get it.

But I really hope people would eventually understand that a story with a more balanced and grounded antagonist is a better way of portraying them as opposed to one with absurd and over the top power boosts.

The reason why people think Hit is weak is because Toyotaro never framed the character in a particularly threatening light, and I mean that quite literally. Toyo, in my opinion, completely failed to create any real intimidation around the character, due to Toyo never really posing him in a particularly powerful manner over our protagonists. He is always presented, quite literally, as being a little flat, and I don't think I can blame people for that poor presentation in a VISUAL MEDIUM leading them to believe that Hit is actually weak, when he was never visually presented as really being otherwise, which is something the anime staff went out of their way to make sure off when handling the character. In the context of the story, Hit is by no means a weakling, however, he merely comes off as one due to never really being framed in a position of power for any extended period of time. In other words, I, and a lot of other people feel that Toyo really didn't visually sell the imposing nature of the character, which is a common complaint I personally have with Toyo's manga.

My above argument is what I typically mean when I say the manga antagonists look weak. In context, they are usually supposed to be intimidating(even though I could argue that is hardly ever the case), however, I feel Toyo doesn't go the extra mile with how he frames his antagonists, which is something that is blatantly obvious when you see the anime's staff's attempts at framing antagonists(mind you, this is only really true for specific, truly talented members of the staff), with episodes like episode 38 and 65 having far stronger basic compositions than the manga. Toyo's weak unique compositions and framing in comparison, really doesn't help sell how imposing these characters should be, and that's something I stand by when talking about the majority of Toyo's stuff up to the TOP really.

I say the TOP, because of late his really seemed to be trying to improve his general panelling and layouts, and with definitively stronger character writing in this section of the arc, I feel like he definitely has a shot a blowing the anime's interpretation of the TOP out of the water(not that doing that is particularly hard to do).

[Rebel Instinct]

You and I have diametrically differing ideas of what the term "weakling" means. I think the word you're looking for is "underwhelming". Hit being around the same level as the strongest protagonist is not what anyone can accurately describe as weak. You just personally find this level of power for an antagonist unsatisfying. That's not something I was arguing against since that's up to the individual to decide.

First lets make it clear that Hit was a 'weakling' in the sense that he was too underwhelming for someone being the strongest and final opponent of this arc.
In the end of this arc we have Goku tellling Vegeta(the 2nd strongest of the team)that he could have beaten him if he was at full power.

Hit went full power against SSJG Goku,defeated the 2nd strongest of Goku's team but not really since we learn later that Vegeta could have defeated him anyways,meaning that Goku who is stronger than Vegeta could do it easier.

As I mentioned, Hit is not weak. You felt he was underwhelming as an antagonist. A character being factually weak and feeling underwhelming are two completely different things. Also, there is nothing suggesting that Vegeta was weaker than Goku in any way. From all observable and stated information, the two were equals in power. Suggesting that Hit was only as strong as the 2nd strongest character on the Universe 7 team is not accurate. The top spot on the team was shared by two people equally and Hit was nearly as strong as either of them while handicapped.

Examples you mentioned like Gohan vs Cell,Goku vs Fat Buu,worked because the villain pushed the 'hero' to go full power without going full power themselves,not to mention in both cases at those specific points in time,the villain was still the 2nd strongest and easily defeated the 2nd strongest of the Z fighters,meanwhile lets see with Hit how it went.

---

At the Champa arc,team U7 had only 2 fighters that were worthwhile,Goku and Vegeta and yet the strongest of U6 could be defeated by both of them.

Pushing the heroes to go full power before going full power themselves is an incredibly specific criteria for judging the merit of an antagonist. It doesn't matter who goes full power first, what matters is how the two opponents stack up afterwards and who would've beaten who in the end. By Goku's estimate at the end of the fight, he and Vegeta might've been able to defeat Hit in a one on fight, but only with the handicap of Hit not being able to use all of his techniques. Unrestricted by the tournament's rules, Goku gauged that Hit was actually much stronger than he appeared to be. With Goku/Vegeta only being slightly stronger than a handicapped Hit, it means that Hit would be a much more dangerous opponent if he was allowed to go all out.

Golden Freeza is a different case altogether,Freeza was stronger than both Goku and Vegeta but only lost because of his own shorcomings,Hit never stood a chance at winning from the beggining against both Goku and Vegeta,in fact the only reason he even won against Vegeta was of Vegeta's own shortcoming instead of his own skill or power.

With the short-lived nature of Super Saiyan Blue's power, Hit stood a very real chance of winning against either Goku or Vegeta. Goku (Vegeta's equal) in his strongest form wasn't able to finish off Hit. The most he was able to accomplish was overcoming Hit's timeskip and almost landing a Kamehameha. Hit was fine and still ready to keep fighting afterwards. With the limited use of Super Saiyan Blue at the time and the large amount of energy Goku had just expended, there's no way of knowing whose power would have given out first. It was a close match. Without the rules of the tournament holding him back, there's no telling how the fight would go.

Vegeta and Toppo worked as well because it was second fiddle vs second fiddle,Toppo worked because he was the secondary boss battle,if Toppo was the main opponent instead of Jirren then yeah he would underwhelming and a weakling of a final boss.
The opposite holds true for Hit,his standing and achievement would be fine if he was the second fiddle as well.

The example of Vegeta beating Toppo (and Goku vs. Golden Frieza for that matter) was specifically in regards to the idea of being able to defeat an opponent making that opponent a "weakling". The framing of the fight was irrelevant to the point. I could've used Goku beating Jiren as an example and the point would remain the same: being capable of beating an opponent doesn't make said opponent weak. Your original argument was that Goku saying that Vegeta could've beaten Hit meant Hit was a weakling. My point was that that is not an accurate statement and that an opponent can still be very strong regardless of whether or not someone can beat them.

Hit was a weakling for someone who is the final opponent of the arc he appeared in,to use your examples imagine how underwhelming Fat Buu would be if ssj2 majin Vegeta was stronger than him or both Goku and Gohan being stronger than Cell.

Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta was not equal to Super Saiyan 3 Goku, so that comparison doesn't work. Vegeta and Goku were equals at the time of the tournament. That aside, the idea of an antagonist being a weakling if more than one hero is capable of beating them doesn't hold much weight. Kid Buu, for example, could have been beaten by Gotenks, Gohan and Goku. This didn't undermine the final battle with Buu since only Goku was left to fight him. If they weren't written out of the plot first or if Goku and Vegeta had used the Potara, Kid Buu would've been defeated with minimal effort. In a similar vein, Vegeta was written out of the running for defeating Hit and Goku was the only one left to challenge him. To me, this doesn't lessen the merit of Hit's showing against Goku. Really, that's the crux of the argument of whether or not Hit was underwhelming - having more than one character that is technically capable of defeating the antagonist doesn't undermine the fight for me. What matters to me is whether or not the antagonist puts up a good fight against the hero that does get to fight them. Hit put up a good fight against the strongest protagonist at the time, so I don't have a problem with it.

To reiterate, Hit is not weak. Hit is Super Saiyan Blue-tier strong. He was nearly equal to the two equally strongest heroes at the time. The fact that there were two heroes who shared the top spot and were capable of defeating him made Hit seem underwhelming to you. This does not make Hit weak, it means that he isn't as strong as you'd prefer him to be. I don't intend to argue against that interpretation because it is a personal feeling and not a fact that is right or wrong. I won't argue feelings, since that leads nowhere.

[TKA]

Gotta say, I don’t think the manga makes them look like a fearsome duo at all, Zamasu is super weak when compared to Goku (like he should be), so his only good point is that he can regenerate when he gets stomped. When you watch how easily he was dealt with by Godku, when he was pissing around, it makes Zamasus immortality look useless.

But... that's the point. They're a duo. The manga makes it clear that without Zamas, Black would get destroyed, and without Black, Zamas' immortality doesn't mean anything. Together, however, they're a real threat. Which is how it should be, otherwise why did Zamas bother stealing Goku's body? Why did Black bother with recruiting Zamas?

Characters need flaws to be compelling. Them having obvious weaknesses made them a more interesting threat, especially for dragonball where villains are often singular, rather than plural.

[Bergamo]

Um, how is that necessarily a good thing?

Espicially for shonen series, wouldn't that be see more as detriment to the progression of the story than a genuine benefit?

Sintzu probably meant the villains in the manga are weaker compared to their anime counterparts that seem extremly overpowered.

We have all made numerous replies trying to explain why Hit is not a weakling and I feel most of the replies, specifically Rebel Instinct’s, are not being read thoroughly.

You guys probably view the manga antagonists as weaker because their power is more balanced compared to the protagonists and is not as overexaggreted in the anime.

Someone in the Kaioken vs. CSSB Thread even questions as to why Goku has to do a Kaioken x10. It seems like an absurd power boost for someone who is already powerful and is close to Hit’s level in the anime. Especially so early in the arc when they just defeated Golden Frieza without KK Blue. The anime really fails to give SSB proper screen time and only seems to make it look weaker and weaker post Ressurection F arc.

Is that what you really want in your series? Your protagonist to constantly be weaker only to get an absurd boost in power for the sake of a flashy spectacle when he returns to fight his opponent? And the same goes for the villain as well. Do they really need to be that powerful with little explanation? Does that really make a villain “better”?

If you’re referring to the personality of these antagonists in the anime version, I sort of get it.

But I really hope people would eventually understand that a story with a more balanced and grounded antagonist is a better way of portraying them as opposed to one with absurd and over the top power boosts.

The reason why people think Hit is weak is because Toyotaro never framed the character in a particularly threatening light, and I mean that quite literally. Toyo, in my opinion, completely failed to create any real intimidation around the character, due to Toyo never really posing him in a particularly powerful manner over our protagonists. He is always presented, quite literally, as being a little flat, and I don't think I can blame people for that poor presentation in a VISUAL MEDIUM leading them to believe that Hit is actually weak, when he was never visually presented as really being otherwise, which is something the anime staff went out of their way to make sure off when handling the character. In the context of the story, Hit is by no means a weakling, however, he merely comes off as one due to never really being framed in a position of power for any extended period of time. In other words, I, and a lot of other people feel that Toyo really didn't visually sell the imposing nature of the character, which is a common complaint I personally have with Toyo's manga.

My above argument is what I typically mean when I say the manga antagonists look weak. In context, they are usually supposed to be intimidating(even though I could argue that is hardly ever the case), however, I feel Toyo doesn't go the extra mile with how he frames his antagonists, which is something that is blatantly obvious when you see the anime's staff's attempts at framing antagonists(mind you, this is only really true for specific, truly talented members of the staff), with episodes like episode 38 and 65 having far stronger basic compositions than the manga. Toyo's weak unique compositions and framing in comparison, really doesn't help sell how imposing these characters should be, and that's something I stand by when talking about the majority of Toyo's stuff up to the TOP really.

I say the TOP, because of late his really seemed to be trying to improve his general panelling and layouts, and with definitively stronger character writing in this section of the arc, I feel like he definitely has a shot a blowing the anime's interpretation of the TOP out of the water(not that doing that is particularly hard to do).

I don't exactly know what you mean by framing, but the panel where Black and Trunks were standing in the rain and Black says he's going to spare Trunks' life is one of the most dramatic shots of a villain in Dragonball. There are also many other great panels like the one where SS1 Black and Vegeta punch eachother, and Black has the biggest smirk on his face. I think Black was very imposing, and just because he wasn't ripping open holes in space-time doesn't mean he didn't look like a threat.

[Whatever]

As I mentioned, Hit is not weak. You felt he was underwhelming as an antagonist. A character being factually weak and feeling underwhelming are two completely different things. Also, there is nothing suggesting that Vegeta was weaker than Goku in any way. From all observable and stated information, the two were equals in power. Suggesting that Hit was only as strong as the 2nd strongest character on the Universe 7 team is not accurate. The top spot on the team was shared by two people equally and Hit was nearly as strong as either of them while handicapped.

Goku and Vegeta are close in power but the Goku is stronger despite the gap beiing very small if their sparring match on Beerus planet is anything to go by,so if anything their gap is comparable to what Goku and Piccolo was when they fought.

Pushing the heroes to go full power before going full power themselves is an incredibly specific criteria for judging the merit of an antagonist. It doesn't matter who goes full power first, what matters is how the two opponents stack up afterwards and who would've beaten who in the end. By Goku's estimate at the end of the fight, he and Vegeta might've been able to defeat Hit in a one on fight, but only with the handicap of Hit not being able to use all of his techniques. Unrestricted by the tournament's rules, Goku gauged that Hit was actually much stronger than he appeared to be. With Goku/Vegeta only being slightly stronger than a handicapped Hit, it means that Hit would be a much more dangerous opponent if he was allowed to go all out.

Thats usually one of the criteria(or rather niches of db) that tells us in advance if the current antagonist is of any merit,as soon as Hit went all out on SSJG Goku,we knew he was not going to be very threatening and it was over for him.
While you have a point about Hit being restricted to use his killing tenchinques,its left in the air about how effective or good they are in the manga,for all we know Goku could overpower them just as easily he did with the Time Skip.

With the short-lived nature of Super Saiyan Blue's power, Hit stood a very real chance of winning against either Goku or Vegeta. Goku (Vegeta's equal) in his strongest form wasn't able to finish off Hit. The most he was able to accomplish was overcoming Hit's timeskip and almost landing a Kamehameha. Hit was fine and still ready to keep fighting afterwards. With the limited use of Super Saiyan Blue at the time and the large amount of energy Goku had just expended, there's no way of knowing whose power would have given out first. It was a close match. Without the rules of the tournament holding him back, there's no telling how the fight would go.

Hit also had stamina problems with using his full power as well and even with short lived nature of Super Saiyan Blue's power Goku still says that Vegeta could have beaten Hit as well.Not to mention that by Hits words the Time skip he used would be the last one he would be able to use.

The example of Vegeta beating Toppo (and Goku vs. Golden Frieza for that matter) was specifically in regards to the idea of being able to defeat an opponent making that opponent a "weakling". The framing of the fight was irrelevant to the point. I could've used Goku beating Jiren as an example and the point would remain the same: being capable of beating an opponent doesn't make said opponent weak. Your original argument was that Goku saying that Vegeta could've beaten Hit meant Hit was a weakling. My point was that that is not an accurate statement and that an opponent can still be very strong regardless of whether or not someone can beat them.

But the example of Vegeta beating Toppo and Goku beating Jiren is very different since they both play different roles and they have different standards they have to meet to conclude whatever they were weak or not.Toppo was strong for a second fiddle and Jiren as well for being the ace of U11.
Jiren was strong because nobody but UI Goku could beat him 1vs1 and even then Jiren could outlast him.

You and I have diametrically differing ideas of what the term "weakling" means. I think the word you're looking for is "underwhelming". Hit being around the same level as the strongest protagonist is not what anyone can accurately describe as weak. You just personally find this level of power for an antagonist unsatisfying. That's not something I was arguing against since that's up to the individual to decide.

reiterate, Hit is not weak. Hit is Super Saiyan Blue-tier strong. He was nearly equal to the two equally strongest heroes at the time. The fact that there were two heroes who shared the top spot and were capable of defeating him made Hit seem underwhelming to you. This does not make Hit weak, it means that he isn't as strong as you'd prefer him to be. I don't intend to argue against that interpretation because it is a personal feeling and not a fact that is right or wrong. I won't argue feelings, since that leads nowhere.

While we may have gotten sidetracked and overanalyzed the points we want to make,i am gonna make myself as clear and to the point as i can get.
The point i was trying to make there is a valid reason why the community "consensus" that Hit was a "weakling" or "fodder" in the manga during the Universe 6 tournament.

Hit as the final boss character of the Champa arc has some specific standarts to meet which the general consesus seems to agree that he really failled to do so.
He failled to ever feel threatening(both narative and power wise) because he was weak enough to never being able to get the upper hand on Super Saiyan Blue despite its stamina problems on top of being confirmed that he would have not been able to beat Vegeta as well.

So in even fewer words,manga Hit is a weakling for final boss/opponent of an arc standards,thats what the community judged him on and thats why he is being considered one.

[Marlowe89]

You and I have diametrically differing ideas of what the term "weakling" means. I think the word you're looking for is "underwhelming".

I'd just like to add my input here and say that you're absolutely right about this, and I think it's important that a distinction needs to be made. This is something I'm admittedly guilty of myself; on numerous occasions I've called the manga's version of Hit a "pushover", although really what I mean is that he's not portrayed to be the imposing obstacle I would have liked him to be. I stand by that assessment -- for me, it was a situation where both the anime and manga went to opposite extremes when it came to justifying Hit as a challenge for Goku. I'm personally inclined to side with the manga on this, though, since it's ultimately more congruent with the narrative and much less confusing than the anime's take, despite the latter being more suspenseful.

On the subject of Hit's strength, I'd also like to mention that it's actually not all that different between mediums. The anime goes out of its way to (repeatedly) state that Hit's raw power never technically increases from the point that he's at a disadvantage against Super Saiyan Blue Goku; he just continuously improves his finesse as well as the length of his Time-Skip ability, which somehow allows him to fight on par with Kaioken Blue. This is roughly equivalent to his limited full power state in the manga, although I suppose the case can be made that the anime's Hit is more of a threat due to not having nearly the same technique-related limitations.

[Exline]

The reason why people think Hit is weak is because Toyotaro never framed the character in a particularly threatening light, and I mean that quite literally. Toyo, in my opinion, completely failed to create any real intimidation around the character, due to Toyo never really posing him in a particularly powerful manner over our protagonists. He is always presented, quite literally, as being a little flat, and I don't think I can blame people for that poor presentation in a VISUAL MEDIUM leading them to believe that Hit is actually weak, when he was never visually presented as really being otherwise, which is something the anime staff went out of their way to make sure off when handling the character. In the context of the story, Hit is by no means a weakling, however, he merely comes off as one due to never really being framed in a position of power for any extended period of time. In other words, I, and a lot of other people feel that Toyo really didn't visually sell the imposing nature of the character, which is a common complaint I personally have with Toyo's manga.

My above argument is what I typically mean when I say the manga antagonists look weak. In context, they are usually supposed to be intimidating(even though I could argue that is hardly ever the case), however, I feel Toyo doesn't go the extra mile with how he frames his antagonists, which is something that is blatantly obvious when you see the anime's staff's attempts at framing antagonists(mind you, this is only really true for specific, truly talented members of the staff), with episodes like episode 38 and 65 having far stronger basic compositions than the manga. Toyo's weak unique compositions and framing in comparison, really doesn't help sell how imposing these characters should be, and that's something I stand by when talking about the majority of Toyo's stuff up to the TOP really.

I say the TOP, because of late his really seemed to be trying to improve his general panelling and layouts, and with definitively stronger character writing in this section of the arc, I feel like he definitely has a shot a blowing the anime's interpretation of the TOP out of the water(not that doing that is particularly hard to do).

AH Okay! I apologize for misunderstanding what you were saying previously. I do agree that Toyo's portrayal of these villains can be very poor at times. Hit was never shown to be powerful indeed, that spotlight was given to Goku for the majority of their battle which Toyo made the mistake of doing.

Even though I agree with you on that, I still never saw Hit as a "weakling" like most people say. A guy who just barely dodges a God Kamehameha from a SSB Goku easily demonstrates how powerful he is. Hit is not all about his Time Skip like most of the fandom believes. He is first and foremost an assassin. Toyotaro's mistake was not expanding upon that. The fact we didn't get any hint of what his killing techniques could be is what makes Goku's forfeit seem somewhat confusing. I can see that. But you can't call a guy who can take on SSG and SSB a Weakling.

I also disagree with you saying he hasn't improved with his antagonists up until TOP. He did incredibly well with Zamasu, Black, and Zamasu. Yes, Goku Black was significantly weaker than SSB Vegeta at first. When Zamasu appeared to save and heal him, it was such an interesting twist as to how he then bested Vegeta, revealing that he used the saiyan's hallmark trait.. Zenkai Boosts! He used Zenkai Boosts against Vegeta! Vegeta in Namek Arc would go on about his Zenkai Boosts like Toppo in the anime would go on about justice. Having that slap Vegeta in the face proves to me how incredible of a writer Toyo is starting to become. I feel that made Black terrifying due to his ability to go beyond the limits on his mortal body with his divine soul inside of it. He could keep getting stronger and stronger and stronger each time. It's a simple and easy method when your partner is someone who can constantly heal you afterwards. They had no other option but to escape and leave Trunks behind. That is enough tension to incorporate into that scene to tell me how powerful Black is and can become.

[Bergamo]

I think that the u6 arc is really great with a confusing and lackluster ending, but it works really well as part of the overarching story around the evolution of Super Saiyan Blue. Hit vs Goku established Blue's stamina issue and Super Saiyan God as a useful tool for storing energy, which are expounded upon in the next arc. Blue and God, their limitations, and their drawbacks are developed upon so well in the Black arc that Goku explains his fight against Hit better than the manga did during the actual fight. I think while Hit could have been done better, his fight justified the entire next arc, which shouldn't be overlooked.

[prince212]

Gotta say, I don’t think the manga makes them look like a fearsome duo at all, Zamasu is super weak when compared to Goku (like he should be), so his only good point is that he can regenerate when he gets stomped. When you watch how easily he was dealt with by Godku, when he was pissing around, it makes Zamasus immortality look useless.

But... that's the point. They're a duo. The manga makes it clear that without Zamas, Black would get destroyed, and without Black, Zamas' immortality doesn't mean anything. Together, however, they're a real threat. Which is how it should be, otherwise why did Zamas bother stealing Goku's body? Why did Black bother with recruiting Zamas?

, that’s the point , they complement each other nicely in the manga , that also added god healing powers

[batistabus]

Hit is Super Saiyan Blue-tier strong.

I agree with almost everything you said, but I think you're overselling Hit's strength a bit. When Hit is only able to hold SSG Goku for less than 0.1 second, Whis comments:

Goku's power has become far superior to that of Hit's. That's what's happening here. Hit's skills are only effective against opponents who are near or below his level.

Now, Hit is still able to stop SSG fully when he attempts to time-skip again, so I'd say he's somewhere near that level. That being said, it still seems likely that he would be a threat to a SSB with full use of his killing techniques. Goku thinks so, anyway.

Just clarifying.

He failled to ever feel threatening(both narative and power wise) because he was weak enough to never being able to get the upper hand on Super Saiyan Blue despite its stamina problems on top of being confirmed that he would have not been able to beat Vegeta as well.

The only reason you're saying this is because of the end result. The fact that Vegeta was only at a fraction of his power wasn't revealed until after the fight, so immediately after he loses, we're left thinking he just straight-up lost. Regardless of his power, he still wasn't able to figure out the gimmick to beating the technique. Even when Goku had figured out time-skip, there was still the issue of losing stamina quicker than Hit in order to keep up.

Of course, in retrospect we learn that things weren't quite the way we had initially thought, but I think that's fine considering the low-stakes tone presented throughout the entire tournament. The major appeals of this arc are the character interactions, fight gimmicks, and humor. All of those are great, so I'm perfectly fine with an antagonist who didn't end up being the biggest threat in the grand scheme of things. It's the same as how things were in the JSAT 2008 special and RoF. Even Zamasu and Black - who's actions had massive consequences - were nowhere near the might of Vegeta and Goku working together. That's a major consequence of Super being the B-side to Dragon Ball, and that's the type of story Toriyama wants to tell nowadays. The manga tells it like it is, while the anime tries to make it out to be grander than it aught to be. Feel free to like what you like, but I feel like many people have set themselves up for disappointment when it comes to Super in general.

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

I do agree that the manga in its start did not do well with presenting the new antagonists as very threatening which is a loss, unlike the anime that did present Beerus, Hit, Goku Black better, but the manga going off that issue did present Cabba, and Kale as much more competent for their own mystery unliike the anime that portrays them as very incompetent and childish, and definitely does Jiren better for making him look very imposing but noble. Toyotaro's second chance would be to give Hit his own fight in the TOP to reintroduce him as much stronger than he was in the U6 arc. That would require him being shown faster and nigh-untouchable before he is fight again by Goku if that happens. Maybe if the scenario was for Goku to fight him again in the TOP that Hit should beat him (not ring him out) but show a speed advantage and claim he improved much like the anime to fix that.