Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[ZombieVito]

Base Gohan was stronger than Piccolo in RoF, though still much weaker than Freeza even as Super Saiyan. Later the two of them train for what I think was eight months, and seem to have made crazy gains as Piccolo is at least in the same order of magnitude of power as Base Goku and Vegeta, and base Gohan was fighting on par with him, and was training himself ever since then.

Now I think the simplest explanation - one that doesn't involve "two bases," or retcons, or just outright ignoring stuff - is to take it for what it is, and accept that Gohan and Piccolo just increased in power a lot since RoF arc. I think a lot of people are balking at it because that would mean some truly crazy gains for no adequately explained reason, but I think that at this point we should just accept that Super is just a lot more generous with power increases that Z ever was. There's no in-universe reason for that, it's just how the series is written now.

With that said I would put the power scale somewhere like:


Base Goku>>Ultimate Gohan>=Current Base Gohan>ss3 Gotenks>= Current Piccolo> Super buu > ss2 gotenks > ss gohan (rof) > ss gotenks > buu >Base Gohan (rof)>Piccolo (rof)

It's not perfect, or free of contradictions, but I don't think we can make one at this point without outright ignoring stuff that's inconvenient to our vision.

Current Piccolo is not stronger than Boo.

[emperior]

How do you guys explain Base Black being able to kick SSB Vegeta, speed surprising him and being able to take many hits without scratches?
Other than inconsistent power levels, by the way.
Only way I can explain it is that Black powers up incredibly after fighting Goku, and when he goes Rosè it is only a 2x boost.
--------------------------

For anyone interested, here's my list for DBS with no two-base theory. If you want a list of PLs with the two base theory, you can find it on my signature.

Multipliers
Oozaru - 10x
SSJ - 50x
SSJ2 - 100x
SSJ3 - 400x
SSG - 900x
SSB - 1000x
SSR - 50x

Fusions
Dance = [(A+B)] x 5
Potara = [(A+B)] x ???

Battle of Gods Arc

[spoiler]Goku
Base - 50,000,000
SSJ - 2,500,000,000
SSJ2 - 5,000,000,000
SSJ3 - 20,000,000,000
SSG - 4,500,000,000,000

Vegeta
Base - 45,000,000
SSJ - 2,250,000,000
SSJ2 - 4,500,000,000
SSJ2 Enraged - 450,000,000,000

Gohan
Base - 20,000,000
SSJ - 1,000,000,000
Ultimate - 20,000,000,000

Majin Buu - 6,000,000,000

#18 - 350,000,000

Beerus
10% (Suppressed) - 500,000,000,000
100% (Suppressed) - 5,000,000,000,000
True Power - ? (1000)

Whis
True Power - ? (1500)[/spoiler]


Resurrection of Freezer Arc

[spoiler]Goku
Base - 10,000,000,000
SSB - 10,000,000,000,000

Vegeta
Base - 10,000,000,000
SSB - 10,000,000,000,000

Freezer
1st Form - 1,300,000,000
4th Form - 10,000,000,000
Golden - 12,000,000,000,000
Exhausted - 6,000,000,000,000 (Dropping)


Gohan
Base - 20,000,000
SSJ - 1,000,000,000

Freezer's Soldiers - Average of 100

Piccolo - 950,000,000
Tenshinan - 1,500,000
Krillin - 1,000,000
Master Roshi - 300
Jaco- 150[/spoiler]


Champa Tournament Arc

U7

[spoiler]Whis - ? (1500)

Beerus - ? (1000)

Goku
Base - 12,000,000,000
SSJ - 600,000,000,000
SSB - 12,000,000,000,000
SSB + KKx2 - 24,000,000,000,000
SSB + KKx10 - 120,000,000,000,000

Vegeta

Base - 12,000,000,000
SSJ - 600,000,000,000
SSB - 12,000,000,000,000

Piccolo - 3,000,000,000

Majin Buu - 6,000,000,000

Monaka - 1[/spoiler]

U6

[spoiler]Vados - ? (1501)

Champa - ? (999)

Botamo - 10,000,000,000

Frost
1st Form - 1,530,000,000
Assault Form - 2,120,000,000
Final Form - 100,000,000,000

Otto Magetta - 1,000,000,000,000

Cabba
Base - 10,000,000,000
SSJ - 500,000,000,000

Hit - 25,000,000,000,000[/spoiler]


Future Trunks Arc


Present

[spoiler]Future Trunks
Base - 10,000,000,000
SSJ2 - 1,500,000,000,000

Black
Full Power - 2,500,000,000,000
vs Goku - 1,500,000,000,000

Goku
Base - 15,000,000,000
SSJ2 - 1,500,000,000,000
SSJ3 vs Trunks - 2,000,000,000,000
SSJ3 Full Power - 6,000,000,000,000

Zamasu - 1,000,000,000,000[/spoiler]

Future

[spoiler]Future Trunks (Post Training)
Base - 12,000,000,000
FPSSJ2 - 12,000,000,000,000
Super Trunks - 24,000,000,000,000

Vegeta
Base - 15,000,000,000
SSB - 15,000,000,000,000

Goku
Base - 15,000,000,000
SSB - 15,000,000,000,000
SSB (Rage) - 20,000,000,000

Vegeta (Rage + Training)
Base - 30,000,000,000
SSB - 30,000,000,000,000

Black
Base - 2,500,000,000,000
SSR - 20,000,000,000,000
SSR Full Power - 25,000,000,000,000
SSR (Scythe) - 30,000,000,000,000

(Black is quite tricky. He never shows his full SSR power before Vegeta beats him after his training)

Future Zamasu - 10,000,000,000,000

Fusions

Goku
Base - 25,000,000,000
SSB - 25,000,000,000,000
SSB + KKx4 - 75,000,000,000,000
SSB + KKx10 - 250,000,000,000,000

Vegeta
Base - 30,000,000,000
SSB - 30,000,000,000,000

Future Trunks (Rage)
Base - 15,000,000,000
Super Trunks - 30,000,000,000,000

Merged Zamasu
Halo - 70,000,000,000,000
Full Power - 560,000,000,000,000
Giant Form - 280,000,000,000,000 (Decreasing)
(When he has the Halo, Zamasu is using 1/8 of his power)

Vegetto
Base - 550,000,000,000
SSB - 550,000,000,000,000

(Merged Zamasu, being the fusion of the same mind and the body of a mortal who Zamasu hates, has a higher Potara boost than Vegetto, who doesn’t have the same boost as the last time because at the time Vegeta hated Goku)

Spirit Sword Trunks - 300,000,000,000,000,000[/spoiler]


Universal Survival Tournament Arc

[spoiler]Zen Exhibition Match

Goku - 30,000,000,000
SSJ - 1,500,000,000,000
(SSB - 30,000,000,000,000)

Gohan - 3,000,000,000
SSJ - 150,000,000,000
(Ultimate - 3,000,000,000,000)

Majin Buu - 6,000,000,000

Basil - 2,500,000,000
Power-Up - 5,000,000,000

Lavenda - 3,000,000,0000[/spoiler]

[TheUltimateNinja]

How do you guys explain Base Black being able to kick SSB Vegeta, speed surprising him and being able to take many hits without scratches?
Other than inconsistent power levels, by the way.
Only way I can explain it is that Black powers up incredibly after fighting Goku, and when he goes Rosè it is only a 2x boost.
--------------------------

For anyone interested, here's my list for DBS with no two-base theory. If you want a list of PLs with the two base theory, you can find it on my signature.

Multipliers
Oozaru - 10x
SSJ - 50x
SSJ2 - 100x
SSJ3 - 400x
SSG - 900x
SSB - 1000x
SSR - 50x

Fusions
Dance = [(A+B)] x 5
Potara = [(A+B)] x ???

Battle of Gods Arc

[spoiler]Goku
Base - 50,000,000
SSJ - 2,500,000,000
SSJ2 - 5,000,000,000
SSJ3 - 20,000,000,000
SSG - 4,500,000,000,000

Vegeta
Base - 45,000,000
SSJ - 2,250,000,000
SSJ2 - 4,500,000,000
SSJ2 Enraged - 450,000,000,000

Gohan
Base - 20,000,000
SSJ - 1,000,000,000
Ultimate - 20,000,000,000

Majin Buu - 6,000,000,000

#18 - 350,000,000

Beerus
10% (Suppressed) - 500,000,000,000
100% (Suppressed) - 5,000,000,000,000
True Power - ? (1000)

Whis
True Power - ? (1500)[/spoiler]


Resurrection of Freezer Arc

[spoiler]Goku
Base - 10,000,000,000
SSB - 10,000,000,000,000

Vegeta
Base - 10,000,000,000
SSB - 10,000,000,000,000

Freezer
1st Form - 1,300,000,000
4th Form - 10,000,000,000
Golden - 12,000,000,000,000
Exhausted - 6,000,000,000,000 (Dropping)


Gohan
Base - 20,000,000
SSJ - 1,000,000,000

Freezer's Soldiers - Average of 100

Piccolo - 950,000,000
Tenshinan - 1,500,000
Krillin - 1,000,000
Master Roshi - 300
Jaco- 150[/spoiler]


Champa Tournament Arc

U7

[spoiler]Whis - ? (1500)

Beerus - ? (1000)

Goku
Base - 12,000,000,000
SSJ - 600,000,000,000
SSB - 12,000,000,000,000
SSB + KKx2 - 24,000,000,000,000
SSB + KKx10 - 120,000,000,000,000

Vegeta

Base - 12,000,000,000
SSJ - 600,000,000,000
SSB - 12,000,000,000,000

Piccolo - 3,000,000,000

Majin Buu - 6,000,000,000

Monaka - 1[/spoiler]

U6

[spoiler]Vados - ? (1501)

Champa - ? (999)

Botamo - 10,000,000,000

Frost
1st Form - 1,530,000,000
Assault Form - 2,120,000,000
Final Form - 100,000,000,000

Otto Magetta - 1,000,000,000,000

Cabba
Base - 10,000,000,000
SSJ - 500,000,000,000

Hit - 25,000,000,000,000[/spoiler]


Future Trunks Arc


Present

[spoiler]Future Trunks
Base - 10,000,000,000
SSJ2 - 1,500,000,000,000

Black
Full Power - 2,500,000,000,000
vs Goku - 1,500,000,000,000

Goku
Base - 15,000,000,000
SSJ2 - 1,500,000,000,000
SSJ3 vs Trunks - 2,000,000,000,000
SSJ3 Full Power - 6,000,000,000,000

Zamasu - 1,000,000,000,000[/spoiler]

Future

[spoiler]Future Trunks (Post Training)
Base - 12,000,000,000
FPSSJ2 - 12,000,000,000,000
Super Trunks - 24,000,000,000,000

Vegeta
Base - 15,000,000,000
SSB - 15,000,000,000,000

Goku
Base - 15,000,000,000
SSB - 15,000,000,000,000
SSB (Rage) - 20,000,000,000

Vegeta (Rage + Training)
Base - 30,000,000,000
SSB - 30,000,000,000,000

Black
Base - 2,500,000,000,000
SSR - 20,000,000,000,000
SSR Full Power - 25,000,000,000,000
SSR (Scythe) - 30,000,000,000,000

(Black is quite tricky. He never shows his full SSR power before Vegeta beats him after his training)

Future Zamasu - 10,000,000,000,000

Fusions

Goku
Base - 25,000,000,000
SSB - 25,000,000,000,000
SSB + KKx4 - 75,000,000,000,000
SSB + KKx10 - 250,000,000,000,000

Vegeta
Base - 30,000,000,000
SSB - 30,000,000,000,000

Future Trunks (Rage)
Base - 15,000,000,000
Super Trunks - 30,000,000,000,000

Merged Zamasu
Halo - 70,000,000,000,000
Full Power - 560,000,000,000,000
Giant Form - 280,000,000,000,000 (Decreasing)
(When he has the Halo, Zamasu is using 1/8 of his power)

Vegetto
Base - 550,000,000,000
SSB - 550,000,000,000,000

(Merged Zamasu, being the fusion of the same mind and the body of a mortal who Zamasu hates, has a higher Potara boost than Vegetto, who doesn’t have the same boost as the last time because at the time Vegeta hated Goku)

Spirit Sword Trunks - 300,000,000,000,000,000[/spoiler]


Universal Survival Tournament Arc

[spoiler]Zen Exhibition Match

Goku - 30,000,000,000
SSJ - 1,500,000,000,000
(SSB - 30,000,000,000,000)

Gohan - 3,000,000,000
SSJ - 150,000,000,000
(Ultimate - 3,000,000,000,000)

Majin Buu - 6,000,000,000

Basil - 2,500,000,000
Power-Up - 5,000,000,000

Lavenda - 3,000,000,0000[/spoiler]

Your list with the 2 base theory was a lot better. At this point I don't think power levels can be properly explained without resorting to the two base/retcon theories.

[Bulma's Foot Masseur]

Now I think the simplest explanation - one that doesn't involve "two bases," or retcons, or just outright ignoring stuff - is to take it for what it is, and accept that Gohan and Piccolo just increased in power a lot since RoF arc. I think a lot of people are balking at it because that would mean some truly crazy gains for no adequately explained reason, but I think that at this point we should just accept that Super is just a lot more generous with power increases that Z ever was. There's no in-universe reason for that, it's just how the series is written now.

I always suspected that power gains for the side cast were largely based on motivation, becoming galvanized by whoever is the strongest in the group at the time and how strong they are. That's basically how it's always worked anyway, and the Super Saiyan God spectacle everyone witnessed would only accelerate it further. Unprecedentedly so.

[Bullza]

Nitpick, but I don't agree with final form Frost being in the SS tier.

Yeah I suppose you're right. I should have put them in that Inbetween Tier.

I have the Frost that fought Piccolo as being about 4-5 times as strong as him. Back at the start of Z Piccolo's Special Beam Cannon had three times the power of Piccolo. When Piccolo was fighting Frost he said he was charging up an attack far beyond his normal limits.

So yeah Frost would be over three times as strong but couldn't be too much more that that.

I mean if Piccolo and base Goku are both 1s, and SS Goku a 50, then what was final form Frost originally? 35 and then he dropped to under 2?

Well that can be figured out perhaps. If we assume the gap between Frost's forms are the same as Frieza's then Frost would have got about 30 times as strong between his third and final form.

His third form was implied to be weaker than Base Goku (it's more clear in the manga) so he could be a 25? Simply put roughly around half as strong as Super Saiyan Goku.

Perhaps Barry Khan level?

[TheUltimateNinja]

I mean if Piccolo and base Goku are both 1s, and SS Goku a 50, then what was final form Frost originally? 35 and then he dropped to under 2?

Well that can be figured out perhaps. If we assume the gap between Frost's forms are the same as Frieza's then Frost would have got about 30 times as strong between his third and final form.

His third form was implied to be weaker than Base Goku (it's more clear in the manga) so he could be a 25? Simply put roughly around half as strong as Super Saiyan Goku.

Perhaps Barry Khan level?

Where are you getting a 30x gap between Freeza's 3rd and 4th forms? It's a ~60x gap at least.

[Bullza]

Where are you getting a 30x gap between Freeza's 3rd and 4th forms? It's a ~60x gap at least.

Oh yeah you're right, I have no idea what I was thinking there. Well forgot what I said about that then. That just makes Assault Form Frost much weaker than I thought.

In the manga Frost did put up a better fight against both Goku and Vegeta than in the anime, he did awful in the anime.

[RandomGuy96]

Nitpick, but I don't agree with final form Frost being in the SS tier.

Yeah I suppose you're right. I should have put them in that Inbetween Tier.

I have the Frost that fought Piccolo as being about 4-5 times as strong as him. Back at the start of Z Piccolo's Special Beam Cannon had three times the power of Piccolo. When Piccolo was fighting Frost he said he was charging up an attack far beyond his normal limits. So yeah Frost would be over three times as strong but couldn't be too much more that that.

Not sure about that. I'd think Piccolo's ability to even survive should take priority rather than extrapolating from that vague statement. If Frost was four times as strong as Piccolo or whatever, why would he need to cheat to win? Why couldn't he simply speed blitz Piccolo and kill him in one blow with even more ease than Goku took apart the Ginyus or Nappa took out Tenshinhan? Or Recoome took out Gohan and Krillin? Or, to use a more relevant example, the same ease with which Raditz showed he could take out Piccolo? Et cetera.

I mean if Piccolo and base Goku are both 1s, and SS Goku a 50, then what was final form Frost originally? 35 and then he dropped to under 2?

Well that can be figured out perhaps. If we assume the gap between Frost's forms are the same as Frieza's then Frost would have got about 30 times as strong between his third and final form.

His third form was implied to be weaker than Base Goku (it's more clear in the manga) so he could be a 25? Simply put roughly around half as strong as Super Saiyan Goku.

Perhaps Barry Khan level?

I don't think applying the same logic with Freeza's transformations really works here; manga-wise the difference between Freeza's final form and third form should be much bigger than the difference between Goku's base and SS, while the difference between Frost's 'assault form' and final form is clearly much smaller than the difference between Goku's base and SS.

Back in the Freeza arc, base Goku was much stronger than base Vegeta, and base Vegeta must have at least been much stronger than third form Freeza to be confident at all about facing his final form. Final form Freeza, as we all know, was 120 million, while base Goku was 3 million. Logically 3rd form Freeza could've been no higher than 2 million (x60 difference from his final form) and might have been lower.

Since there's really no indication of how strong Frost is other than "stronger than base Goku but way weaker than SS Goku", and his fight with Piccolo suggests he's not too far off from saiyan base forms, I'd probably put him as a 10 or something if base Goku is a 1.

Oh yeah you're right, I have no idea what I was thinking there. Well forgot what I said about that then. That just makes Assault Form Frost much weaker than I thought.

In the manga Frost did put up a better fight against both Goku and Vegeta than in the anime, he did awful in the anime.

Speaking of which, doesn't Cabba regard Frost as stronger than him too? In any case he at least thought Frost was strong enough to be Emperor of the Universe while regarding himself as a relative weakling... and he didn't know Frost could transform. So either there's not a big difference between Frost's forms period (1st form Frost ~ base Goku, Assault Form Frost > base Goku but only moderately, and final form Frost > base Goku but not by multi-folds), or Cabba should be regarded as a weakling as well if Frost's restricted forms are.

[TheUltimateNinja]

I don't think applying the same logic with Freeza's transformations really works here; manga-wise the difference between Freeza's final form and third form should be much bigger than the difference between Goku's base and SS, while the difference between Frost's 'assault form' and final form is clearly much smaller than the difference between Goku's base and SS.

Back in the Freeza arc, base Goku was much stronger than base Vegeta, and base Vegeta must have at least been much stronger than third form Freeza to be confident at all about facing his final form. Final form Freeza, as we all know, was 120 million, while base Goku was 3 million. Logically 3rd form Freeza could've been no higher than 2 million (x60 difference from his final form) and might have been lower.

Since there's really no indication of how strong Frost is other than "stronger than base Goku but way weaker than SS Goku", and his fight with Piccolo suggests he's not too far off from saiyan base forms, I'd probably put him as a 10 or something if base Goku is a 1.

Oh yeah you're right, I have no idea what I was thinking there. Well forgot what I said about that then. That just makes Assault Form Frost much weaker than I thought.

In the manga Frost did put up a better fight against both Goku and Vegeta than in the anime, he did awful in the anime.

Speaking of which, doesn't Cabba regard Frost as stronger than him too? In any case he at least thought Frost was strong enough to be Emperor of the Universe while regarding himself as a relative weakling... and he didn't know Frost could transform. So either there's not a big difference between Frost's forms period (1st form Frost ~ base Goku, Assault Form Frost > base Goku but only moderately, and final form Frost > base Goku but not by multi-folds), or Cabba should be regarded as a weakling as well if Frost's restricted forms are.

I think you're lowballing a bit here, though I do agree with your last point that the gap between his forms probably isn't that large.
First Form Frost: 0.6
Assault Form Frost: 1
Goku: 1
Piccolo: 11
Frost (Exhausted): 16
Final Form Frost: 20
SSJ Goku: 50

[Bullza]

I'd think Piccolo's ability to even survive should take priority rather than extrapolating from that vague statement.

Well Frost did also say he was storing up a considerable amount of Ki and it did break Vados' barrier so it'd make sense. Piccolo was that inferior he didn't bother to even throw a punch, he just stayed away and used tricks.

Speaking of which, doesn't Cabba regard Frost as stronger than him too?

I can't remember but in the manga Vados said Frost was the strongest warrior so he was definitely stronger than Base Cabba there. Vegeta didn't have to transform to fight Base Cabba unlike Frost.

There was also what Vegeta said to Cabba about how he could even think to enter the Tournament with a power like that which could even imply he's weaker than Piccolo who he didn't really have a problem with entering.

[TheUltimateNinja]

I'd think Piccolo's ability to even survive should take priority rather than extrapolating from that vague statement.

Well Frost did also say he was storing up a considerable amount of Ki and it did break Vados' barrier so it'd make sense. Piccolo was that inferior he didn't bother to even throw a punch, he just stayed away and used tricks.

That's the thing, I don't think tricks would work on someone that much stronger, Goku was only ~2x stronger than Burter, yet I really doubt Burter using speed clones would fool Goku.

[ZombieVito]

I don't think applying the same logic with Freeza's transformations really works here; manga-wise the difference between Freeza's final form and third form should be much bigger than the difference between Goku's base and SS, while the difference between Frost's 'assault form' and final form is clearly much smaller than the difference between Goku's base and SS.

Back in the Freeza arc, base Goku was much stronger than base Vegeta, and base Vegeta must have at least been much stronger than third form Freeza to be confident at all about facing his final form. Final form Freeza, as we all know, was 120 million, while base Goku was 3 million. Logically 3rd form Freeza could've been no higher than 2 million (x60 difference from his final form) and might have been lower.

Since there's really no indication of how strong Frost is other than "stronger than base Goku but way weaker than SS Goku", and his fight with Piccolo suggests he's not too far off from saiyan base forms, I'd probably put him as a 10 or something if base Goku is a 1.

Oh yeah you're right, I have no idea what I was thinking there. Well forgot what I said about that then. That just makes Assault Form Frost much weaker than I thought.

In the manga Frost did put up a better fight against both Goku and Vegeta than in the anime, he did awful in the anime.

Speaking of which, doesn't Cabba regard Frost as stronger than him too? In any case he at least thought Frost was strong enough to be Emperor of the Universe while regarding himself as a relative weakling... and he didn't know Frost could transform. So either there's not a big difference between Frost's forms period (1st form Frost ~ base Goku, Assault Form Frost > base Goku but only moderately, and final form Frost > base Goku but not by multi-folds), or Cabba should be regarded as a weakling as well if Frost's restricted forms are.

I think you're lowballing a bit here, though I do agree with your last point that the gap between his forms probably isn't that large.
First Form Frost: 0.6
Assault Form Frost: 1
Goku: 1
Piccolo: 11
Frost (Exhausted): 16
Final Form Frost: 20
SSJ Goku: 50

How can Frost be exhausted if he's only at 80% of power? He should be way lower.

[ChiefWamsutta]

Zeno Tier

Zeno

God Tier

Grand Priest
Vados
Whis
Beerus
Champa

Fusion Tier

Super Saiyan Blue Vegito
Merged Zamasu
Super Saiyan Blue Goku Kaioken
Spirit Trunks

Super Saiyan God Tier

Super Saiyan Rose Black
Super Saiyan Blue Goku/Vegeta/Trunks
Hit
Golden Frieza
Super Saiyan God Goku

Super Saiyan 2/3 Tier

Base Black (Possibly higher)
Super Saiyan 3 Goku
Super Saiyan 2 Goku/Vegeta
Zamasu
Super Saiyan 2 Trunks (At first)

Super Saiyan Tier

Super Saiyan Goku/Vegeta/Gohan
Super Saiyan Cabba
Magetta
Super Saiyan Trunks (At first)
Final Form Frost

That inbetween Tier

Buu
Super Basil
Super Perfect Cell

Base Tier

Base Goku/Vegeta/Gohan/Piccolo
Basil/Lavender
Base Cabba
Base Trunks (Before training)
Super Saiyan Goten/Kid Trunks
Tagoma

I agree with most of this, except for a few things. I would put Base Cabba and Base F. Trunks right next to each other with a slash. I'm curious on your reasoning why he is slightly below. I don't think Magetta was stronger than Final Form Frost.

This idea is really great, and I am sticking to this!! However, this doesn't seem to be able to pass three tests.

1) Super Saiyan Goku vs. Beerus in Outer Space (Battle of Gods)
2) Base Goku vs. Final Form Frieza (Resurrection 'F')
3) SS3 Gotenks vs. Base Copy-Vegeta (U6 Saga)

[TheUltimateNinja]

I think you're lowballing a bit here, though I do agree with your last point that the gap between his forms probably isn't that large.
First Form Frost: 0.6
Assault Form Frost: 1
Goku: 1
Piccolo: 11
Frost (Exhausted): 16
Final Form Frost: 20
SSJ Goku: 50

How can Frost be exhausted if he's only at 80% of power? He should be way lower.

Goku didn't even beat him up that badly, I doubt he lost too much power.

[ZombieVito]

I think you're lowballing a bit here, though I do agree with your last point that the gap between his forms probably isn't that large.
First Form Frost: 0.6
Assault Form Frost: 1
Goku: 1
Piccolo: 11
Frost (Exhausted): 16
Final Form Frost: 20
SSJ Goku: 50

How can Frost be exhausted if he's only at 80% of power? He should be way lower.

Goku didn't even beat him up that badly, I doubt he lost too much power.

Come on now. His legs were shaking and he had trouble even standing.

[VegetaSSJBlue]

Dragon Ball Super list with two-base theory


MULTIPLIERS

Super Saiyan – 50x
Super Saiyan 2 – 100x
Super Saiyan 3 – 250x
Saiyan Beyond God – 10,000x
Super Saiyan God – 12,000x
Super Saiyan Blue – 12,500x


Battle of Gods Arc


[spoiler]Son Goku – 50,000,000
Super Saiyan – 2,500,000,000
Super Saiyan 2 – 5,000,000,000
Super Saiyan 3 – 12,500,000,000
Super Saiyan God – 600,000,000,000

Vegeta – 45,000,000
Super Saiyan – 2,250,000,000
Super Saiyan 2 – 4,500,000,000
Super Saiyan 2 [Enraged] – 45,000,000,000

Son Gohan – 10,000,000,000
Majin Buu – 4,000,000,000
Piccolo – 1,500,000,000
Gotenks – 225,000,000
Android 18 – 180,000,000
Trunks – 23,000,000
Son Goten – 22,000,000
Tenshinhan – 30,000
Kuririn – 10,000
Yamcha – 6,000
Chaozu – 6,000

Beerus – 100,000,000,000,000
Whis – 500,000,000,000,000[/spoiler]


Resurrection of Freezer Arc


[spoiler]Son Goku – 60,000,000
Saiyan Beyond God – 600,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Blue – 750,000,000,000

Vegeta – 60,000,000
Saiyan Beyond God – 600,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Blue – 750,000,000,000

Gotenks – 225,000,000
Super Saiyan – 11,250,000,000

Son Gohan – 60,000,000
Super Saiyan – 3,000,000,000

Piccolo – 1,600,000,000
Tenshinhan – 32,000
Kuririn – 10,000
Muten Roshi – 2,500
Jaco – 1,500

Freeza Soldiers – 1,000
Sorbet – 4,000
Shisami – 25,000

Tagoma – 2,000,000,000
Ginyu – 2,500,000,000

Freeza – 10,000,000,000
Final Form – 600,000,000,000
Golden Form – 800,000,000,000[/spoiler]


Champa Tournament Arc


[spoiler]Son Goku – 80,000,000
Super Saiyan – 4,000,000,000
Saiyan Beyond God – 800,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Blue – 1,000,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Blue Kaio-Ken x10 – 10,000,000,000,000

Vegeta – 80,000,000
Super Saiyan – 4,000,000,000
Saiyan Beyond God – 800,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Blue – 1,000,000,000,000

Son Gohan – 80,000,000
Super Saiyan – 4,000,000,000

Majin Buu – 4,000,000,000
Piccolo– 2,000,000,000
Monaka – 10

Botamo – 20,000,000

Frost – 40,000,000
Assault Form – 80,000,000
Final Form – 2,800,000,000

Magetta – 3,500,000,000

Cabba – 75,000,000
Super Saiyan – 3,750,000,000

Hit – 1,000,000,000,000

Beerus – 100,000,000,000,000
Champa – 95,000,000,000,000
Whis – 500,000,000,000,000
Vados – 505,000,000,000,000[/spoiler]

[RandomGuy96]

I'd think Piccolo's ability to even survive should take priority rather than extrapolating from that vague statement.

Well Frost did also say he was storing up a considerable amount of Ki and it did break Vados' barrier so it'd make sense. Piccolo was that inferior he didn't bother to even throw a punch, he just stayed away and used tricks.

Speaking of which, doesn't Cabba regard Frost as stronger than him too?

I can't remember but in the manga Vados said Frost was the strongest warrior so he was definitely stronger than Base Cabba there. Vegeta didn't have to transform to fight Base Cabba unlike Frost.

There was also what Vegeta said to Cabba about how he could even think to enter the Tournament with a power like that which could even imply he's weaker than Piccolo who he didn't really have a problem with entering.

Tricks wouldn't even work if he was that much weaker though, you'd see something like Tenshinhan's 'fight' with Nappa where the stronger fighter simply rushes and one-shots the weaker fighter while they can't do jack about it.

I swear in the anime she said something like "Frost is our best hand to hand fighter". In any case, Cabba clearly didn't know Frost could transform, yet considered him the undisputed Emperor of the Universe anyway. Should this then mean 1st form Frost > Cabba?

[ssbgoku]

There is just one conclusion people pulled of in rof with which I can not agree based on hints and what happened.

I am talking about first form frieza being above ss gohan back then. Just let look at facts which supports first form frieza > ss gohan:

- gohan getting serious and wanting to hold off frieza in first form believing he can
- everyone being scared feeling ki comming from approaching them frieeza.

Facts and hints supporting rof ss gohan > first form frieza:

- Even after feeling frieza ki krillin assure himself and everyone it is ok as long as they have buu with them. Good buu > supressed firs6 form frieza.

- Everyone is letting down when gohan mentions no keeping up with training and even then gohan believe he can hold off frieza.

- Ss gohan having trouble to stay in ss while golden ftieza had same issue would be one of main points of rof. "No matter how strong you are if you can not maintain it for long enough you are screwed. "

- ss gotenks felt confident about taking on supressed most likely first form frieza. Gotenks picked up his interest too.

- frieza got enraged and worried a bit when ss gohan beats ginyuu tagoma

- frieza using sneaking laser beam to attack rusty gohan was struggling to stay ss so he could know wasting his energy attacking frieza wouldnt do any good as frieza has 3 forms more !

- enraged ss gohan call for help supressed any power up from first form frieza and goku didnt comment anything until frieza reached final form

- goku calling buu crazy strong while enraged even although before u6.

- goku being not happt abouy buu not taking part in tournament. Possible hints good buu ~ first form frost.

So please tell me guys why are you stubborn to say first form frieza was stronger not even mentioning some believe him to vastly supperior...

[emperior]

There is just one conclusion people pulled of in rof with which I can not agree based on hints and what happened.

I am talking about first form frieza being above ss gohan back then. Just let look at facts which supports first form frieza > ss gohan:

- gohan getting serious and wanting to hold off frieza in first form believing he can
- everyone being scared feeling ki comming from approaching them frieeza.

Facts and hints supporting rof ss gohan > first form frieza:

- Even after feeling frieza ki krillin assure himself and everyone it is ok as long as they have buu with them. Good buu > supressed firs6 form frieza.

- Everyone is letting down when gohan mentions no keeping up with training and even then gohan believe he can hold off frieza.

- Ss gohan having trouble to stay in ss while golden ftieza had same issue would be one of main points of rof. "No matter how strong you are if you can not maintain it for long enough you are screwed. "

- ss gotenks felt confident about taking on supressed most likely first form frieza. Gotenks picked up his interest too.

- frieza got enraged and worried a bit when ss gohan beats ginyuu tagoma

- frieza using sneaking laser beam to attack rusty gohan was struggling to stay ss so he could know wasting his energy attacking frieza wouldnt do any good as frieza has 3 forms more !

- enraged ss gohan call for help supressed any power up from first form frieza and goku didnt comment anything until frieza reached final form

- goku calling buu crazy strong while enraged even although before u6.

- goku being not happt abouy buu not taking part in tournament. Possible hints good buu ~ first form frost.

So please tell me guys why are you stubborn to say first form frieza was stronger not even mentioning some believe him to vastly supperior...

Very good points, but I believe what Goku needed to reach Earth was a spike in power, or maybe, just maybe, when Gohan powered up to call Goku, he reached a level close to SSJ2, so definitely stronger than 1st form Freezer.
By the way I have 1st form Freezer at 1.3 bilion. The movie said he would reach 1.3 milion but that's obviously wrong in every possible way.

As for SSJ Gohan, he would be 1 bil with Piccolo at 950 mil.

[Shlugo]

How do you guys explain Base Black being able to kick SSB Vegeta, speed surprising him and being able to take many hits without scratches?
]Other than inconsistent power levels, by the way.
Only way I can explain it is that Black powers up incredibly after fighting Goku, and when he goes Rosè it is only a 2x boost.
--------------------------

For anyone interested, here's my list for DBS with no two-base theory. If you want a list of PLs with the two base theory, you can find it on my signature.

Snip

Not a bad list, puts everyone on a scale without any convoluted tricks.

I always suspected that power gains for the side cast were largely based on motivation, becoming galvanized by whoever is the strongest in the group at the time and how strong they are. That's basically how it's always worked anyway, and the Super Saiyan God spectacle everyone witnessed would only accelerate it further. Unprecedentedly so.

Huh, makes sense.