"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[PsionicWarrior]

Dialogues in 135 are so bad. Also things are going so fast, maybe too fast?

Can you elaborate on why you thought it was bad?

I thought the dialogue in this chapter was the most enjoyable part of it. From Dyspo getting mad at Goku for holding back, for Hit conversing with Goku about how he's changed him, and with the final bit with Jiren finally acknowledging Goku. Do you prefer the typical "IMPOSSIBLE (BAKANA!!), I am the strongest" that the anime overuses in each fight?

I believe dialogue is one of Toyotaro's strong suits as a writer. He's able to make these characters more interesting and different in terms of personality as opposed to the anime making every single enemy in the tournament some cocky warriors.

Well yes there is a few good lines here and there but for the most part I found it largely bland. I guess what ticked me the most is the 'transformation' part with Goku, that is not the only way to define him. The lack of tension with Jiren was sad, the 'unknown warrior => no I'm son goku' felt cheap to me. The manga is kinda my last hope for this arc and I've been used to better writing from Toto (with the manga being largely superior to the anime imo at the exception of a few rare things).

[TKA]

Do rage boosts unlock a hidden power within the user or something?

"Rage boost" is a fan-term. It doesn't actually exist in the original manga. The only person to benefit from getting angry was Gohan, and it was unique to him. Every other character that got very angry would just do something stupid and then get promptly beaten. The only other times where being angry raises power was in the case of Super Saiyan, which explicitly needs you to get angry in order to attain the form. Gohan was the only one to achieve Super Saiyan 2 through also getting angry (with the guidebooks attributing Goku and Vegeta attaining it through training instead)

The dragonball parodies over the years that have people screaming and getting stronger might have popularized the notion that "rage boosts" happened a lot in dragonball. That's quite wrong, you see. It's a shame Toei took the easy route and played into people's misconceptions with their anime. Toyotaro has avoided it thus far.

[LightBing]

"Rage boost" is a fan-term. It doesn't actually exist in the original manga. The only person to benefit from getting angry was Gohan, and it was unique to him. Every other character that got very angry would just do something stupid and then get promptly beaten. The only other times where being angry raises power was in the case of Super Saiyan, which explicitly needs you to get angry in order to attain the form. Gohan was the only one to achieve Super Saiyan 2 through also getting angry (with the guidebooks attributing Goku and Vegeta attaining it through training instead)

The dragonball parodies over the years that have people screaming and getting stronger might have popularized the notion that "rage boosts" happened a lot in dragonball. That's quite wrong, you see. It's a shame Toei took the easy route and played into people's misconceptions with their anime. Toyotaro has avoided it thus far.

There's another "rage boost" Vegeta against Beerus. Which also isn't a classic example since Vegeta had various rage moments and never got any benefit.
I always saw this one as closing Vegeta's redemption arc; he actually got stronger fighting for those he loved and more specifically stronger than Goku. A complete contrast to the Boo Arc where he thought embracing his evil would make him stronger yet he was still behind Goku.

This specific case is probably an exception and Vegeta won't be getting rage boosts anymore, it was simply a writing tool.

All this to agree, "Rage boost" isn't a thing in Dragon Ball.

[batistabus]

This is the part of DB I don't quite understand. How do rage boosts work? How does anger itself increase your power level? I always thought Anger was an emotion that would block your Ki.]

Do rage boosts unlock a hidden power within the user or something?

As far as I've always understood it (according to the original manga, unless I'm missing something), rage boosts are a trait of Saiyans that are even more intense in half-Saiyan hybrids (or at the very least, Gohan).

In the original manga, only Gohan (and Goku the one time when he unlocked Super Saiyan) benefited from rage boosts, and it was explained as his hidden power that he couldn't properly control unless triggered by instinct. Nobody else gained anything from them. They'd get mad, but still promptly lose and gain no noticeable change
The anime and later DBS took that and gave it to everyone as the usual high adrenaline trope in most fiction

From Toriyama, we have Goku (Super Saiyan), Vegeta (Beerus), Gohan (constantly), and Cabba (Super Saiyan) benefiting from increased power when angry, so I'd say that's a decent sample size. Although, separating "a pure heart awakened by anger" for Super Saiyan from general rage-induced power is kind of a blurry line. I also remember something about half-Saiyans having some sort of edge, but I don't remember enough to have a place to search from.

[Bergamo]

Vegeta got a rage boost against God Zamas and Trunks got a rage boost against Dabura in the flashback chapter. Dabura even says that it's possible saiyans get stronger when they're enraged.

[OLKv3]

As far as I've always understood it (according to the original manga, unless I'm missing something), rage boosts are a trait of Saiyans that are even more intense in half-Saiyan hybrids (or at the very least, Gohan).

In the original manga, only Gohan (and Goku the one time when he unlocked Super Saiyan) benefited from rage boosts, and it was explained as his hidden power that he couldn't properly control unless triggered by instinct. Nobody else gained anything from them. They'd get mad, but still promptly lose and gain no noticeable change
The anime and later DBS took that and gave it to everyone as the usual high adrenaline trope in most fiction

From Toriyama, we have Goku (Super Saiyan), Vegeta (Beerus), Gohan (constantly), and Cabba (Super Saiyan) benefiting from increased power when angry, so I'd say that's a decent sample size. Although, separating "a pure heart awakened by anger" for Super Saiyan from general rage-induced power is kind of a blurry line. I also remember something about half-Saiyans having some sort of edge, but I don't remember enough to have a place to search from.

I count BoG as DBS. That's what I'm saying though, the whole "rage boosts apply for all Saiyans" thing didn't exist in the original manga, it only applied for Gohan who was a half breed that couldn't control his power, unless you count the original Super Saiyan, which seemed to be a special separate case of just unlocking the form.
With BoG and everything after, it turned into a boost that works for all Saiyans
Half breeds were stated to be very wrong by Vegeta in his conversation with Nappa.

[batistabus]

In the original manga, only Gohan (and Goku the one time when he unlocked Super Saiyan) benefited from rage boosts, and it was explained as his hidden power that he couldn't properly control unless triggered by instinct. Nobody else gained anything from them. They'd get mad, but still promptly lose and gain no noticeable change
The anime and later DBS took that and gave it to everyone as the usual high adrenaline trope in most fiction

From Toriyama, we have Goku (Super Saiyan), Vegeta (Beerus), Gohan (constantly), and Cabba (Super Saiyan) benefiting from increased power when angry, so I'd say that's a decent sample size. Although, separating "a pure heart awakened by anger" for Super Saiyan from general rage-induced power is kind of a blurry line. I also remember something about half-Saiyans having some sort of edge, but I don't remember enough to have a place to search from.

I count BoG as DBS. That's what I'm saying though, the whole "rage boosts apply for all Saiyans" thing didn't exist in the original manga, it only applied for Gohan who was a half breed that couldn't control his power, unless you count the original Super Saiyan, which seemed to be a special separate case of just unlocking the form.
With BoG and everything after, it turned into a boost that works for all Saiyans
Half breeds were stated to be very wrong by Vegeta in his conversation with Nappa.

I accept what you're saying, but I feel like the concept of "rage boosts" was understood before Super ever came out. Perhaps it's just a case of Toriyama tying new pieces of information effectively into what already exists.

[Saiga]

Super Saiyan is clearly a different kettle of fish - it's not powering up through rage boosts, it's gaining access to Super Saiyan that provides the power. It doesn't show any evidence of gaining power through rage without a new transformation.

The original manga only described Gohan as being able to do that, and the characters certainly talk like it is unique to him.

I definitely think this is a case of many viewers misunderstanding that detail, and that misunderstanding being picked up by later writers. As TKA said, it's very common for parodies to portray the characters as constantly screaming, getting angry and powering up with seemingly no limit, and I've seen people get confused and wonder why characters don't just get angry and power up to win when they're losing a fight.

Also, didn't Watanabe originally write the Vegeta scene in BOG?

Edit: the concept of rage boosts was certainly understood, because other anime use it, but I don't think the concept was intended to be part of DB.

[batistabus]

I definitely think this is a case of many viewers misunderstanding that detail, and that misunderstanding being picked up by later writers..

Perhaps.

I don't know if I really see the rage utilized to become a Super Saiyan and generic rage boosts to be totally separate, though. We know of characters becoming Super Saiyan without the need for intense rage: Goten & Trunks during the Boo arc, Vegeta & Goku's Super Saiyan 2, and Goku & Gotenks' Super Saiyan 3. It could be that rage helps facilitate Super Saiyan because it does push your power over the edge of one's body's normal limits. Even if characters do talk about rage as being the key to unlock Super Saiyan, in their world, there's not exactly a book written on this stuff. They're figuring things out as they go, and anger is what has been most effective in their experience.

I don't find the "why don't they just get angry and win" argument to be totally convincing, either. Anybody can get pissed off, but pure rage is rare to come by. Goku and Gohan (more so) are extremely empathetic when compared to other Saiyans, so they feel deep emotion when others are hurt. If empathy really is part of the equation, I think that makes Vegeta's "My Bulma" moment even more powerful as one the only event in his life to bring that sort of power out of him...especially for a guy who's always in a bad mood.

[TKA]

I don't find the "why don't they just get angry and win" argument to be totally convincing, either. Anybody can get pissed off, but pure rage is rare to come by.

If Vegeta watching his son die in front of him didn't push him to become strong enough to beat Cell by getting really mad, then the whole concept of a "rage boost for saiyans" has to be thrown out the window.

In the original manga, getting stronger was done by character development through training, not by getting angry and screaming until you got stronger. The former requires time and character growth, while the latter is cheap, flashy and lazy.

[Bergamo]

I don't find the "why don't they just get angry and win" argument to be totally convincing, either. Anybody can get pissed off, but pure rage is rare to come by.

If Vegeta watching his son die in front of him didn't push him to become strong enough to beat Cell by getting really mad, then the whole concept of a "rage boost for saiyans" has to be thrown out the window.

In the original manga, getting stronger was done by character development through training, not by getting angry and screaming until you got stronger. The former requires time and character growth, while the latter is cheap, flashy and lazy.

To be fair to Super, in the original manga Gohan became the strongest unfused character using 100% plot induced and undeserved power. Characters get stronger when it's needed for the plot.

[batistabus]

I don't find the "why don't they just get angry and win" argument to be totally convincing, either. Anybody can get pissed off, but pure rage is rare to come by.

If Vegeta watching his son die in front of him didn't push him to become strong enough to beat Cell by getting really mad, then the whole concept of a "rage boost for saiyans" has to be thrown out the window.

In the original manga, getting stronger was done by character development through training, not by getting angry and screaming until you got stronger. The former requires time and character growth, while the latter is cheap, flashy and lazy.

Why does he need to be strong enough to beat Cell? He didn't beat Beerus. Vegeta certainly learned to care for Trunks, but he only knew him for about a year or so, and he hadn't softened up as much as he had by Battle of Gods. He did attack Cell immediately afterwards, but any potential boost might not have been enough to make a difference. (Let me clarify: I don't think the intention was for Vegeta to get a rage boost for this scene, but I'm just saying I don't think it automatically invalidates the idea either.)

I'm not saying I'm a huge fan of the concept, but I don't think it inherently goes against what we've been shown before. I don't think it's any "cheaper" than the zenkai boost, at least. Even if it hasn't been a stated quality of Saiyans from the start, it doesn't feel out of place to me. There are times in Super where I think it's been used both well (my Bulma) and extremely poorly (Super Saiyan Rage Trunks). I don't have problem with Vegeta getting a few hits off of 20% (or whatever) Beerus to show how much he's come to care about his wife, but I do have a problem with something that just exists to sell another Trunks toy.

[alakazam^]

Can you elaborate on why you thought it was bad?

I thought the dialogue in this chapter was the most enjoyable part of it. From Dyspo getting mad at Goku for holding back, for Hit conversing with Goku about how he's changed him, and with the final bit with Jiren finally acknowledging Goku. Do you prefer the typical "IMPOSSIBLE (BAKANA!!), I am the strongest" that the anime overuses in each fight?

I believe dialogue is one of Toyotaro's strong suits as a writer. He's able to make these characters more interesting and different in terms of personality as opposed to the anime making every single enemy in the tournament some cocky warriors.

Can you make a point for the manga without attacking the anime? That's a problem some of you have and that only shows the manga isn't strong enough to stand on its own two legs which, funnily enough, goes against the point you try to convey.

[Marlowe89]

Can you make a point for the manga without attacking the anime? That's a problem some of you have and that only shows the manga isn't strong enough to stand on its own two legs which, funnily enough, goes against the point you try to convey.

Not really. You're being presumptuous. If there's an adaptational aspect of the series that warrants a comparison, a comparison is going to be made. If the anime does something wrong that the manga does right, I'll certainly be there to point that out every single time.

There have also been plenty of instances where I preferred the manga over the anime or the anime over the manga in regards to something that I thought wasn't ideal in both versions, and I've always pointed that out as well, so your false equivalence definitely isn't doing your point any favors here.

[jeffbr92]

Can you make a point for the manga without attacking the anime? That's a problem some of you have and that only shows the manga isn't strong enough to stand on its own two legs which, funnily enough, goes against the point you try to convey.

Yeah, that's something really annoying in this thread. They can't form an opinion without attacking the other media.

[TKA]

To be fair to Super, in the original manga Gohan became the strongest unfused character using 100% plot induced and undeserved power. Characters get stronger when it's needed for the plot.

Well, give me the benefit of the doubt and try to see where I'm coming from with this.

In the context of the original manga, Gohan's unlock was bringing the character full circle. We'd been with Gohan and seen him develop ever since Raditz showed up. Him sitting there and watching as his friends died, knowing that he's the only hope they have left—that isn't "undeserved". This powerup didn't come out of nowhere either since we knew Gohan had a ton of potential and was actually *weaker* during the Buu arc than he was against Cell. Toriyama was pretty smart by having Gohan power up by unlocking that potential to its fullest extent.

It also really helps that there was actual build-up to Gohan's power by virtue of it taking quite a few chapters to actually manifest. Imagine if Old Kai just popped out of the sword, unlocked Gohan's power and then sent him to fight Buu all in the span of 1 or 2 chapters. That's what Super does. Well, even that's giving Super too much credit. A more apt comparison is Gohan just gets really mad and screams really loudly when he's fighting Fat Buu and unlocks a new form and just demolishes Fat Buu.

No build up, no character growth, no consequences—no tension.

Why does he need to be strong enough to beat Cell? He didn't beat Beerus. Vegeta certainly learned to care for Trunks, but he only knew him for about a year or so, and he hadn't softened up as much as he had by Battle of Gods. He did attack Cell immediately afterwards, but any potential boost might not have been enough to make a difference

Don't take that example as the crux of my argument. I was giving an example of where the "rage boosts apply to all saiyans" logic fails. Vegeta is even called a fool by Krillin for doing what he did. None of the characters, Cell included, noted any difference in Vegeta's power level—and that's why they knew it was stupid.

Also, I find it a bit disingenuous to downplay what that scene meant for Vegeta's character. That was the first instance of Vegeta fighting for someone else, and was clearly an impactful moment that would define where his character would go in the next arc. He attacked Cell because he just watched his son get killed before him.

Anyway, a few more examples are:

1. Vegeta gets really mad against Frieza to the point he starts crying. No rage boosts.
2. Vegeta gets mad and desperate fighting Zarbon and Recoom. No rage boosts.
3. Goku gets really mad at Super Buu. No rage boosts.
4. Vegeta gets really mad at Pure Buu. No rage boosts.

This just isn't a thing in the original manga. This is a new thing added to the franchise for the sake of "epic" moments.

I'm not saying I'm a huge fan of the concept, but I don't think it inherently goes against what we've been shown before. I don't think it's any "cheaper" than the zenkai boost, at least

I fully think it inherently goes against everything dragonball is built on. Dragonball is a martial arts story where you work hard, train and get stronger. Effort breeds power. These new boosts that come from nowhere are cheap because there is no strife for them, or build up for them. It goes against the fundamental themes of the story if you don't have to work for your power; you just have to scream really loudly.

Zenkai boosts, in that respect, are inherently better. They're not boosts that come out of nowhere. Indeed, during the part of the story where they actually mattered, characters found multiple ways of abusing the mechanic that also showed the stark differences between the characters.

Goku's zenkais came because he trained his ass off to the point where he's destroyed his body. Then he eats a bean and does it all again. That kind of single-minded commitment to bettering himself is what Goku is all about.

Gohan's one zenkai came after he fought with Nappa and Vegeta, and those only happened because Gohan fought to protect his friends and his father. That's Gohan. He's the one who's actually a good person who cares about others.

Vegeta's zenkais came after battles where he got destroyed. That's Vegeta. You knock him down because of his arrogance (every fight he got beat in came because he underestimate his opponent), but he comes back. Then, he forces a zenkai by having Krillin shoot him (which fucks him over because Dende then refuses to heal him because he's such a vile person)... and he ultimately still loses.

Zenkais told a story. Zenkais, also, aren't instant power ups. There's build up to them.

And to address the Super Saiyan transformation—it was a form being built up to literally for the entirety of the Namek arc. It was constantly brought up. Then we were told Goku IS the Super Saiyan, though we didn't know exactly what that meant. "Rage" being what awakened it was arbitrary at that point. Goku could've snorted cocaine and trigger the transformation and it would literally not make a difference. It was rage because that's more dramatic than Goku rolling up a hundred dollar bill and going to town on a line after he saw his best friend died.

The problem with all these "rage boosts" is they take away tension. I always use Gurren Lagann as my example for this kind of thing. In that show, there are no training arcs, or machines being upgraded between battles. No, the characters just have to scream really loudly and believe in themselves. That's all. That made the show tensionless because, ultimately, a character can just scream really loudly and get out of any situation, no matter how dire. That's what Dragonball is when anyone can just get really mad and suddenly unlock power they never had before.

It's a cheap plot device that actively detracts from the story.

Can you make a point for the manga without attacking the anime? That's a problem some of you have and that only shows the manga isn't strong enough to stand on its own two legs which, funnily enough, goes against the point you try to convey.

Yeah, that's something really annoying in this thread. They can't form an opinion without attacking the other media.

This is nonsense. Both works come from the same notes. How on Earth could you possibly talk about one without referencing the other? The only way to do so is to not indulge in one of them.

[Saiga]

I think the biggest difference with zenkai is that they're a one way power-up. They don't allow characters to fluctuate wildly as a substitute for consistent writing - once the character gets a zenkai, that's their power now and the story sticks with it.

With a rage boost, it can happen with no warning, build up or long term consequences.

With Gohan, these boosts were part of his character, and a reminder of his hidden potential. When he received a rage boost, it didn't allow him to defeat anyone but served as build up for the eventual realization of his potential.

Rage boosts in other characters just feel like a crutch, to have characters turn things around and have dramatic moments without needing to commit to meaningful change.

[Exline]

Can you elaborate on why you thought it was bad?

I thought the dialogue in this chapter was the most enjoyable part of it. From Dyspo getting mad at Goku for holding back, for Hit conversing with Goku about how he's changed him, and with the final bit with Jiren finally acknowledging Goku. Do you prefer the typical "IMPOSSIBLE (BAKANA!!), I am the strongest" that the anime overuses in each fight?

I believe dialogue is one of Toyotaro's strong suits as a writer. He's able to make these characters more interesting and different in terms of personality as opposed to the anime making every single enemy in the tournament some cocky warriors.

Can you make a point for the manga without attacking the anime? That's a problem some of you have and that only shows the manga isn't strong enough to stand on its own two legs which, funnily enough, goes against the point you try to convey.

Another argument started because of one of my posts that was meant to be harmless and slightly inoffensive...

I didn't even attack the anime. I used an example that the anime tends to use in nearly every fight. I didn't think words" typical" and "overuses" were terms used to insult the anime. Unless you're referring to my last statement about the anime making them into cocky warriors. You have to admit the anime didn't do much in terms of character for the lesser fighters and reused to the same trope over and over again.

I think if you can't handle what we point out is wrong with the anime version, you probably shouldn't be on a discussion board where discussing both mediums is the norm.

Can you make a point for the manga without attacking the anime? That's a problem some of you have and that only shows the manga isn't strong enough to stand on its own two legs which, funnily enough, goes against the point you try to convey.

Yeah, that's something really annoying in this thread. They can't form an opinion without attacking the other media.

When comparing the manga to anime, most of you sort of love to shit on the manga with the most peculiar of reasons sometimes and we try to reason with you. But when we compare the anime to the manga by pointing out its flaws, it's a problem that we need to fix? That smells like hypocrisy.






Also how come Trunks doesn't get rage boosts or have as much hidden potential as Gohan? And the same goes for Goten as well. What really makes Gohan so special..?

[PsionicWarrior]

I didn't even attack the anime. I used an example that the anime tends to use in nearly every fight.

To be fair you kinda meme'd it but I only replied to your initial point so all is alright for me cheers lol

[Dbzk1999]

In the context of the original manga, Gohan's unlock was bringing the character full circle. We'd been with Gohan and seen him develop ever since Raditz showed up. Him sitting there and watching as his friends died, knowing that he's the only hope they have left—that isn't "undeserved". This powerup didn't come out of nowhere either since we knew Gohan had a ton of potential and was actually *weaker* during the Buu arc than he was against Cell. Toriyama was pretty smart by having Gohan power up by unlocking that potential to its fullest extent

This is the only part I want to address cause I find it kinda hilarious. In the context of the original manga, both guru and SSJ2 were initially “gohan’s Unlock”. I don’t see how Toriyama was “pretty smart” for that when he had Gohan “unlocking his potential” literally twice prior to the buu arc. If that in particular was “bringing the character full circle” then his character already came full circle back in the namek arc. I’d say that getting what is essentially a potential unlock in three consecutive arcs starts going into the “undeserved” territory