Cipher wrote:
Which doesn't also mean, when people bring up ideas like, "Well, if all the opponents are throw-away, how are we to get invested in any of the action we see?" I can't see where they're coming from. Expressed with some measure, I can get why that may be a negative for some readers.
I can't, and I still think it represents a total mischaracterization of what "action" should constitute. If the characters are thrown into a massive battle royale and forced to fend for themselves, it should be immediately obvious to everyone consuming the material that the backdrop itself would serve as the primary obstacle for the majority of the tournament. That's what the manga demonstrates; not even our core characters (Piccolo, 18, Hit, etc.) are necessarily exempt from "throwaway" treatment. It's these bizarrely unpredictable circumstances that make us invested in the action because they communicate a unique threat to the story's protagonists, forcing them to adapt to an environment they don't understand or perish.
I've yet to read a single one of these criticisms focused on the "treatment" of non-characters that I didn't think was instantly addressed by the whole premise of this arc. There's no structure to anything happening and there's not supposed to be. That's the whole fucking point.
OhHiRenan wrote:
I think this last chapter was definitely rushed, but I do think it can lead to the next few chapters gaining some needed focus. Of course, it's also possible that the next chapters will speed through the ToP's content just as fast as this one so I could be wrong. I think whether or not the manga ends up falling back into promo material will really depend on how Toyo handles the rest of the tournament. I'm cautiously optimistic, though.
I agree, the first half of this chapter was about "throwing the trash out". I don't know if it's Toyotarõ's fault or the editors fault, probably a combination of both. If the tendency was too keep up then I assume the second half of the chapter would be similar to the first, instead of the focused approach we got.
I'm confident that we'll get good paced chapters until the end without shortcuts.
Regarding the promo talk, it's kinda of silly we still talk about it after this manga had it's page count increased several times and delivered exclusive takes on the story like the anime did. It's not the case with you but I usually see people bring the promo label to push the manga down as if it was a derogatory term and conclusive to it's supposedly inferior status.
Bergamo wrote:I really like Obuni's elimination. I like how he says that Gowas' philosophies have helped him make peace with his demise as he runs into a fight he can't win. It really gives the character and his universe a personality.
I liked that too. I don't know who this guy is, but his little monologue is good. Especially when you remember the type of person the manga's rendition of Gowasu is. This is the same Gowas who had so much faith in Zamas that he thought he could talk him down from the ledge, as it were.
You saw Batman v Superman? Is it the Ultimate Edition? No? Then you haven't seen Batman v Superman. Also, the Snyder Cut is the greatest, non-deconstructionist ensemble comic book film ever made.
OhHiRenan wrote:I think, even though it began as promotional material for the anime, the manga has solidified itself as a proper sequel alongside the anime at this point.
That's just headcanon, you may question its quality, but the anime was always the main product who was promoted first by the author himself.
Another example of people not knowing what the word headcanon means.
Yes I do, headcanon is made up things to fit with your imagination.
Power levels are not just big numbers:
Spoiler:
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
jeffbr92 wrote:
That's just headcanon, you may question its quality, but the anime was always the main product who was promoted first by the author himself.
Another example of people not knowing what the word headcanon means.
Yes I do, headcanon is made up things to fit with your imagination.
It only takes a minute to search something on the internet, but I guess you'd rather make factually incorrect posts.
My explanations for the events of my favorite current manga.
Doctor. wrote:Like it or not, this manga has repeatedly promoted itself as a sequel to Dragon Ball, the manga by Akira Toriyama, published from 1984 to 1995 in Weekly Shounen Jump, and we have all the right to judge it by the same standard. If it repeatedly falls short, then that's not our fault, it's nobody but Toyotaro's and Toriyama's (and Toei's).
Actually not man, even though not confirmed we could say the true sequel to the manga is the anime, the manga is just promotional material like Heroes.
Hasn't it already been said a multiple times that the manga is a canonical sequel to the original manga? Someone posted images where it was said just a few pages ago.
Aizamasu wrote:Someone posted images where it was said just a few pages ago.
It was advertising and certainly was directed to the anime as the event was to promote the upcoming movie.
Power levels are not just big numbers:
Spoiler:
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
Aizamasu wrote:Someone posted images where it was said just a few pages ago.
It was advertising and certainly was directed to the anime as the event was to promote the upcoming movie.
It said the canonical sequel to the original manga was drawn by Toyotaro, and then it proceeded to explain the plot of DBS using the manga as reference.
My explanations for the events of my favorite current manga.
Bergamo wrote:It said the canonical sequel to the original manga was drawn by Toyotaro, and then it proceeded to explain the plot of DBS using the manga as reference.
The subject says Super as a whole is the canonical sequel and only addresses that Toyotaro draws the manga.
Power levels are not just big numbers:
Spoiler:
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
Bergamo wrote:It said the canonical sequel to the original manga was drawn by Toyotaro, and then it proceeded to explain the plot of DBS using the manga as reference.
The subject says Super as a whole is the canonical sequel and only addresses that Toyotaro draws the manga.
A comment which is completely worthless by the way because I guarantee no one of the higher-ups has used the word "canonical". If there was a Japanese equivalent to that text whomever translated that probably translated it from a word like "official", making it inaccurate and as useless as people asking Chris Sabat what is canonical. The way when Toei or Toriyama actually and truly say something along the line will probably never happen. It would be good to know who actually wrote that and if it was originally in Japanese who wrote the original.
"Citation needed."
"too lazy
feel free to take it with grain of salt or discredit me altogether, I'm not losing any sleep"
Bergamo wrote:It said the canonical sequel to the original manga was drawn by Toyotaro, and then it proceeded to explain the plot of DBS using the manga as reference.
The subject says Super as a whole is the canonical sequel and only addresses that Toyotaro draws the manga.
A comment which is completely worthless by the way because I guarantee no one of the higher-ups has used the word "canonical". If there was a Japanese equivalent to that text whomever translated that probably translated it from a word like "official", making it inaccurate and as useless as people asking Chris Sabat what is canonical. The way when Toei or Toriyama actually and truly say something along the line will probably never happen. It would be good to know who actually wrote that and if it was originally in Japanese who wrote the original.
It's supplied by Dragon Tour, which is organized by Toei and Shueisha. The only reason people bring it up is so that we can finally shut down all the people who feel the need to constantly post things like, "Manga is non canon, OFFICIAL, not main product, prove me wrong."
My explanations for the events of my favorite current manga.
Cetra wrote:A comment which is completely worthless by the way because I guarantee no one of the higher-ups has used the word "canonical". If there was a Japanese equivalent to that text whomever translated that probably translated it from a word like "official", making it inaccurate and as useless as people asking Chris Sabat what is canonical. The way when Toei or Toriyama actually and truly say something along the line will probably never happen. It would be good to know who actually wrote that and if it was originally in Japanese who wrote the original.
I know, even if its from Shueisha, only Toei or Toriyama can state a canon for DB. Also if that was for real it would already been addressed in the main site, but I guess this is the first step for one day they might declare what counts for the main continuity.
Bergamo wrote:It's supplied by Dragon Tour, which is organized by Toei and Shueisha. The only reason people bring it up is so that we can finally shut down all the people who feel the need to constantly post things like, "Manga is non canon, OFFICIAL, not main product, prove me wrong."
But it is man, don't let your fanboyism blind your eyes. The anime was promoted first, it's the main product and it's not based on a promotional manga.
Power levels are not just big numbers:
Spoiler:
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
Cetra wrote:A comment which is completely worthless by the way because I guarantee no one of the higher-ups has used the word "canonical". If there was a Japanese equivalent to that text whomever translated that probably translated it from a word like "official", making it inaccurate and as useless as people asking Chris Sabat what is canonical. The way when Toei or Toriyama actually and truly say something along the line will probably never happen. It would be good to know who actually wrote that and if it was originally in Japanese who wrote the original.
I know, even if its from Shueisha, only Toei or Toriyama can state a canon for DB. Also if that was for real it would already been addressed in the main site, but I guess this is the first step for one day they might declare what counts for the main continuity.
Bergamo wrote:It's supplied by Dragon Tour, which is organized by Toei and Shueisha. The only reason people bring it up is so that we can finally shut down all the people who feel the need to constantly post things like, "Manga is non canon, OFFICIAL, not main product, prove me wrong."
But it is man, don't let your fanboyism blind your eyes. The anime was promoted first, it's the main product and it's not based on a promotional manga.
I don't care about which one is the main product. The sequel to the original manga is the DBS manga and the sequel to DBKAI is the DBS anime. This is not a complex issue.
My explanations for the events of my favorite current manga.
jeffbr92 wrote:But it is man, don't let your fanboyism blind your eyes. The anime was promoted first, it's the main product and it's not based on a promotional manga.
You shouldn't let favoritism blind your eyes either. Has Toriyama or Toei or anyone else actually said that the anime is canon but the manga isn't?
And why do so many anime fans care so much about whether or not the manga is canon? Most manga fans seem to accept that both the anime and the manga are canon and you get to choose which to follow. Why is it so important that the version that you prefer is the only correct one?
Aizamasu wrote:You shouldn't let favoritism blind your eyes either. Has Toriyama or Toei or anyone else actually said that the anime is canon but the manga isn't?
You're right about that, but that serves for the series as a whole: we don't know what is canon, so we make assumptions and the most correct is that the anime is the true sequel.
Bergamo wrote:I don't care about which one is the main product. The sequel to the original manga is the DBS manga and the sequel to DBKAI is the DBS anime. This is not a complex issue.
I would like to agree with you, but sadly this wasn't confirmed on anywhere.
Power levels are not just big numbers:
Spoiler:
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
Aizamasu wrote:You shouldn't let favoritism blind your eyes either. Has Toriyama or Toei or anyone else actually said that the anime is canon but the manga isn't?
You're right about that, but that serves for the series as a whole: we don't know what is canon, so we make assumptions and the most correct is that the anime is the true sequel.
Bergamo wrote:I don't care about which one is the main product. The sequel to the original manga is the DBS manga and the sequel to DBKAI is the DBS anime. This is not a complex issue.
I would like to agree with you, but sadly this wasn't confirmed on anywhere.
Any manga that says, "story by Toriyama," has been accepted as part of canon. This is the same reason we accept Jaco the galactic patrolman/Dragon Ball minus as canon. Why is the DBS manga different? Also, try to explain why Vegeta has SSG in the movie. It's almost as if the movie is partially based off what the manga has been doing.
My explanations for the events of my favorite current manga.
Bergamo wrote:Any manga that says, "story by Toriyama," has been accepted as part of canon. This is the same reason we accept Jaco the galactic patrolman/Dragon Ball minus as canon. Why is the DBS manga different? Also, try to explain why Vegeta has SSG in the movie. It's almost as if the movie is partially based off what the manga has been doing.
Accepted =/= Officialy stated
What to explain? Nothing contraditcs Vegeta turning into SSJG just because wasn't show in the anime.
Power levels are not just big numbers:
Spoiler:
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
Bergamo wrote:Any manga that says, "story by Toriyama," has been accepted as part of canon. This is the same reason we accept Jaco the galactic patrolman/Dragon Ball minus as canon. Why is the DBS manga different? Also, try to explain why Vegeta has SSG in the movie. It's almost as if the movie is partially based off what the manga has been doing.
Accepted =/= Officialy stated
What to explain? Nothing contraditcs Vegeta turning into SSJG just because wasn't show in the anime.
There have been no official statements made about canon. Stop being so condescending and accept that you can't say anything more valid than anyone else on the matter. I personally choose not to be a jerk and try to delegitimize a series that other people like.
My explanations for the events of my favorite current manga.
Bergamo wrote:There have been no official statements made about canon. Stop being so condescending and accept that you can't say anything more valid than anyone else on the matter. I personally choose not to be a jerk and try to delegitimize a series that other people like.
But you can still appreciate the manga just fine or is your enjoyment is based on if its canon or not?
Bergamo wrote:I'll enjoy it either way, but, "Manga sucks, good thing it's non-canon," has no substance and has no purpose other than to aggravate. You haven't provided anything convincing that suggests that the DBS manga is non-canon.
I've provided, but you chose to ignore it.
Last edited by jeffbr92 on Sun Jul 22, 2018 6:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Power levels are not just big numbers:
Spoiler:
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
Bergamo wrote:There have been no official statements made about canon. Stop being so condescending and accept that you can't say anything more valid than anyone else on the matter. I personally choose not to be a jerk and try to delegitimize a series that other people like.
But you can still appreciate the manga just fine or is your enjoyment is based on if its canon or not?
I'll enjoy it either way, but, "Manga sucks, good thing it's non-canon," has no substance and has no purpose other than to aggravate. You haven't provided anything convincing that suggests that the DBS manga is non-canon.
My explanations for the events of my favorite current manga.
