"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[JazzMazz]

I'm always thinking about how much hate Heroes would get (more than it already gets) if it had come up with shitty Golden Freeza and embarassing recolors. The what-if nowadays are more than just "We just gave him a new form" so you may want to pay more attention to what's really happening around you.

You really have to stop with these persecutory delusions regarding Heroes. Nobody really hate Heroes, hell I bet that less than 50% of the fan base have played the game or are tuned into other products related to it.

If Golden Freeza was introduced on it, sure people would dislike it, but it also would be amused, like the many SSJ3 that were introduced on the beginning and crazy absorptions like Baby Janemba and Super 18 (?) that came after. It's a side product, no one has to take it really serious.

Anyway you probably has short memory cause Golden Freeza was really hated back when was leaked on RoF thread, it took a time to people get used to it and many still think that this transformation along with SSJ Blue were the worst of the whole franchise.

Honestly RoF seemed more like a quick cash grab than anything. It felt like to me that they did not expect boG to be as a big of a hit as it was and they weren’t prepared for a sequel and they just got with Toriyama and put the movie together. They didn’t plan out SSJB and probably didn’t even name it or how it worked, Freeza felt like a villian to throw in the mix when you didn’t have the other universes mapped out or a thought of a new villian etc. They weren’t sure what to do about SSG or the original Blonde forms and things like that. Having said that the movie felt like a fighting filler to buy some time for the anime. Though I enjoyed it.

You could probably even argue that from the amount of time they put into actually making the film.

Unless I'm mistaken, it had a production time of roughly 6 or so months, which is way less than the production time for a usual movie of a year.

Not to mention, apparently, the storyboard artist for the film only took one month to storyboard the entire film. To put that into perspective, the usual amount of time taken to storyboard a regular episode is roughly one month, hell, the final episode of Super took 3 months to storyboard. With that in mind, I think you could definitely say it was a very on the spot and spontaneous project, that was reflected not only in the undeveloped plot points(something Toriyama I think stated when he described the plot as an outline for a film), but also by how quickly it was rushed into production.

[Xeztin]

You really have to stop with these persecutory delusions regarding Heroes. Nobody really hate Heroes, hell I bet that less than 50% of the fan base have played the game or are tuned into other products related to it.

If Golden Freeza was introduced on it, sure people would dislike it, but it also would be amused, like the many SSJ3 that were introduced on the beginning and crazy absorptions like Baby Janemba and Super 18 (?) that came after. It's a side product, no one has to take it really serious.

Anyway you probably has short memory cause Golden Freeza was really hated back when was leaked on RoF thread, it took a time to people get used to it and many still think that this transformation along with SSJ Blue were the worst of the whole franchise.

Honestly RoF seemed more like a quick cash grab than anything. It felt like to me that they did not expect boG to be as a big of a hit as it was and they weren’t prepared for a sequel and they just got with Toriyama and put the movie together. They didn’t plan out SSJB and probably didn’t even name it or how it worked, Freeza felt like a villian to throw in the mix when you didn’t have the other universes mapped out or a thought of a new villian etc. They weren’t sure what to do about SSG or the original Blonde forms and things like that. Having said that the movie felt like a fighting filler to buy some time for the anime. Though I enjoyed it.

You could probably even argue that from the amount of time they put into actually making the film.

Unless I'm mistaken, it had a production time of roughly 6 or so months, which is way less than the production time for a usual movie of a year.

Not to mention, apparently, the storyboard artist for the film only took one month to storyboard the entire film. To put that into perspective, the usual amount of time taken to storyboard a regular episode is roughly one month, hell, the final episode of Super took 3 months to storyboard. With that in mind, I think you could definitely say it was a very on the spot and spontaneous project, that was reflected not only in the undeveloped plot points(something Toriyama I think stated when he described the plot as an outline for a film), but also by how quickly it was rushed into production.

While these things are more than likely true, one thing to keep in mind about is that BoG was too big to introduce in anime, it had to be a movie as it was the return of Dragon Ball. I felt the return of Freeza had to be on the big screen too since this is the first time we’ve seen him since Namek. However like you stated, it wasn’t planned out as good as BoG. I think after that point, it was ready for the anime as you have the return of DB established, and gave new fans a bit to catch up to the franchise. But now we have a return of Broly which again in my opinion is too big for tv so they had to stop the anime until it’s finished to keep the two from conflicting.

[alakazam^]

Honestly RoF seemed more like a quick cash grab than anything. It felt like to me that they did not expect boG to be as a big of a hit as it was and they weren’t prepared for a sequel and they just got with Toriyama and put the movie together. They didn’t plan out SSJB and probably didn’t even name it or how it worked, Freeza felt like a villian to throw in the mix when you didn’t have the other universes mapped out or a thought of a new villian etc. They weren’t sure what to do about SSG or the original Blonde forms and things like that. Having said that the movie felt like a fighting filler to buy some time for the anime. Though I enjoyed it. They picked a popular villian and used Toriyama’s name while sporting a new SSJ form. Really thats all you need.

Toriyama wrote the whole thing, he made those decisions.

[Doctor.]

Honestly RoF seemed more like a quick cash grab than anything. It felt like to me that they did not expect boG to be as a big of a hit as it was and they weren’t prepared for a sequel and they just got with Toriyama and put the movie together. They didn’t plan out SSJB and probably didn’t even name it or how it worked, Freeza felt like a villian to throw in the mix when you didn’t have the other universes mapped out or a thought of a new villian etc. They weren’t sure what to do about SSG or the original Blonde forms and things like that. Having said that the movie felt like a fighting filler to buy some time for the anime. Though I enjoyed it. They picked a popular villian and used Toriyama’s name while sporting a new SSJ form. Really thats all you need.

Toriyama wrote the whole thing, he made those decisions.

Doesn't mean he had them planned in advance, which was his point.

[prince212]

Talking about the previous posts I’m glad RoF was not included as a whole in the manga , it was perfect with the references here and there added in the moments that info regarding RoF was necessary...
about planning in this series , looks like they never planned in advance future arcs .. right now ... I wish to be wrong but I don’t think they have a plan after broly , at least a solid one .

[alakazam^]

Doesn't mean he had them planned in advance, which was his point.

We know he most likely didn't have them planned in advance nor did he need to because that was possible in the writing fase of the movie. It doesn't really hold that F was a hodgepodge because they weren't prepared or didn't have time. Toriyama wrote the story so Toei only needed to flesh it out, they had all the explaining and scale they needed and airing a weekly anime wasn't even decided, so...

[Rakurai]

Honestly RoF seemed more like a quick cash grab than anything. It felt like to me that they did not expect boG to be as a big of a hit as it was and they weren’t prepared for a sequel and they just got with Toriyama and put the movie together. They didn’t plan out SSJB and probably didn’t even name it or how it worked, Freeza felt like a villian to throw in the mix when you didn’t have the other universes mapped out or a thought of a new villian etc. They weren’t sure what to do about SSG or the original Blonde forms and things like that. Having said that the movie felt like a fighting filler to buy some time for the anime. Though I enjoyed it. They picked a popular villian and used Toriyama’s name while sporting a new SSJ form. Really thats all you need.

Before Super, I was never active on any DB online discussion and thus never bothered to check for spoilers like today.

I remember watching RoF in films and thought to myself "Is this for real?" when Frieza went gold. Then when Goku went SSB I reflexively LOL'd so loudly for a second that I turned heads, and contagiously made my friend next to me chuckle. Like how does one go from red hair to blue hair in god mode SSJ. It was like watching a parody sequel of BoG.

It was very much like Toriyama to be this lazy, but Jesus Christ that was like the parodies of parodies in terms of fanfic I've ever read. I'm not even counting the convenient deus ex machina that Whis had up his sleeve to solve the crisis.

[supersaiyanZero]

Honestly RoF seemed more like a quick cash grab than anything. It felt like to me that they did not expect boG to be as a big of a hit as it was and they weren’t prepared for a sequel and they just got with Toriyama and put the movie together. They didn’t plan out SSJB and probably didn’t even name it or how it worked, Freeza felt like a villian to throw in the mix when you didn’t have the other universes mapped out or a thought of a new villian etc. They weren’t sure what to do about SSG or the original Blonde forms and things like that. Having said that the movie felt like a fighting filler to buy some time for the anime. Though I enjoyed it. They picked a popular villian and used Toriyama’s name while sporting a new SSJ form. Really thats all you need.

Before Super, I was never active on any DB online discussion and thus never bothered to check for spoilers like today.

I remember watching RoF in films and thought to myself "Is this for real?" when Frieza went gold. Then when Goku went SSB I reflexively LOL'd so loudly for a second that I turned heads, and contagiously made my friend next to me chuckle. Like how does one go from red hair to blue hair in god mode SSJ. It was like watching a parody sequel of BoG.

It was very much like Toriyama to be this lazy, but Jesus Christ that was like the parodies of parodies in terms of fanfic I've ever read. I'm not even counting the convenient deus ex machina that Whis had up his sleeve to solve the crisis.

RoF was by far the biggest botched opportunity of the franchise. The premise of an iconic OG villain like Frieza, who probably displayed the biggest gap in ability between antagonist vs protagonist ever to a stupidly monstrous degree and arguably had the biggest impact on the main protagonists throughout the show, coming back for a carefully planned and past due revenge against the people who put an end to his empire. The premise combined with the lore between frost demons and saiyans, planet Vegeta, etc. AND that he has an extended family that is even stronger than he is and just as murderous...and we get RoF. They even took away from Frieza's character by giving the Planet Vegeta kill to Beerus, just to shoehorn him into the lore. Just..what the fuck, man?

The tone set when everybody was shitting themselves that Frieza was touching down on Earth during the Trunks saga is the tone they should have went it. Contrast it with the bullshit that was RoF and you really have to question Toriyama's ability to tell compelling stories at this age.

[reecehoward]

Talking about the previous posts I’m glad RoF was not included as a whole in the manga , it was perfect with the references here and there added in the moments that info regarding RoF was necessary...
about planning in this series , looks like they never planned in advance future arcs .. right now ... I wish to be wrong but I don’t think they have a plan after broly , at least a solid one .

I actually beg to differ. I believe that's one of the cons to the manga, at least in no small part to the exclusive severe stamina drain that Ssb suffers in the manga. Because of that alone, there's no way in hell that the events could have transpired in the manga the same way they did in the movie and anime. It was such a huge plot point in the other versions as to why they were able to hang with Frieza in the first place.

[Bergamo]

Talking about the previous posts I’m glad RoF was not included as a whole in the manga , it was perfect with the references here and there added in the moments that info regarding RoF was necessary...
about planning in this series , looks like they never planned in advance future arcs .. right now ... I wish to be wrong but I don’t think they have a plan after broly , at least a solid one .

I actually beg to differ. I believe that's one of the cons to the manga, at least in no small part to the exclusive severe stamina drain that Ssb suffers in the manga. Because of that alone, there's no way in hell that the events could have transpired in the manga the same way they did in the movie and anime. It was such a huge plot point in the other versions as to why they were able to hang with Frieza in the first place.

Any reason the Frieza saga has to be the same? Everything else is different in the manga, so why would the Frieza saga need to take place the exact same way as the movie?

[reecehoward]

Talking about the previous posts I’m glad RoF was not included as a whole in the manga , it was perfect with the references here and there added in the moments that info regarding RoF was necessary...
about planning in this series , looks like they never planned in advance future arcs .. right now ... I wish to be wrong but I don’t think they have a plan after broly , at least a solid one .

I actually beg to differ. I believe that's one of the cons to the manga, at least in no small part to the exclusive severe stamina drain that Ssb suffers in the manga. Because of that alone, there's no way in hell that the events could have transpired in the manga the same way they did in the movie and anime. It was such a huge plot point in the other versions as to why they were able to hang with Frieza in the first place.

Any reason the Frieza saga has to be the same? Everything else is different in the manga, so why would the Frieza saga need to take place the exact same way as the movie?

I never said it did. I'm merely speaking in terms of the fact that we are left to assume it did, which wouldn't make any sense considering Ssb's handicap in the manga.

[TKA]

AND that he has an extended family that is even stronger than he is and just as murderous...and we get RoF.

This is a good indicator of why this franchise needs Toriyama. That's the kind of stuff the likes of Naho Ooishi would come up with, like Chilled. When Frieza got humiliated on Namek and by Trunks, that was the end of him being a serious threat. That's the end of his contributions to the series. That's the end of the whole Saiyan culture war.

Frieza isn't meant to be cool. He's an evil wretch and he's meant to get his comeuppance via humiliations.

They even took away from Frieza's character by giving the Planet Vegeta kill to Beerus, just to shoehorn him into the lore. Just..what the fuck, man?.

This, however, I 150% agree with you on. Some retcons are unnecessary, and this is a prime example of one that wasn't needed. It makes Frieza's callous decision to kill the saiyans less about Frieza making a decision and more about Frieza taking orders. Frieza taking orders at that stage of the character's existence doesn't make sense.

[Rakurai]

RoF was by far the biggest botched opportunity of the franchise. The premise of an iconic OG villain like Frieza, who probably displayed the biggest gap in ability between antagonist vs protagonist ever to a stupidly monstrous degree and arguably had the biggest impact on the main protagonists throughout the show, coming back for a carefully planned and past due revenge against the people who put an end to his empire. The premise combined with the lore between frost demons and saiyans, planet Vegeta, etc. AND that he has an extended family that is even stronger than he is and just as murderous...and we get RoF. They even took away from Frieza's character by giving the Planet Vegeta kill to Beerus, just to shoehorn him into the lore. Just..what the fuck, man?

The tone set when everybody was shitting themselves that Frieza was touching down on Earth during the Trunks saga is the tone they should have went it. Contrast it with the bullshit that was RoF and you really have to question Toriyama's ability to tell compelling stories at this age.

Oh yeah... I also remember watching that and thinking how dumb it was to shoehorn in Beerus' relevance like that. To this day I still feel disgusted by what modern DB has become just by thinking about it.

Toyo's manga seems to be tied to the RoF film but holy hell am I glad he skipped that rat turd of a saga. No need to remind us of one of the most stupid retcons to have occurred in DBS.

[Rakurai]

I actually beg to differ. I believe that's one of the cons to the manga, at least in no small part to the exclusive severe stamina drain that Ssb suffers in the manga. Because of that alone, there's no way in hell that the events could have transpired in the manga the same way they did in the movie and anime. It was such a huge plot point in the other versions as to why they were able to hang with Frieza in the first place.

Any reason the Frieza saga has to be the same? Everything else is different in the manga, so why would the Frieza saga need to take place the exact same way as the movie?

I never said it did. I'm merely speaking in terms of the fact that we are left to assume it did, which wouldn't make any sense considering Ssb's handicap in the manga.

While I do believe that the DBS manga is tied to the film, by leaving that saga out and relying on recap boxes, it does leave the details of the events ambiguous. So while you can assume so with good reason, it isn't 100% correct unless confirmed by Toyo himself or unless he redoes the saga.

However, SSB's handicap in the manga is one of the better things to have come about, and if it's a retcon, all the better for it. The progression we saw by taking SSB and completing it allowed it to remain highly relevant well up until the last saga of Super, instead of making it extremely dull like SSJ or fooling us with fake tension given there were higher "transformations" like SSB-KK in the anime. We saw how that approach tainted the value of the transformation.

[reecehoward]

Any reason the Frieza saga has to be the same? Everything else is different in the manga, so why would the Frieza saga need to take place the exact same way as the movie?

I never said it did. I'm merely speaking in terms of the fact that we are left to assume it did, which wouldn't make any sense considering Ssb's handicap in the manga.

While I do believe that the DBS manga is tied to the film, by leaving that saga out and relying on recap boxes, it does leave the details of the events ambiguous. So while you can assume so with good reason, it isn't 100% correct unless confirmed by Toyo himself or unless he redoes the saga.

However, SSB's handicap in the manga is one of the better things to have come about, and if it's a retcon, all the better for it. The progression we saw by taking SSB and completing it allowed it to remain highly relevant well up until the last saga of Super, instead of making it extremely dull like SSJ or fooling us with fake tension given there were higher "transformations" like SSB-KK in the anime. We saw how that approach tainted the value of the transformation.

That's another thing I don't agree with, the whole Ssb having those issues in the first place. It's essentially just Super Saiyan on top of SsG or Ssj w/god ki, which really neither of Ssb's predecessors had shown any type of stamina drain to that level. Ssb just comes across as a glorified Ssj3 in the manga version in my opinion, as it's barely usable. The other elephant in the room here, is the fact that Toyo is forced into a situation in which he may have to repeat the same "progression" with Ultra Instinct because of how he handled Ssb.

[Bergamo]

I never said it did. I'm merely speaking in terms of the fact that we are left to assume it did, which wouldn't make any sense considering Ssb's handicap in the manga.

While I do believe that the DBS manga is tied to the film, by leaving that saga out and relying on recap boxes, it does leave the details of the events ambiguous. So while you can assume so with good reason, it isn't 100% correct unless confirmed by Toyo himself or unless he redoes the saga.

However, SSB's handicap in the manga is one of the better things to have come about, and if it's a retcon, all the better for it. The progression we saw by taking SSB and completing it allowed it to remain highly relevant well up until the last saga of Super, instead of making it extremely dull like SSJ or fooling us with fake tension given there were higher "transformations" like SSB-KK in the anime. We saw how that approach tainted the value of the transformation.

That's another thing I don't agree with, the whole Ssb having those issues in the first place. It's essentially just Super Saiyan on top of SsG or Ssj w/god ki, which really neither of Ssb's predecessors had shown any type of stamina drain to that level. Ssb just comes across as a glorified Ssj3 in the manga version in my opinion, as it's barely usable. The other elephant in the room here, is the fact that Toyo is forced into a situation in which he may have to repeat the same "progression" with Ultra Instinct because of how he handled Ssb.

You say this like there is some established way stacking transformations is supposed to work. The transformation stack in the anime gives blue new qualities as well. Neither SSJ nor SSG have perfect ki control, yet Goku in Blue can lower his level enough to fight Krillin. How is that any different than the opposite extreme?

[prince212]

All this conversation about R.o.F made me re-read the 3 chapters manga promotion of the movie that came before super , and I would like to know if some of you guys remember if this gag was also in the movie or the anime
[spoiler][/spoiler]
Also there’s another one about Whis autographs on goku and vegeta while training that I’m not sure if it’s a straight copy of the anime or what .... if somebody knows this ... thanks in advance
I’m same enthusiastic to watch-read new episodes-chapters, but when it comes to re-watch episodes or movies I’m so bad , re-reading is more pleasant for me .
Edit: I check checked on episode movie synopsis and the poop thing was included , I saw nothing about the autograph thing ..
This
[spoiler][/spoiler]

[Rakurai]

That's another thing I don't agree with, the whole Ssb having those issues in the first place. It's essentially just Super Saiyan on top of SsG or Ssj w/god ki, which really neither of Ssb's predecessors had shown any type of stamina drain to that level. Ssb just comes across as a glorified Ssj3 in the manga version in my opinion, as it's barely usable. The other elephant in the room here, is the fact that Toyo is forced into a situation in which he may have to repeat the same "progression" with Ultra Instinct because of how he handled Ssb.

There are various scenarios for this. The one that makes the most sense is that the SSJ transformation makes using god ki very unstable because by its own nature, it's a very unstable transformation requiring a burst of emotion. Goku himself told F. Trunks that he couldn't control it well at first. Of course, Goku mastered SSJ later on but that was with his own regular mortal ki, using god ki has been established to be a very different ball game.

What doesn't make any sense is how SSB is supposed to have perfect ki control when it's just SSJ stacked on top of SSG, neither of which apparently have that to the degree where he can stack KK on top of those.

Only an imaginary elephant by your own admission. UI =/= SSB.

[JazzMazz]

All this conversation about R.o.F made me re-read the 3 chapters manga promotion of the movie that came before super , and I would like to know if some of you guys remember if this gag was also in the movie or the anime
[spoiler][/spoiler]
Also there’s another one about Whis autographs on goku and vegeta while training that I’m not sure if it’s a straight copy of the anime or what .... if somebody knows this ... thanks in advance
I’m same enthusiastic to watch-read new episodes-chapters, but when it comes to re-watch episodes or movies I’m so bad , re-reading is more pleasant for me .
Edit: I check checked on episode movie synopsis and the poop thing was included , I saw nothing about the autograph thing ..
This
[spoiler][/spoiler]

The scene where Whis autograph's Goku and Vegeta's uniform was in both the anime and movie.

[prince212]

Talking about the previous posts I’m glad RoF was not included as a whole in the manga , it was perfect with the references here and there added in the moments that info regarding RoF was necessary...
about planning in this series , looks like they never planned in advance future arcs .. right now ... I wish to be wrong but I don’t think they have a plan after broly , at least a solid one .

I actually beg to differ. I believe that's one of the cons to the manga, at least in no small part to the exclusive severe stamina drain that Ssb suffers in the manga. Because of that alone, there's no way in hell that the events could have transpired in the manga the same way they did in the movie and anime. It was such a huge plot point in the other versions as to why they were able to hang with Frieza in the first place.

Summary episode 26 http://www.kanzenshuu.com/episode/super/eps-026/

Goku calmly notes that Freeza’s “time limit” seems to be up, and starts easily knocking Freeza around. Freeza happens to land near Sorbet, and the two appear to share a quiet conversation. Goku asks Freeza if he understands now: since Freeza came to Earth right after completing his new “evolution”, his Golden Freeza form has very poor stamina, and now he no longer has enough power left to defeat Goku. If Freeza had only taken the time to get used to his new form before coming to Earth, he probably would have won.

I can’t see that stamina mega plot hole about the drain ssb suffers in the manga . Freeza had that issue too , vegeta full stamina took freeza after previous fight with goku and on top of that goku ate a senzu bean .

The scene where Whis autograph's Goku and Vegeta's uniform was in both the anime and movie.

Thanks