Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Bullza]

I was wondering if maybe Vegeta's comment about being near their limits should be ignored actually.

1. They obviously weren't considering how much they grew by the Future Trunks saga. Infact he was supposed to have improved just by the Copy Water saga and that was a few days after.

2. It wasn't said in the manga.

3. When they were actually in the ROSAT training Vegeta said something about how he could tell he was improving.

[ZombieVito]

I was wondering if maybe Vegeta's comment about being near their limits should be ignored actually.

1. They obviously weren't considering how much they grew by the Future Trunks saga. Infact he was supposed to have improved just by the Copy Water saga and that was a few days after.

2. It wasn't said in the manga.

3. When they were actually in the ROSAT training Vegeta said something about how he could tell he was improving.

They improved in the Future Trunks arc by anger though.

[ChiefWamsutta]

I was wondering if maybe Vegeta's comment about being near their limits should be ignored actually.

1. They obviously weren't considering how much they grew by the Future Trunks saga. Infact he was supposed to have improved just by the Copy Water saga and that was a few days after.

2. It wasn't said in the manga.

3. When they were actually in the ROSAT training Vegeta said something about how he could tell he was improving.

I wonder if he meant by training alone they couldn't get past their limits. Fighting the U6 crew, Black and Zamasu, and Copy-Vegeta helped increase their power.

[ChiefWamsutta]

Super Saiyan God Tier

Saiyan Beyond God Goku = Saiyan Beyond God Vegeta (Resurrection F)
Final Form Frieza (Resurrection F)
Saiyan Beyond God Goku (Battle of Gods)
SSJ Beyond God Goku
SSJG Goku

Bullza, in your view of things, do you believe that Super Saiyan Beyond God and Saiyan Beyond God are new forms? As in, we have seen: Base, Great Ape, SS Grades 1-6, SSG, SSB, SSRage, SSRose. You'd add those two to this list?

[Bullza]

Bullza, in your view of things, do you believe that Super Saiyan Beyond God and Saiyan Beyond God are new forms? As in, we have seen: Base, Great Ape, SS Grades 1-6, SSG, SSB, SSRage, SSRose. You'd add those two to this list?

No I wouldn't say they were new forms, at least not like the examples you gave.

Saiyan Beyond God and Super Saiyan Beyond God are just Goku's Base and Super Saiyan form whilst the Super Saiyan God power was running through his body. There was nothing special about his Base or Super Saiyan form specifically, it's just what his appearance changed to after the Red look disappeared.

A hypothetical Super Saiyan 3 Beyond God wouldn't particularly be any stronger than Saiyan Beyond God. It doesn't matter what form he used he'd still only be as strong as however much power Super Saiyan God was putting out.

So no they're the same forms just amplified massively because of another forms power. The Super Saiyan Goku embedded with the other Saiyans power was still the same form just amplified massively because the others put all their Ki into him. The Super Saiyan Goku who killed Super Android 13 was still the same form just amplified massively because he absorbed the Spirit Bomb into himself.

[Simere]

I was wondering if maybe Vegeta's comment about being near their limits should be ignored actually.

1. They obviously weren't considering how much they grew by the Future Trunks saga. Infact he was supposed to have improved just by the Copy Water saga and that was a few days after.

2. It wasn't said in the manga.

3. When they were actually in the ROSAT training Vegeta said something about how he could tell he was improving.

#3 is the most important. I don't know why people have clung to that statement for as long as they have when he admitted he was wrong almost immediately.

[Helios518]

I was wondering if maybe Vegeta's comment about being near their limits should be ignored actually.

1. They obviously weren't considering how much they grew by the Future Trunks saga. Infact he was supposed to have improved just by the Copy Water saga and that was a few days after.

2. It wasn't said in the manga.

3. When they were actually in the ROSAT training Vegeta said something about how he could tell he was improving.

May you give the time stamp of when Vegeta said he could tell he was improving?

[Bullza]

May you give the time stamp of when Vegeta said he could tell he was improving?

https://youtube.com/watch?v=vcZN650f3qU

30 seconds into it.

[khazgore]

meh, i dont wanna fight with you guys on my first post, but why do so many people assume ssb goku kaikoken 10x is 10 times stronger than normal ssb goku?
do you even realise how much being 10 times stronger means, a grown up 100 kg man is barely 10x stronger than a 5 year old child...
and how much does being 10x stronger means, does it means your total stats is being 10x higher, like your twice as fast, twice as durable, twice as strong ki attacks, twice as fast reaction time, and twice of something else? or does it means, your 10x as powerful in everything, cause if you scaled up the best profesional fighters in the world 10x in everything, they would beat the shit out of a t-rex.. you could run 100 meter in 1 second, do 30 punches in 2 second, jump 15-20 meters into the air, and your skin would prolly be so durable that a gunshot wouldnt pierce it.

if i was to quess power levels, i would quess

goku ssb. 5,
goku ssb kaioken 6.
goku ssb10xkaioken 10
toppo 4-5
hit 9
champa 11
beerus 12
whis atleast 20
ssb vegito 20?
vados atleast 20
merged zamasu 15?
grand priest 50?

however, this list is based out of pure melee fighting skills, beerus would prolly still beat ssbkkx10 goku in a fight, because he have the ability to destroy stuff, but if he was forced to melee fight ssb kaikoken goku x10, it would prolly be really close. whis would prolly beat ssb vegito, cause he got so many nigh omipotent abilites, like matter manipulation, and time control. but in a straight up melee fight ssb vegito would put up a fight!

just my humble opinions!

[MisteryOne]

meh, i dont wanna fight with you guys on my first post, but why do so many people assume ssb goku kaikoken 10x is 10 times stronger than normal ssb goku?
do you even realise how much being 10 times stronger means, a grown up 100 kg man is barely 10x stronger than a 5 year old child...
and how much does being 10x stronger means, does it means your total stats is being 10x higher, like your twice as fast, twice as durable, twice as strong ki attacks, twice as fast reaction time, and twice of something else? or does it means, your 10x as powerful in everything, cause if you scaled up the best profesional fighters in the world 10x in everything, they would beat the shit out of a t-rex.. you could run 100 meter in 1 second, do 30 punches in 2 second, jump 15-20 meters into the air, and your skin would prolly be so durable that a gunshot wouldnt pierce it.

if i was to quess power levels, i would quess

goku ssb. 5,
goku ssb kaioken 6.
goku ssb10xkaioken 10
toppo 4-5
hit 9
champa 11
beerus 12
whis atleast 20
ssb vegito 20?
vados atleast 20
merged zamasu 15?
grand priest 50?

however, this list is based out of pure melee fighting skills, beerus would prolly still beat ssbkkx10 goku in a fight, because he have the ability to destroy stuff, but if he was forced to melee fight ssb kaikoken goku x10, it would prolly be really close. whis would prolly beat ssb vegito, cause he got so many nigh omipotent abilites, like matter manipulation, and time control. but in a straight up melee fight ssb vegito would put up a fight!

just my humble opinions!

Going by Hit's comment, it was indeed a x10 increase. And just like clasiccal Kaioken, yeah, it would be 10x at everything. Of course its a gargantuan increase, specially in DB.
Beerus would have easily destroyed Blue Kaioken of the Champa arc, as evidenced by the Hit filler and even the Black arc. There is no way they would be close.

[khazgore]

meh, i dont wanna fight with you guys on my first post, but why do so many people assume ssb goku kaikoken 10x is 10 times stronger than normal ssb goku?
do you even realise how much being 10 times stronger means, a grown up 100 kg man is barely 10x stronger than a 5 year old child...
and how much does being 10x stronger means, does it means your total stats is being 10x higher, like your twice as fast, twice as durable, twice as strong ki attacks, twice as fast reaction time, and twice of something else? or does it means, your 10x as powerful in everything, cause if you scaled up the best profesional fighters in the world 10x in everything, they would beat the shit out of a t-rex.. you could run 100 meter in 1 second, do 30 punches in 2 second, jump 15-20 meters into the air, and your skin would prolly be so durable that a gunshot wouldnt pierce it.

if i was to quess power levels, i would quess

goku ssb. 5,
goku ssb kaioken 6.
goku ssb10xkaioken 10
toppo 4-5
hit 9
champa 11
beerus 12
whis atleast 20
ssb vegito 20?
vados atleast 20
merged zamasu 15?
grand priest 50?

however, this list is based out of pure melee fighting skills, beerus would prolly still beat ssbkkx10 goku in a fight, because he have the ability to destroy stuff, but if he was forced to melee fight ssb kaikoken goku x10, it would prolly be really close. whis would prolly beat ssb vegito, cause he got so many nigh omipotent abilites, like matter manipulation, and time control. but in a straight up melee fight ssb vegito would put up a fight!

just my humble opinions!

Going by Hit's comment, it was indeed a x10 increase. And just like clasiccal Kaioken, yeah, it would be 10x at everything. Of course its a gargantuan increase, specially in DB.
Beerus would have easily destroyed Blue Kaioken of the Champa arc, as evidenced by the Hit filler and even the Black arc. There is no way they would be close.

yea i see... but it still makes no sense. if you scaled up the weakest nerd on high school 10x in everything, he would still beat the shit out of the toughest mma fighers in the world.. i fail to see the point.. i mean ofc, goku looked a lot stronger and did a lot better against hit when he went 10x kaikoken, but nothing i seen from him in that fight was anywhere near 10x. max 1.5-3x... i think db powerlevels are ALLOT closer than what most people realise.. assuming you can survive against someone barely, and your speed, strength, durability and everything is increased by just 3x, you should be able to kill him in less than 10 seconds...i mean comeone, acording to the DB creator, whis powerlevel is just 1,5x stronger than beerus and he one shotted him, yet goku was able to survive against hit in normal ssb, even in baseform lol, assuming hit was 10x stronger than ssb he should have killed him in one punch, assuming whis was just 1.5 more powerfull than beerus there is no way he should have one shotted him.. its so much unconsitesys in db powerlevels... we might aswell just do it by tiers.... sorry my bad english btw

[TheMikado]

meh, i dont wanna fight with you guys on my first post, but why do so many people assume ssb goku kaikoken 10x is 10 times stronger than normal ssb goku?
do you even realise how much being 10 times stronger means, a grown up 100 kg man is barely 10x stronger than a 5 year old child...
and how much does being 10x stronger means, does it means your total stats is being 10x higher, like your twice as fast, twice as durable, twice as strong ki attacks, twice as fast reaction time, and twice of something else? or does it means, your 10x as powerful in everything, cause if you scaled up the best profesional fighters in the world 10x in everything, they would beat the shit out of a t-rex.. you could run 100 meter in 1 second, do 30 punches in 2 second, jump 15-20 meters into the air, and your skin would prolly be so durable that a gunshot wouldnt pierce it.

if i was to quess power levels, i would quess

goku ssb. 5,
goku ssb kaioken 6.
goku ssb10xkaioken 10
toppo 4-5
hit 9
champa 11
beerus 12
whis atleast 20
ssb vegito 20?
vados atleast 20
merged zamasu 15?
grand priest 50?

however, this list is based out of pure melee fighting skills, beerus would prolly still beat ssbkkx10 goku in a fight, because he have the ability to destroy stuff, but if he was forced to melee fight ssb kaikoken goku x10, it would prolly be really close. whis would prolly beat ssb vegito, cause he got so many nigh omipotent abilites, like matter manipulation, and time control. but in a straight up melee fight ssb vegito would put up a fight!

just my humble opinions!

Going by Hit's comment, it was indeed a x10 increase. And just like clasiccal Kaioken, yeah, it would be 10x at everything. Of course its a gargantuan increase, specially in DB.
Beerus would have easily destroyed Blue Kaioken of the Champa arc, as evidenced by the Hit filler and even the Black arc. There is no way they would be close.

yea i see... but it still makes no sense. if you scaled up the weakest nerd on high school 10x in everything, he would still beat the shit out of the toughest mma fighers in the world.. i fail to see the point.. i mean ofc, goku looked a lot stronger and did a lot better against hit when he went 10x kaikoken, but nothing i seen from him in that fight was anywhere near 10x. max 1.5-3x... i think db powerlevels are ALLOT closer than what most people realise.. assuming you can survive against someone barely, and your speed, strength, durability and everything is increased by just 3x, you should be able to kill him in less than 10 seconds...i mean comeone, acording to the DB creator, whis powerlevel is just 1,5x stronger than beerus and he one shotted him, yet goku was able to survive against hit in normal ssb, even in baseform lol, assuming hit was 10x stronger than ssb he should have killed him in one punch, assuming whis was just 1.5 more powerfull than beerus there is no way he should have one shotted him.. its so much unconsitesys in db powerlevels... we might aswell just do it by tiers.... sorry my bad english btw

I think the problem is "canonically" according to the creator of the series Kaioken does act as a straight multiplier. Like it or not that's how it was written in the manga. In order for it to not be wrong now, we need either assume the creator of the original work is wrong and about how his own fictional technique works, or accept that that SSB kaioken x 10 may be in properly written, especially when we don't know if the original author even came up with the idea of SSBxKK to begin with.

[khazgore]

Going by Hit's comment, it was indeed a x10 increase. And just like clasiccal Kaioken, yeah, it would be 10x at everything. Of course its a gargantuan increase, specially in DB.
Beerus would have easily destroyed Blue Kaioken of the Champa arc, as evidenced by the Hit filler and even the Black arc. There is no way they would be close.

yea i see... but it still makes no sense. if you scaled up the weakest nerd on high school 10x in everything, he would still beat the shit out of the toughest mma fighers in the world.. i fail to see the point.. i mean ofc, goku looked a lot stronger and did a lot better against hit when he went 10x kaikoken, but nothing i seen from him in that fight was anywhere near 10x. max 1.5-3x... i think db powerlevels are ALLOT closer than what most people realise.. assuming you can survive against someone barely, and your speed, strength, durability and everything is increased by just 3x, you should be able to kill him in less than 10 seconds...i mean comeone, acording to the DB creator, whis powerlevel is just 1,5x stronger than beerus and he one shotted him, yet goku was able to survive against hit in normal ssb, even in baseform lol, assuming hit was 10x stronger than ssb he should have killed him in one punch, assuming whis was just 1.5 more powerfull than beerus there is no way he should have one shotted him.. its so much unconsitesys in db powerlevels... we might aswell just do it by tiers.... sorry my bad english btw

I think the problem is "canonically" according to the creator of the series Kaioken does act as a straight multiplier. Like it or not that's how it was written in the manga. In order for it to not be wrong now, we need either assume the creator of the original work is wrong and about how his own fictional technique works, or accept that that SSB kaioken x 10 may be in properly written, especially when we don't know if the original author even came up with the idea of SSBxKK to begin with.

yes, i kinda agree with you at some points, but lets take a point in the best mma fighters, if your just 1,2x faster, 1,5, durable, and some other stuff, you will crush your opponent.. i still dont understand where you get this powerlevels from.. take the best boxer in the world, he would have no chance against a 500 kg grizzly bear, add 10x power to hes punch, and he would prolly kill the biggest grizzly bear in one single hit, if you added 10x speed aswell, he could prolly dance around a large group of grizzly bears trying to kill him. if you added 10x durability aswell, the claws of the grizzly bears prolly wouldnt scratch hes skin at all.

i still fail to see, why the entire forum seems to think goku kkx10 is 10x stronger than goku ssb. when whis is just max 2x stronger than beerus and still take him out in one single punch... my opinions. is to care about what you see, not about what the author say from old ago, they dont think anywhere as much, or hard about as this as us diehard fans... db powerlevels will never make sense... lets assume a powerlevel 2x higher than your opponent double all your skills, 2x as fast punches,2x as durable, 2x as strong, and everything else, you would need atleast 10 guys to submit someone with a powerlevel 2x higher than you, assuming it doubled all of your fighting skills.

[TheMikado]

yea i see... but it still makes no sense. if you scaled up the weakest nerd on high school 10x in everything, he would still beat the shit out of the toughest mma fighers in the world.. i fail to see the point.. i mean ofc, goku looked a lot stronger and did a lot better against hit when he went 10x kaikoken, but nothing i seen from him in that fight was anywhere near 10x. max 1.5-3x... i think db powerlevels are ALLOT closer than what most people realise.. assuming you can survive against someone barely, and your speed, strength, durability and everything is increased by just 3x, you should be able to kill him in less than 10 seconds...i mean comeone, acording to the DB creator, whis powerlevel is just 1,5x stronger than beerus and he one shotted him, yet goku was able to survive against hit in normal ssb, even in baseform lol, assuming hit was 10x stronger than ssb he should have killed him in one punch, assuming whis was just 1.5 more powerfull than beerus there is no way he should have one shotted him.. its so much unconsitesys in db powerlevels... we might aswell just do it by tiers.... sorry my bad english btw

I think the problem is "canonically" according to the creator of the series Kaioken does act as a straight multiplier. Like it or not that's how it was written in the manga. In order for it to not be wrong now, we need either assume the creator of the original work is wrong and about how his own fictional technique works, or accept that that SSB kaioken x 10 may be in properly written, especially when we don't know if the original author even came up with the idea of SSBxKK to begin with.

yes, i kinda agree with you at some points, but lets take a point in the best mma fighters, if your just 1,2x faster, 1,5, durable, and some other stuff, you will crush your opponent.. i still dont understand where you get this powerlevels from.. take the best boxer in the world, he would have no chance against a 500 kg grizzly bear, add 10x power to hes punch, and he would prolly kill the biggest grizzly bear in one single hit, if you added 10x speed aswell, he could prolly dance around a large group of grizzly bears trying to kill him. if you added 10x durability aswell, the claws of the grizzly bears prolly wouldnt scratch hes skin at all.

i still fail to see, why the entire forum seems to think goku kkx10 is 10x stronger than goku ssb. when whis is just max 2x stronger than beerus and still take him out in one single punch... my opinions. is to care about what you see, not about what the author say from old ago, they dont think anywhere as much, or hard about as this as us diehard fans... db powerlevels will never make sense... lets assume a powerlevel 2x higher than your opponent double all your skills, 2x as fast punches,2x as durable, 2x as strong, and everything else, you would need atleast 10 guys to submit someone with a powerlevel 2x higher than you, assuming it doubled all of your fighting skills.

Not disagreeing with any of that at all, but the manga doesn't have that problem because it doesn't make sense. Not much else I can say. The core problem is that it seems implied that Toriyama's outline required Goku to be 10x stronger than Vegeta as a SSB, but without giving a reason and leaving it up to the writers of both the anime and manga to pull a reason out of no where. This results in the manga and anime going in two opposite directions to resolve the same problem. Either make Goku 10x stronger for some reason or make Vegeta 10x weaker, the anime went the former and the manga went the latter.

[Helios518]

May you give the time stamp of when Vegeta said he could tell he was improving?

https://youtube.com/watch?v=vcZN650f3qU

30 seconds into it.

Interesting, time to adjust my power scale a bit.

i still fail to see, why the entire forum seems to think goku kkx10 is 10x stronger than goku ssb. when whis is just max 2x stronger than beerus and still take him out in one single punch... my opinions. is to care about what you see, not about what the author say from old ago, they dont think anywhere as much, or hard about as this as us diehard fans... db powerlevels will never make sense... lets assume a powerlevel 2x higher than your opponent double all your skills, 2x as fast punches,2x as durable, 2x as strong, and everything else, you would need atleast 10 guys to submit someone with a powerlevel 2x higher than you, assuming it doubled all of your fighting skills.

Sadly this is DB, where the difference between a normal human (5) and a moon buster is only like 30 - 100x yet later on DB characters would be lucky to move up from base-line planet busting to anything more with a 100x increase in power. Regardless, Kaio-ken does multiply how much ki you have.

[DBZ Macky]

They improved in the Future Trunks arc by anger though.

This.

In their 3 years of training in the RoSaT they probably did improve a lot, just not as much as much as we (and they) thought. Compared to the absolutely insane gains they made in the Cell Saga. The way I interpreted it was that the point was to show that the RoSaT had become obsolete and conventional training methods and sparring wouldn't make a significant difference at the level the Saiyans were now. Not to mention that in the Anime, Goku must have tried to master the SSB and Kaio-Ken combo, which would probably require at least a few months of effort, right?

They became stronger after a series of intense battles in the U6 arc, even noticeably. But really all their huge gains were from training with Whis. In the "Future" Trunks Saga, Vegeta was able to harness his rage and empower his Super Saiyan Blue. Goku also followed suit and was even able to outperform Vegeta in the beam struggle against Merged Zamasu. I think they did get 10x stronger by the Hit vs Goku rematch, but only in their improved SSB forms.

[perucho1990]

Strongest character Toppo could defeat without using his full power, SSJIkari Trunks pre Genkidama mode?

Agree or disagree?

[ChiefWamsutta]

Bullza, in your view of things, do you believe that Super Saiyan Beyond God and Saiyan Beyond God are new forms? As in, we have seen: Base, Great Ape, SS Grades 1-6, SSG, SSB, SSRage, SSRose. You'd add those two to this list?

No I wouldn't say they were new forms, at least not like the examples you gave.

Saiyan Beyond God and Super Saiyan Beyond God are just Goku's Base and Super Saiyan form whilst the Super Saiyan God power was running through his body. There was nothing special about his Base or Super Saiyan form specifically, it's just what his appearance changed to after the Red look disappeared.

A hypothetical Super Saiyan 3 Beyond God wouldn't particularly be any stronger than Saiyan Beyond God. It doesn't matter what form he used he'd still only be as strong as however much power Super Saiyan God was putting out.

So no they're the same forms just amplified massively because of another forms power. The Super Saiyan Goku embedded with the other Saiyans power was still the same form just amplified massively because the others put all their Ki into him. The Super Saiyan Goku who killed Super Android 13 was still the same form just amplified massively because he absorbed the Spirit Bomb into himself.

Ahhhhhhh, okay, I understand now. They are just scaled up more. Yeah, the use of the word Saiyan Beyond God and Super Saiyan Beyond God confused me ever since Heroes tried to make it sound like a new form. I could never grasp what it was classified as.


So powerscaling-wise you would say this makes sense?

Super Saiyan Blue Tier: Super Saiyan Blue Goku

Super Saiyan God Tier: Super Saiyan God Goku = Super Saiyan Goku (God Power, Battle of Gods) = Base Goku (God Power, Battle of Gods)


I have been trying to rationalize what happened during Battle of Gods and Resurrection F and I'd be curious on your thoughts. What if during the fight in Ep. 14, Beerus was not correct that the SSG power had been absorbed into Goku's body? What if we said it was still transitioning for awhile after the fight with Beerus? The Universe 6 Tournament is when the powerlevels started to stabilize, and, we could say, just like the SSG power.

[Helios518]

They improved in the Future Trunks arc by anger though.

This.

In their 3 years of training in the RoSaT they probably did improve a lot, just not as much as much as we (and they) thought. Compared to the absolutely insane gains they made in the Cell Saga. The way I interpreted it was that the point was to show that the RoSaT had become obsolete and conventional training methods and sparring wouldn't make a significant difference at the level the Saiyans were now. Not to mention that in the Anime, Goku must have tried to master the SSB and Kaio-Ken combo, which would probably require at least a few months of effort, right?

They became stronger after a series of intense battles in the U6 arc, even noticeably. But really all their huge gains were from training with Whis. In the "Future" Trunks Saga, Vegeta was able to harness his rage and empower his Super Saiyan Blue. Goku also followed suit and was even able to outperform Vegeta in the beam struggle against Merged Zamasu. I think they did get 10x stronger by the Hit vs Goku rematch, but only in their improved SSB forms.

I'm like the idea of them improving their SSJB power w/o increasing their base but what suggests that Vegeta and Goku did improve their SSJB forms and via rage?

[Bullza]

So powerscaling-wise you would say this makes sense?

Yeah pretty much, that's what the anime looks like it could be getting at. If I was more specific I'd say Base (God Power) > Super Saiyan (God Power) > Super Saiyan God just because throughout the fight Super Saiyan God just kept putting out more power.

Even when he was a Super Saiyan God he kept getting stronger with each episode.

I have been trying to rationalize what happened during Battle of Gods and Resurrection F and I'd be curious on your thoughts. What if during the fight in Ep. 14, Beerus was not correct that the SSG power had been absorbed into Goku's body? What if we said it was still transitioning for awhile after the fight with Beerus? The Universe 6 Tournament is when the powerlevels started to stabilize, and, we could say, just like the SSG power.

I have no idea how you'd make sense of it In Universe. That he can turn into a Yellow and Blue haired Super Saiyan in the anime really throws me.

He seemed to have absorbed the God power against Beerus and then still had it in his Base form by the time he fought Frieza over a year later. So now when he goes Super Saiyan he turns Blue because of it. So that's simple enough.

However the Universe 6 Tournament when he turned Super Saiyan he was Yellow. If a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God as a Super Saiyan is Blue....then wouldn't a Saiyan without the power of Super Saiyan God just turn Yellow like he always did?

The anime now seems to point toward these regular Super Saiyan forms and the Base Goku who transforms into them as not being God level so that would make sense too.

But then what happened between the Resurrection F saga and Universe 6 saga that Goku now doesn't permanently have that power in his Base form at all times?