"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[precita]

The manga arc of the TOP is hot garbage. Every U7 fighter is useless and fodder, besides Goku/Vegeta and Freeza/17. Krillin, Tien, 18 and Piccolo especially was absolutely pointless in the manga, they couldn't give them anything to do like the anime? Roshi will probably be handled similarly before he gets knocked out, and I'm willing to bet Gohan doesn't do much before Freeza knocks him out with Dyspo.

Good god. And people wanted the anime TOP to be fast paced like this? Given how much people hated Tien's poor treatment in the anime, the complaining and backlash would have been huge if every character was handled the way the manga is. The whole U7 cast is garbage here.

[TKA]

He feels just as unbeatable.

I guess you feel like beerus is also a weakling in the manga, since he had to stop playing around to murder stomp CSSB vegeta...

No, he doesn't. The anime made him feel so powerful than when characters started fighting him seriously near the end it felt unbelievable.

Here, he's strong but not ridiculously so. He didn't just no-sell Hit's offense like he did in the anime; here he had to use actual strategy to beat Hit instead of being "stronger than time" (whatever in the blue hell that means). This sets the precedent that a character can be powerful enough that Jiren has to fight them seriously.

As to the Beerus thing, yeah, you're right. In the manga, Beerus needing to get serious establishes that the characters have actually grown and progressed to the point where he can't just laugh them off anymore. That's a good thing, both for Goku and Vegeta AND for the story.

The manga arc of the TOP is hot garbage. Every U7 fighter is useless and fodder, besides Goku/Vegeta and Freeza/17. Krillin, Tien, 18 and Piccolo especially was absolutely pointless in the manga
.

Are you even reading the art or are you just looking at elimination lists and determining your argument from that? You people seem to have a distinct inability to perceive context. I mean, I guess Vegeta was weaker than Gohan in the saiyan arc since Gohan beat him, right? Jeez. Ignoring the extenuating circumstances around each elimination and the narrative point to them getting eliminated is pretty silly.

[LightBing]

I actually hate how Toyotarou had a battle between Gokou and Jiren but we were unable to see it. Probably nothing happened

10 minutes passed since the start of Jiren vs Hit and the end of this chapter. I wouldn't be surprised if Goku and Jiren fought for like 2/3 minutes in-universe until they were interrupted. Like you said probably nothing happened and feeling is intentional.

[precita]

I read the whole issue in english online on Viz's site, both 18 and Piccolo were handled horribly. They literally have pointless quick fights and their roles were non-existent. The anime did things with them especially 18, and Piccolo had good moments with the Nameks and some minor fights before that. Krillin/Tien were useless. Roshi will likely get a few panels of glory and since Gohan didn't get to take out Botamo, I'm willing to bet Gohan barely does anything in the manga...in fact I wouldn't be surprised if he's knocked out by Freeza or Dyspo in the very next issue.

If the anime was like this, the TOP would have been hated.

[Kenneth La Torre]

He feels just as unbeatable.

I guess you feel like beerus is also a weakling in the manga, since he had to stop playing around to murder stomp CSSB vegeta...

No, he doesn't. The anime made him feel so powerful than when characters started fighting him seriously near the end it felt unbelievable.

Here, he's strong but not ridiculously so. He didn't just no-sell Hit's offense like he did in the anime; here he had to use actual strategy to beat Hit instead of being "stronger than time" (whatever in the blue hell that means). This sets the precedent that a character can be powerful enough that Jiren has to fight them seriously.

As to the Beerus thing, yeah, you're right. In the manga, Beerus needing to get serious establishes that the characters have actually grown and progressed to the point where he can't just laugh them off anymore. That's a good thing, both for Goku and Vegeta AND for the story.

The manga arc of the TOP is hot garbage. Every U7 fighter is useless and fodder, besides Goku/Vegeta and Freeza/17. Krillin, Tien, 18 and Piccolo especially was absolutely pointless in the manga
.

Are you even reading the art or are you just looking at elimination lists and determining your argument from that? You people seem to have a distinct inability to perceive context. I mean, I guess Vegeta was weaker than Gohan in the saiyan arc since Gohan beat him, right? Jeez. Ignoring the extenuating circumstances around each elimination and the narrative point to them getting eliminated is pretty silly.

He did no sell hita technique, in fact, it was ineffective as soon as hit used it. He just baited hit cause he could and because he wanted to.
The dide is just as unbeatable. He even tanked a kamehameha at point blank effortlessly.

[Exline]

He feels just as unbeatable.

I guess you feel like beerus is also a weakling in the manga, since he had to stop playing around to murder stomp CSSB vegeta...

No, he doesn't. The anime made him feel so powerful than when characters started fighting him seriously near the end it felt unbelievable.

Here, he's strong but not ridiculously so. He didn't just no-sell Hit's offense like he did in the anime; here he had to use actual strategy to beat Hit instead of being "stronger than time" (whatever in the blue hell that means). This sets the precedent that a character can be powerful enough that Jiren has to fight them seriously.

As to the Beerus thing, yeah, you're right. In the manga, Beerus needing to get serious establishes that the characters have actually grown and progressed to the point where he can't just laugh them off anymore. That's a good thing, both for Goku and Vegeta AND for the story.

Actually, I did find Jiren quite formidable since he is shown to be much stronger than Hit and Goku, two well-established powerful warriors. He even eliminated Hit in a 1HKO with just his base power, who was doing much better than Completed SSB Goku.

It was Chapter 36 that kind of makes me question this. Sure, he's probably smart by avoiding the invisible U4 fighter, but I felt that was such a great opportunity to show off Jiren's capabilities as he could have been the one to get rid of Damon instead of 17. However, Jiren retreats with Dyspo, making him look more cautious and less capable imo. You would think such a powerful person could handle any type of enemy.

I don't understand why Toei, Toyotaro and Toriyama all advocate for such an incredibly boring and useless plot point centered around 17 being able to have such great hearing that he locate any animal.


Thinking about it now, Episode 119 handled Gamisaras and Damon much better to be honest, disregarding the methods of their elimination. Especially the idea of having Damon work alongside Shantza in masking himself with the use of his illusions. I don't think just because Gamisaras knocked out more people in the manga justifies that he was better utilized in this medium. It hurts me to insult Toyotaro by claiming the writer of a terrible episode like 119 did better with these characters compared to him.

[Meshack]

I read the whole issue in english online on Viz's site, both 18 and Piccolo were handled horribly. They literally have pointless quick fights and their roles were non-existent. The anime did things with them especially 18, and Piccolo had good moments with the Nameks and some minor fights before that. Krillin/Tien were useless. Roshi will likely get a few panels of glory and since Gohan didn't get to take out Botamo, I'm willing to bet Gohan barely does anything in the manga...in fact I wouldn't be surprised if he's knocked out by Freeza or Dyspo in the very next issue.

If the anime was like this, the TOP would have been hated.

You’re forgetting that Toyotarou has limited space and can’t drag things on unlike the animated version. These characters probably didn’t do much in Toriyama's script anyway. Toyotarou has things to do and can’t drag stuff along with characters like Piccolo and No. 18

[TKA]

However, Jiren retreats with Dyspo, making him look more cautious and less powerful imo. You would think such an unbeatable person could handle any type of enemy.

I actually found that to be great. It makes Jiren another fighter instead of a god. It makes it more believable that he isn't just flying across the stage eliminating everyone, because not even he is invincible. This Jiren has also established bits about his character from his first appearance in the manga, which humanized him more. The anime went for Jiren just being unassailable, and I found that boring. The manga is making him a character—one with vulnerabilities.

As most Superman writers will tell you, characters are easier to write for when they aren't invincible.

I don't understand why Toei, Toyotaro and Toriyama all advocate for such an incredibly boring and useless plot point centered around 17 being able to have such great hearing that he locate any animal.

It's just a small detail. Hardly worth thinking about, while still being a clever way for him to eliminate the tiny guy.

He did no sell hita technique, in fact, it was ineffective as soon as hit used it. He just baited hit cause he could and because he wanted to.

What? No. That isn't what happened at all, lol. Hit used a move that slowed Jiren down, but Jiren is fast enough normally to just be moving at "average" speed while the technique is in effect. He then suckered Hit to the edge of the stage and got a surprise hit in when Hit's guard was down. This is literally the same way Toppo beat Goku even though Toppo is weaker.

Goku even comments that Jiren purposefully played possum to lure Hit into making a mistake. The only reason he had to do that was because he couldn't just overpower Hit.

He even tanked a kamehameha at point blank effortlessly.

Because he's stronger than an out-of-shape Goku, yes.

You’re forgetting that Toyotarou has limited space and can’t drag things on unlike the animated version. These characters probably didn’t do much in Toriyama's script anyway. Toyotarou has things to do and can’t drag tuff along with characters like Piccolo and No. 18

The best thing about how Toyotaro has them eliminated is it's almost always from being blindsided. The only characters that got eliminated by being overpowered are Tenshinhan and Krillin, which was to be expected. And even so, Frost eliminating them promptly was part of Frieza's ploy which led to almost an entire universe getting eliminated from the tournament AND led to Frost's own elimination.

This doesn't feel like episodic hijinks. Events are playing into each other.

[Marlowe89]

I read the whole issue in english online on Viz's site, both 18 and Piccolo were handled horribly. They literally have pointless quick fights and their roles were non-existent.

Nonsense. Their roles were to demonstrate the narrative impact both invisible warriors had on the tournament and establish the latter's presence as a viable threat to Universe 7. Their roles were to provide sufficient context cues for figuring out how to defeat their opponents, especially in Piccolo's case. It's not like 18 and Piccolo weren't given any time in the spotlight either; they simply weren't given more than needed for their purpose in the story, which is fine and arguably necessary for the setting.

If it doesn't seem like the arc's frantic nature allows for show-stopping fanservice all the time, that's because it doesn't. The point, as I've said in the other thread, is to establish the obstacles encountered by Universe 7 as a whole; something that the manga is simply better at than the anime. Again, this is an issue people need to take with the outline if it's not their cup of tea, not the guy following through on the basic premise of a battle royale.

[Dragono]

I understand why many are angry. This Arc was a fanservice arc, there is no story here and thats not a bad thing. The anime knew that for the most part and thats why U7 had such a great showing and truth be told, I was greatly ok with that.



Now, we have characters we don't care about beating characters we do and there is no enjoyment factor here. No fanservice for a fanservice arc leaves nothing for the viewer who knows the true purpose.

[jeffbr92]

Toyotaro is the greatest artist of our generation.
[spoiler][/spoiler]

Is he going to be in serious trouble for this?

I really hope so. This franchise should not be smeared (again) because of a cheap plagiarizer.

You know, it was one thing for Vegeta to call himself the "number #1 Saiyan" in the anime not too long after Goku achieving Ultra Instinct, but calling himself the strongest being in all of existence reaches far beyond arrogance and goes straight to acting moronic. Vegeta in the anime, may have acted cocky, arrogant and prideful, but it never reached that extreme.

Vegeta's characterization in both the anime and manga has bothered me a lot. It feels like he's regressed so much since the Boo arc.

Seeing how Vegeta characterization feels lackluster in both medias, it saddens me that this might be something from Toriyama himself which means he forgot the whole development his character got in the last arc of the original manga.

[Exline]

However, Jiren retreats with Dyspo, making him look more cautious and less powerful imo. You would think such an unbeatable person could handle any type of enemy.

I actually found that to be great. It makes Jiren another fighter instead of a god. It makes it more believable that he isn't just flying across the stage eliminating everyone, because not even he is invincible. This Jiren has also established bits about his character from his first appearance in the manga, which humanized him more. The anime went for Jiren just being unassailable, and I found that boring. The manga is making him a character—one with vulnerabilities.

As most Superman writers will tell you, characters are easier to write for when they aren't invincible.

I too found Jiren's immense strength in the anime boring after a while. It was also annoying how inconsistent his strength becomes in the last few episodes. However, I don't think making him seem less imposing is a great way of selling his character, I think it in fact hurts his character, especially after what the anime did to show how powerful he and Goku are. Jiren hasn't really demonstrated that he is capable of more powerful attacks then Merged Zamasu, even though we know he is based on him thrashing CSSB Goku around. We have yet to see what he is truly capable of aside from using his fists. His initial fight with Goku was incredibly underwhelming compared to the anime which at least had some dynamic scenes that projected just how powerful of a fighter he is.

I may be looking too deep into this though, especially for such a forgettable action by Jiren haha.

I don't understand why Toei, Toyotaro and Toriyama all advocate for such an incredibly boring and useless plot point centered around 17 being able to have such great hearing that he locate any animal.

It's just a small detail. Hardly worth thinking about, while still being a clever way for him to eliminate the tiny guy.

I don't think it's fair to call it a small detail as he was responsible for the elimination of Piccolo, a important member of U7 and an individual with super hearing. I think you or someone else mentioned that at the moment, he was eliminated because he did not assume the fighter would be a tiny bug and believed it was another invisible man. It was rather clever, but in both mediums, I think's safe to admit they both fall a bit flat and are poorly executed.

You’re forgetting that Toyotarou has limited space and can’t drag things on unlike the animated version. These characters probably didn’t do much in Toriyama's script anyway. Toyotarou has things to do and can’t drag tuff along with characters like Piccolo and No. 18

The best thing about how Toyotaro has them eliminated is it's almost always from being blindsided. The only characters that got eliminated by being overpowered are Tenshinhan and Krillin, which was to be expected. And even so, Frost eliminating them promptly was part of Frieza's ploy which led to almost an entire universe getting eliminated from the tournament AND led to Frost's own elimination.

This doesn't feel like episodic hijinks. Events are playing into each other.[/quote

Wait so people didn't enjoy that feel of the tournament? I enjoyed that aspect the most! Each universe and their characters getting some of htier own separate episodes was neat, but not utilized very well. I wish they had taken advantage of it to teach us more about their universe.

[jeffbr92]

Toriyama hiding millions does but you do you.

What are you even talking about?

I feel Toyotaro's tracing is another reason to dislike his manga.

I wouldn't go that far, but by the end of the manga, Toyotaro should be fired for the best of the franchise.

[Exline]

I read the whole issue in english online on Viz's site, both 18 and Piccolo were handled horribly. They literally have pointless quick fights and their roles were non-existent.

Nonsense. Their roles were to demonstrate the narrative impact both invisible warriors had on the tournament and establish the latter's presence as a viable threat to Universe 7. Their roles were to provide sufficient context cues for figuring out how to defeat their opponents, especially in Piccolo's case. It's not like 18 and Piccolo weren't given any time in the spotlight either; they simply weren't given more than needed for their purpose in the story, which is fine and arguably necessary for the setting.

The problem is Toyotaro hasn't really executed them well. Like I said before in my response to TKA, Episode 119 handled both Damon and Gamisaras better in terms of their utilization as opposed to their use in the manga where they just got more eliminations.

Thinking about it now, Episode 119 handled Gamisaras and Damon much better to be honest, disregarding the methods of their elimination. Especially the idea of having Damon work alongside Shantza in masking himself with the use of his illusions. I don't think just because Gamisaras knocked out more people in the manga justifies that he was better utilized in this medium. It hurts me to insult Toyotaro by claiming the writer of a terrible episode like 119 did better with these characters compared to him.

If it doesn't seem like the arc's frantic nature allows for show-stopping fanservice all the time, that's because it doesn't. The point, as I've said in the other thread, is to establish the obstacles encountered by Universe 7 as a whole; something that the manga is simply better at than the anime. Again, this is an issue people need to take with the outline if it's not their cup of tea, not the guy following through on the basic premise of a battle royale.

The obstacles that occur in the manga's interpretation are very short-lived and have been executed a bit poorly. Most were great changes, such as Frost taking out U9 and the fight between Jiren vs. Hit was done much better in the manga compared to the repetitive time skips and oddly forced "family" dynamic in U6. They don't really entertain me and I'm going to assume most readers as well. If these obstacles aren't executed well, then it leaves little to no impact. Ribrianne's inclusion in the Manga's ToP is forgettable, even though the gag is quite funny. So will the eliminations of Gamisaras and Damon and the other fighters eliminated by Gamisaras too. All these moments are falling flat in the manga, imo.

I mentioned before how I feel that these chapters have been a bit underwhelming compared to Toyotaro's great work on the Black Arc may be because he does not enjoy the idea of a Battle Royal. Geekdom101 made a great point about this, and this is noticeable in his take on the BoG Arc, where he breezed through it. The way Toyotaro has been handling this comes off as if he doesn't really care about this arc. Hopefully this isn't true, but it appears this way to me.

I like the manga and I like Toyotaro, but I'm not going to turn a blind eye to the many blatant problems in these past few chapters.

[jeffbr92]

DragonGarowLee will replace Toyotaro, thats my prediction

YoungJijii and Asshie are good options too

[TKA]

Now, we have characters we don't care about beating characters we do and there is no enjoyment factor here.

Speak for yourself.

I read Bleach. I sat and read that series and saw it get run into the ground because the writer tried to give every character their "moment" when it would be so much more expedient to skip all that. Toyotaro's manga is the Dragonball continuation I wanted, and the one I expected. Instead I got the anime. I sat through the anime and was disappointed again and again by it (and I didn't feel the need to go to every episode thread and complain about how much I hate the anime, btw) until I just quit in the tournament of power arc when I realize it would never change.

I don't understand this fandom. If fanservice nonsense is what you want, that's literally all this franchise has been for 15 years, until Battle of Gods. You have countless video games, side stories and all that nonsense which exist only to give every character feel-good moments. Hell, you even have the anime which only cares about creating moments. Why are you coming to the manga expecting the same tripe? Isn't a new, different experience that has a different narrative goal in mind than fanservice a GOOD thing?

I wouldn't go that far, but by the end of the manga, Toyotaro should be fired for the best of the franchise.

This makes no sense. The same guy wrote 13 Dragonball Z movies despite them all being trash. That same guy was around all that time.

The people who made GT are still around.

This franchise is bulletproof and no one person can hurt it. Toyotaro, even if he was even 1 one thousandth as bad as people in this thread make him out to be, isn't at all in a position where anything he does can harm the franchise lol. He isn't making executive decisions, isn't the spokesperson—just no position where anything he does matters in the grand scheme of things.

[Marlowe89]

This Arc was a fanservice arc

It's the complete opposite of a fanservice arc. It's a story with strong themes of survival, from the reason that Zeno initiates it all the way down to the rules and structure of the tournament itself. It's a desperate struggle of attrition between teams in an effort to be the last fighters standing just to save their universes from getting mercilessly erased from all of existence, not an episodic gauntlet. It's more The Hunger Games than Pokémon, which the manga understands, and that's what makes this version interesting and exciting.

Is it perfect? Absolutely not. There isn't a single chapter so far that I haven't found a couple of issues with, but it's generally managing to achieve what it set out to do. It's very far divorced from something like the Universe 6 arc, which was meant to be fanservicey and much more aligned with what the anime tried to go for with the Universe Survival arc, despite never quite meeting the expectations myself and many others had for it.

The obstacles that occur in the manga's interpretation are very short-lived and have been executed a bit poorly.

I don't agree with you at all, and I think he's executed them with a clear sense of purpose and proficiency. The obstacles actually feel like obstacles in the manga. I'm still not big on the way that the "tracking Damon through sound" thing was handled, but everything else has been great.

[jeffbr92]

This makes no sense. The same guy wrote 13 Dragonball Z movies despite them all being trash. That same guy was around all that time. The people who made GT are still around.

This franchise is bulletproof and no one person can hurt it. Toyotaro, even if he was even 1 one thousandth as bad as people in this thread make him out to be, isn't at all in a position where anything he does can harm the franchise lol. He isn't making executive decisions, isn't the spokesperson—just no position where anything he does matters in the grand scheme of things.

Sorry, but you using these as comparisons to the case is what not make the least sense. I mean really comparing plagiarism with debatable bad content from the franchise? And I say debatable because "all being trash" is pretty subjective, I may like four of the thirteen movies released and maybe some of GT.

Too bad your "this franchise is bulletproof" doesn't apply to Yamamoto case which probably gave Toei good headaches trying to fix this situation with a guy who worked in the company for more than a decade.

As for Toyotaro, if they don’t nip the evil in the bud, they may find themselves in big trouble next.

[Exline]

This Arc was a fanservice arc

It's the complete opposite of a fanservice arc. It's a story with strong themes of survival, from the reason that Zeno initiates it all the way down to the rules and structure of the tournament itself. It's a desperate struggle of attrition between teams in an effort to be the last fighters standing just to save their universes from getting mercilessly erased from all of existence, not an episodic gauntlet. It's more The Hunger Games than Pokémon, which the manga understands, and that's what makes this version interesting and exciting.

Is it perfect? Absolutely not. There isn't a single chapter so far that I haven't found a couple of issues with, but it's generally managing to achieve what it set out to do. It's very far divorced from something like the Universe 6 arc, which was meant to be fanservicey and much more aligned with what the anime tried to go for with the Universe Survival arc, despite never quite meeting the expectations myself and many others had for it.

The obstacles that occur in the manga's interpretation are very short-lived and have been executed a bit poorly.

I don't agree with you at all, and I think he's executed them with a clear sense of purpose and proficiency. I'm still not big on the way that the "tracking Damon through sound" thing was handled, but everything else has been great.

You're right about that. It's consistent and gets the job done, but that's all there really is too it. It's all a bit too straight forward. I don't understand how one can accept these just for the fact their consistent, yet ignore the lack of anything compelling or interesting occurring within these fights. The dialogue is the only thing that saves these situations due how to well the characters interacted with one another; as well as the humorous exchanges between characters, yet the paneling and the story boarding is sometimes not. It always comes off as if they could've been done better, similar to how I've constantly felt about the anime's version of the ToP.

I don't think just because one's more consistent than the other really makes it better. Toyotaro has yet to make this arc more engaging then the anime's interpretation besides the few changes he's made. He was definitely on a roll with these chapters until 34 imo.

[Simere]

He did no sell hita technique, in fact, it was ineffective as soon as hit used it. He just baited hit cause he could and because he wanted to.

What? No. That isn't what happened at all, lol. Hit used a move that slowed Jiren down, but Jiren is fast enough normally to just be moving at "average" speed while the technique is in effect. He then suckered Hit to the edge of the stage and got a surprise hit in when Hit's guard was down. This is literally the same way Toppo beat Goku even though Toppo is weaker.

Goku even comments that Jiren purposefully played possum to lure Hit into making a mistake. The only reason he had to do that was because he couldn't just overpower Hit.

Goku comments that Jiren purposefully played along so that he could eliminate Hit without spending any energy. There was nothing about how "he couldn't just overpower Hit", and overpowering Hit is exactly what he did in the end, no matter how clever you think the leadup to the overpowering was. Again, there's nothing that indicates Jiren was forced into this. What was implied is that he could have overpowered him at any time, he just didn't want to:

Jiren: Well done, noticing that I wasn't fighting seriously.

Goku: So you purposely left yourself open, letting him push to the edge? All so you could turn the tables like that? Saving your strength for now then?