"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[BlueBasilisk]

Ssj1 was the same thing, Goku told Future Trunks that he had to train for awhile to be able to transform at will.

I can't remember if the scene was just in the anime or not, but wasn't Goku able to power down and then transform again when he thought Frieza was finished?

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

That's within the context of the Buu arc where Goku just reached it not too long before. Saying that it can only be used in the other world implies it's some special form when according to Toriyama, it's not. It's just a powered up version of Ssj1 which means that if a Saiyan has enough power, they can use it. Goku (and Vegeta) at this point in the story have more than enough power to use it whenever they want.

Ssj1 was the same thing, Goku told Future Trunks that he had to train for awhile to be able to transform at will.

I agree that the form isn't some magical transformation, but the form is still flawed. It drains an excessive amount of Chi. The reason why it worked better in Otherworld was because he didn't have the drawbacks (limited stamina) of a living body.

The main difference is Super Saiyan was still fairly new to Goku. Super Saiyan 3 wasn't. He said using the form while in Otherworld gave him no issues. The only part that was new to him was using it in the living world. He also went from doing a long transformation to doing it instantly.

Goku seemed to have no issue transforming back to Super Saiyan when Freeza tried to blindside him, though it looked like rage played a part in that.

I don't think it's a power thing. Gotenks' time was instantly cut down to 5 mins just by changing into Super Saiyan 3. Fusion gets a set time, so I don't think that's something Gotenks could've improved. The form itself is just flawed. One could say Goku could've probably mastered it, but one could also say that the form isn't feasible enough to master because of the drawbacks.

[sintzu]

Goku seemed to have no issue transforming back to Super Saiyan when Freeza tried to blindside him, though it looked like rage played a part in that.

Wasn't Goku able to power down and then transform again when he thought Frieza was finished?

If I remember correctly, he said he could only transform when he was really angry which goes with him being able to power up again once Freeza tried to kill him after he gave him the chance to leave.

In terms of Ssj3, now that we know it's just a powered up Ssj1, if Goku's power was 5 in the Buu arc and he had trouble with it, won't his power being 20 now thanks to all the training he did with Whis enable him to freely use it ? Another thing, if it was such a flawed form, wouldn't he have told Culiflaw not to use it ?

[Totamo]

Goku said Super Saiyan 3 isn't sustainable outside of Otherworld. That shows that the form itself is just bad.

That's within the context of the Buu arc where Goku just reached it not too long before. Saying that it can only be used in the other world implies it's some special form when according to Toriyama, it's not. It's just a powered up version of Ssj1 which means that if a Saiyan has enough power, they can use it. Goku (and Vegeta) at this point in the story have more than enough power to use it whenever they want.

Ssj1 was the same thing, Goku told Future Trunks that he had to train for awhile to be able to transform at will.

The fact that Goku was able to use the form at will in the Buu saga kinda of says Goku had the form for a while.

[sintzu]

The fact that Goku was able to use the form at will in the Buu saga kinda of says Goku had the form for a while.

It clearly wasn't long enough to control it. When he first transformed he told Babidi he wasn't used to it yet (correct me if it's a "dub thing").

[BlueBasilisk]

The fact that Goku was able to use the form at will in the Buu saga kinda of says Goku had the form for a while.

But the first time he transforms, he says it took him a while because he wasn't used to it yet. Sometimes Goku acts like he's had the form for a while but others he acts like it's still new.

In terms of Ssj3, now that we know it's just a powered up Ssj1, if Goku's power was 5 in the Buu arc and he had trouble with it, won't his power being 20 now thanks to all the training he did with Whis enable him to freely use it ? Another thing, if it was such a flawed form, wouldn't he have told Culiflaw not to use it ?

His base power not being high enough to maintain the form makes the most sense to me. I mean, he almost killed himself using Kaioken x4 against Vegeta, but then he's able to push himself to x20 with minimal damage just by raising his power level.

[sintzu]

The fact that Goku was able to use the form at will in the Buu saga kinda of says Goku had the form for a while.

But the first time he transforms, he says it took him a while because he wasn't used to it yet. Sometimes Goku acts like he's had the form for a while but others he acts like it's still new.

In terms of Ssj3, now that we know it's just a powered up Ssj1, if Goku's power was 5 in the Buu arc and he had trouble with it, won't his power being 20 now thanks to all the training he did with Whis enable him to freely use it ? Another thing, if it was such a flawed form, wouldn't he have told Culiflaw not to use it ?

His base power not being high enough to maintain the form makes the most sense to me. I mean, he almost killed himself using Kaioken x4 against Vegeta, but then he's able to push himself to x20 with minimal damage just by raising his power level.

I forgot about that, kaioken is a great example of what I'm trying to say.

Only 500 posts left to reach 10000

[Miracles]

Toyotaro adds his own ideas to the story too.

But even those ideas have to be checked and confirmed by Toriyama.

Like Goku and Vegeta absorbing the power of the god even in base form, so Vegeta can defeat Gotenks SS3 without any effort. I'm glad Toyotaro got rid of that in his manga.

Obviously those arcs are unnecessary for the main story lines.
The manga is only monthly, so it doesn't have time for the "slice of life" in between comedy arcs.

I don't know why people keep saying manga Hit and Black were weaker to their anime part.
In the manga, Goku and Vegeta are just more competent to their anime versions.
Due to that, it looks like the villains are underwhelming but they were roughly the same.

[Meshack]

In the anime goku had an ace up his sleeve which would help him beat people he couldn't in blue. That would be kaioken , we knew he could increase his power 10-20 times and anybody outside of jiren would lose to that level of power.

In the manga. Goku doesn't have anything above CSSB. Either they are gonna throw kaioken in the tournament or goku will use the time chamber and come out much stronger like he did during cell arc

Or... it could something very similar to the 6th Universe Arc. Gokuh was 10 times stronger than Vegeta after transforming into SSGSS. Vegeta lost most of his power because he transformed against Cabbe and he lost against Hit because of this.

Toyotarou can have the Mastered SSGSS 20 time sstronger than Gokuh’s normal SSGSS but it wouldn’t be enough. There’re many different ways for Toyotarou can make Gokuh twenty times stronger so he can face Jiren

I think it’s being looked at from the wrong angle here. Now there’s nothing in the manga than makes it so Jiren HAS to be 20x stronger than Toppo to be a threat. Because Goku doesn’t have anymore aces up his sleeve in the manga and still can’t even hit Toppo, Jiren can just be 2x as strong as Toppo and still be an enormous threat to Goku. Nothing in the manga says Goku needs to get 20x stronger to get to Jirens level. We don’t yet but narratively nothing makes it so that they have to go that strong.

I didn’t say that was the only way. I’m in favor of waiting for what Toyotarou does. I look at the manga as if the anime is not in the question as I read even though it’s ahead.

[The gr]

Only 500 posts left to reach 10000

Good job,keep it up

Holy cow the battle were awesome and i like how toyotaro is improving with the angles like Ajay mention in his twitter, i can't wait for the translation

Side note,was goku gi always plain,i started to noticed this a couple of chapter ago

[Meshack]

But even those ideas have to be checked and confirmed by Toriyama.

Like Goku and Vegeta absorbing the power of the god even in base form, so Vegeta can defeat Gotenks SS3 without any effort. I'm glad Toyotaro got rid of that in his manga.

Obviously those arcs are unnecessary for the main story lines.
The manga is only monthly, so it doesn't have time for the "slice of life" in between comedy arcs.

I don't know why people keep saying manga Hit and Black were weaker to their anime part.
In the manga, Goku and Vegeta are just more competent to their anime parts.
Due to that, it looks like the villains are underwhelming but they were roughly the same.

This is so true

[TheMikado]

Or... it could something very similar to the 6th Universe Arc. Gokuh was 10 times stronger than Vegeta after transforming into SSGSS. Vegeta lost most of his power because he transformed against Cabbe and he lost against Hit because of this.

Toyotarou can have the Mastered SSGSS 20 time sstronger than Gokuh’s normal SSGSS but it wouldn’t be enough. There’re many different ways for Toyotarou can make Gokuh twenty times stronger so he can face Jiren

I think it’s being looked at from the wrong angle here. Now there’s nothing in the manga than makes it so Jiren HAS to be 20x stronger than Toppo to be a threat. Because Goku doesn’t have anymore aces up his sleeve in the manga and still can’t even hit Toppo, Jiren can just be 2x as strong as Toppo and still be an enormous threat to Goku. Nothing in the manga says Goku needs to get 20x stronger to get to Jirens level. We don’t yet but narratively nothing makes it so that they have to go that strong.

There is one reason why Goku needs a huge power increase. Jiren is explicitly stated to be stronger than Belmod. Toppo is training to replace him ONE day, Jiren is already beyong him in power.

But that’s exactly why I believe UI is being setup where power levels are irrelevant. Whis specific said to Vegeta that mastering UI would allow Vegeta to be be competitive no matter what. They don’t need to surpass Beerus or Jiren to beat him which would be a great change of pace.

[Lord Frieza]

Have to say at first I though all the GoD's attacks were a bit odd...but then I realised they made sense. They were all mortals once, they all lived different lives, learned different styles and ways of fighting. Being a GoD will not change that, Goku and Toppo would not suddenly change how they faught or what techniques they used just becuase of getting the job. Each one reflects who they used to be.

The fact they are all fighting in an unfocused manner is no big shocker either. First there seems to be a lot of bad blood between them all, not just Beerus. Second their GoD, they have spent countless years weilding their monsterus power with little to challange them or make them focus. So when they finally get a chance to cut loose agenst worthy foes it comes off more like a mad brawl then a battle.

[Meshack]

I think it’s being looked at from the wrong angle here. Now there’s nothing in the manga than makes it so Jiren HAS to be 20x stronger than Toppo to be a threat. Because Goku doesn’t have anymore aces up his sleeve in the manga and still can’t even hit Toppo, Jiren can just be 2x as strong as Toppo and still be an enormous threat to Goku. Nothing in the manga says Goku needs to get 20x stronger to get to Jirens level. We don’t yet but narratively nothing makes it so that they have to go that strong.

There is one reason why Goku needs a huge power increase. Jiren is explicitly stated to be stronger than Belmod. Toppo is training to replace him ONE day, Jiren is already beyong him in power.

But that’s exactly why I believe UI is being setup where power levels are irrelevant. Whis specific said to Vegeta that mastering UI would allow Vegeta to be be competitive no matter what. They don’t need to surpass Beerus or Jiren to beat him which would be a great change of pace.

Battle powers wouldn’t be irrelevant but if someone has Migattenogokui, someone with a higher battle power wouldn’t be able to compete like Whis said. With Jiren and Belmod, Jiren has a higher battle power but I presume Belmod has Migattenogokui. It takes a long time to master the technique so I don’t see battle powers becoming “irrelevant”

[Meshack]

First there seems to be a lot of bad blood between them all, not just Beerus. Second their GoD, they have spent countless years weilding their monsterus power with little to challange them or make them focus.

This is why Beerus sealed Roh-Kaiohshin in the Z Sword, because of their temper.

[micah007]

Toyo's art certainly was on point this chapter. All of Goku's transformation scenes looked extremely vibrant, especially SSG.

[TheMikado]

There is one reason why Goku needs a huge power increase. Jiren is explicitly stated to be stronger than Belmod. Toppo is training to replace him ONE day, Jiren is already beyong him in power.

But that’s exactly why I believe UI is being setup where power levels are irrelevant. Whis specific said to Vegeta that mastering UI would allow Vegeta to be be competitive no matter what. They don’t need to surpass Beerus or Jiren to beat him which would be a great change of pace.

Battle powers wouldn’t be irrelevant but if someone has Migattenogokui, someone with a higher battle power wouldn’t be able to compete like Whis said. With Jiren and Belmod, Jiren has a higher battle power but I presume Belmod has Migattenogokui. It takes a long time to master the technique so I don’t see battle powers becoming “irrelevant”

Well they would certainly matter for anyone who does use the technique. Of course it would make it easier if you’re strong even if you do have it. I mean the idea of different techniques overcoming raw strength. Hit was competitive Because if time skip not just being stronger than Goku. Merged Zamasu was competitive not because he was stronger than Vegetto Blue but because he had immortality. Jiren seems to be a Wall Goku just can’t get over powerwise so hopefully it starts a new chapter where power isn’t everything if you actually are skilled. They tried to do that with Roshi and Krillin and I’m glad they did even if the execution could have been better.

[Miracles]

But that’s exactly why I believe UI is being setup where power levels are irrelevant. Whis specific said to Vegeta that mastering UI would allow Vegeta to be be competitive no matter what. They don’t need to surpass Beerus or Jiren to beat him which would be a great change of pace.

The only way for Goku to even compete with Jiren with "Ultra instinct" was due to the Genki Dama giving him power to close the gap difference
"Ultra instinct" will not allow one to outmaneuver someone who is on another level in power. Ki size/control is always everything in Dragonball.

[Lord Frieza]

Its also cool to see my to faviorts doing well. Belmod's obviously a great card player but the real shocker was my second faviort, poor Rumsshi. As expected of the GoD of the Macho universe he seems to role out a good, old fastioned, raw power beat down. Hell, he's like a rampaging elephent!

Funny thing, out of all the gods in the scans I have seen, he's the only one who attack looks even remotley like his Heroes one.

God of Destruction's Cry! - https://youtu.be/8JwlbelNk5w?t=46

[TheMikado]

But that’s exactly why I believe UI is being setup where power levels are irrelevant. Whis specific said to Vegeta that mastering UI would allow Vegeta to be be competitive no matter what. They don’t need to surpass Beerus or Jiren to beat him which would be a great change of pace.

The only way for Goku to even compete with Jiren with "Ultra instinct" was due to the Genki Dama giving him power to close the gap difference
"Ultra instinct" will not allow one to outmaneuver someone who is on another level in power. Ki size/control is always everything in Dragonball.

That’s not what Whis says in the manga.