Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[ssbgoku]

So if Jiren is the mortal above his God of Destruction and Goku's new form is enough to match or even beat him then would we have to say Goku was above Super Saiyan Blue Vegito and Beerus?

If Jiren is the mortal, I would say this:

SSNew Goku = Jiren >> Belmod > Beerus > SSB Vegito > Mutated Merged Zamasu

Vegito was slightly above Zamasu, and Vegito was compared to be around Beerus. I still believe Beerus is sligfhtly above. Belmod would be the one to beat Beerus in an arm wrestle, so he is slightly above Beerus. Jiren is probably more than slightly above Belmod, if th is is the case.

Sorry but it sounds completly wrong. I mean I will not buy for even one second that goku can suprass SSB Vegito in dbs in opposite dbs and dbz characters relative scaling. There was huge jump in power between dbz and dbs (that why current goku > dbz vegetto). Same with Merged Zamasu, fusions which are hyped so much so simply above Gods of destructions, just as expections. So for me:

SSB Vegetto > Mutated Merged Zamasu >= SSNew Goku >= Jiren > Belmod ~ Beerus

I honestly believe only Angels are above such powerfull fusions, they are next level to be suprassed by fusions while mortals alone still struggle to suprass gods of destructions. Anyway Current goku and Vegeta as ssb vegetto could be close to angels, this is how goku and vegeta were compared to vegito in dbz so it stay consitent I hope and Akira sticks to it, while neither anime or manga can show it properly, just hints.

[Marlowe89]

I'd say Vegito Blue is at least slightly stronger than Beerus; at most, moderately stronger. Even just going by authorial intent, it doesn't make any sense for Shin's contemplation to be present in the manga if not to give readers a general indication of how strong Vegito is. Moreover, Blue Kaioken Goku was strong enough to briefly intimidate Champa and even make Whis question whether Beerus was worried about being outmatched, and regardless of whether that was ultimately correct, it's important to note that Vegito Blue is much stronger still than that version of Goku.

Goku's new form surpassing Vegito would be a bit weird, but it's certainly not impossible.

[TheOne]

I'd say Vegito Blue is at least slightly stronger than Beerus; at most, moderately stronger. Even just going by authorial intent, it doesn't make any sense for Shin's contemplation to be present in the manga if not to give readers a general indication of how strong Vegito is. Moreover, Blue Kaioken Goku was strong enough to briefly intimidate Champa and even make Whis question whether Beerus was worried about being outmatched, and regardless of whether that was ultimately correct, it's important to note that Vegito Blue is much stronger still than that version of Goku.

Goku's new form surpassing Vegito would be a bit weird, but it's certainly not impossible.

It's like you all are trying to state these things as facts. You honestly believe SSB Vegito is stronger than Beerus? They keep giving subtle hints that Beerus is still in a different realm of power. Looking at how Vegito handled merged Zamasu, you can't honestly believe that can you? Could you imagine Beerus struggling to be merged Zamasu? Absolutely not. He would've made very quick work of him. Don't try and say that Beerus wouldn't be able to completely eradicate him because we don't know if could or not. There were no Gods of Destruction in that time. I doubt he'd be so bold if there still were.

Fast forward to now. Sidra just used only a little bit of his energy to take out Frieza and Goku. Frieza broke out of it, but not after struggling for awhile and giving it their all. Goku would've been in a similar situation in Blue. Now, say for instance that was Vegito inside. Yes Vegito would be able to get out a lot easier than Goku did, but not by BLOWING THE ATTACK AWAY. Beerus used nothing more than air to blow that attack Frieza and Goku were struggling with away. And that was just a fraction of Sidras strength. Not full power. Just enough for what HE thought was enough.

Vegito couldn't even One Shot merged Zamasu. Even if he was never intended to beat Zamasu, the fact that he had to turn blue just fight on par/slightly stronger than him means he has was nowhere near Beerus level. You can use the excuse they needed toy sales, but that's not going to change anything.

I thought I was intense about power levels, but you guys take this stuff to a whole different level of nonesense.

I'm sorry if I come across as rude, but Seeing you guys post stuff as if they're fact gets frustrating. Things will be a lot clearer for you if you just accept that Beerus is still well above the Z fighters. The show is constantly telling you there's still a huge gap between the mortals and gods of Destruction.

There's only ONE mortal on record that's stronger than Gods of Destruction, and he's in an unknown universe. No it's not Jiren. Goku is NOT going to beat someone that's stronger than a God of Destruction in this tournament for sure. It's clearly a foreshadowing of a FUTURE ARC. Yeah obviously Jiren is freakishly strong, but he's there as this arcs rival. Goku has to have someone in this arc who is going to match or surpass him this arc for the sake of drama.

[TheOne]

So if Jiren is the mortal above his God of Destruction and Goku's new form is enough to match or even beat him then would we have to say Goku was above Super Saiyan Blue Vegito and Beerus?

If Jiren is the mortal, I would say this:

SSNew Goku = Jiren >> Belmod > Beerus > SSB Vegito > Mutated Merged Zamasu

Vegito was slightly above Zamasu, and Vegito was compared to be around Beerus. I still believe Beerus is sligfhtly above. Belmod would be the one to beat Beerus in an arm wrestle, so he is slightly above Beerus. Jiren is probably more than slightly above Belmod, if th is is the case.

I think it's very clear Jiren is most certainty not the mortal you are speaking of.

I don't know why people are still treating this as the gospel truth.

[Dragonballgod19]

People are downplaying vegito it was said he's stronger than beerus and db xenoverse 2 profile saids he's stronger than beerus and vegito godstomp him in the manga he only struggled in the anime and even in the anime he started to stomp him after he stabbed him stop lowballing vegito

[Legion]

I don't believe that Jiren is the mortal, but if is the mortal, i doubt that is more stronger than the Hakaishins. Whis only said that a God of Destruction can't defeat this mortal, not that he can stomps them. If Goku will beat him (and alone), we'll see.

Ah, the Hakaishins are stronger than Merged Zamasu, imo. Vegetto is in the same tier with Beerus, in the manga, but he can't beat him with time limit.

[Legion]

People are downplaying vegito it was said he's stronger than beerus and db xenoverse 2 profile saids he's stronger than beerus and vegito godstomp him in the manga he only struggled in the anime and even in the anime he started to stomp him after he stabbed him stop lowballing vegito

Actually, Shin only said that Vegetto might be stronger than Beerus, and Toyotaro said in Napoli comic con that is not sure if is true or no.

[Hugo Boss]

So if Jiren is the mortal above his God of Destruction and Goku's new form is enough to match or even beat him then would we have to say Goku was above Super Saiyan Blue Vegito and Beerus?

If Jiren is the mortal, I would say this:

SSNew Goku = Jiren >> Belmod > Beerus > SSB Vegito > Mutated Merged Zamasu

Vegito was slightly above Zamasu, and Vegito was compared to be around Beerus. I still believe Beerus is sligfhtly above. Belmod would be the one to beat Beerus in an arm wrestle, so he is slightly above Beerus. Jiren is probably more than slightly above Belmod, if th is is the case.

I think it's very clear Jiren is most certainty not the mortal you are speaking of.

I don't know why people are still treating this as the gospel truth.

How do you know about that? Everyone here is speculating. It's perfectly possible to be or not to be him. Giving the hype he is receiving lately, he is the first to come in mind, but it could be someone from the 4 high-ranked universes.

[LowRyder2005]

I'd say Vegito Blue is at least slightly stronger than Beerus; at most, moderately stronger. Even just going by authorial intent, it doesn't make any sense for Shin's contemplation to be present in the manga if not to give readers a general indication of how strong Vegito is. Moreover, Blue Kaioken Goku was strong enough to briefly intimidate Champa and even make Whis question whether Beerus was worried about being outmatched, and regardless of whether that was ultimately correct, it's important to note that Vegito Blue is much stronger still than that version of Goku.

Goku's new form surpassing Vegito would be a bit weird, but it's certainly not impossible.

I feel the same.

@TheOne: He has more than one point. You can try to justify things in-universe, but statements are inserted through the will of the author and are there for a reason. In the anime Merged Zamas and consequently Vegito's power are agreed to be "unfathomable" by the Kaioshins, and in the manga the East Kaioshin should know Vegito's power if he's able to compare it to something else. Toyotaro's words at the Naples Comicon are most likely a product of him trying not ot overstepping his bounds with something the anime's authors may have not be agreeing with, or leaving a bit of suspense - so to speak - but it's crystal clear that he wanted to wink at the reader and say "yeah, I just did that". I wouldn't go stating it like an undisputable fact; yet, at this point, I'd deem it pretty safe that Toyotaro at least likes to see Vegito above Beerus.

Even leaving that aside, it seems probable that both (anime) Vegito and (anime) Merged Zamas are superior to Beerus, compared to the opposing thesis.

It's not like you're following a hella lot of underlying assumptions, also.

Even if he was never intended to beat Zamasu, the fact that he had to turn blue just fight on par/slightly stronger than him means he has was nowhere near Beerus level

Vegito would be able to get out a lot easier than Goku did, but not by BLOWING THE ATTACK AWAY.

This all logically follows only if you already believe Vegito/Merged Zamas are weaker than Beerus, which is what you'd be trying to prove. It's circular reasoning.
Also, Sidra's energy is never stated to be "a little", but a more vague "some" (or anything from "very little" to "a lot").

I'm sorry if I come across as rude, but Seeing you guys post stuff as if they're fact gets frustrating.

For all intents and purposes, the format of your post made you seem like you're the one trying to state "facts" (which I'm afraid are not facts at all; I mean, most of them are a product of your own gut feelings); the post you were quoting and that apparently rubbed you the wrong way started with a rather diplomatic "I'd say".

db xenoverse 2 profile saids he's stronger than beerus

I don't remember Xenoverse 2 having bios or profiles. Is it something said through the in-game special conversations or just standard internet hearsay?

[Bullza]

If Shin says Super Saiyan Blue Vegito may be stronger than Beerus and Toyotaro says he's not sure who is stronger then it's​ basically saying they're pretty close, they're on the same level even if Vegito does have the slight edge.

Whereas with the mysterious mortal, Whis had no hesitation saying out right that his God of Destruction just plain could not beat him.

So whoever it ends up being it seems likely he'd be above Vegito. I'm expecting it to be Jiren for obvious reasons but it might not be.

I would probably say that Trunks after absorbing the Spirit Bomb was himself above Super Saiyan Blue Vegito and Beerus.

[OLKv3]

[SansrivaaL]

[spoiler][/spoiler]

His fight with Krillin/17 and Gohan in a nutshell.

[Ki Breaker]

It's almost like blue is a form which gives powerups in a random way, sometimes you roll universe buster and other times Krillin pushes back your Kamehamehas

[OLKv3]

[spoiler][/spoiler]

His fight with Krillin/17 and Gohan in a nutshell.

He went all out against Gohan though. He didn't hold back when he went Blue against him

[TheMikado]

[spoiler][/spoiler]

His fight with Krillin/17 and Gohan in a nutshell.

He went all out against Gohan though. He didn't hold back when he went Blue against him

Are we sure though because shouldn't Base Goku be enough to stomp Gohan?

Also love this image lol!

[LowRyder2005]

Let it ascend to its rightful meme status.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

His fight with Krillin/17 and Gohan in a nutshell.

He went all out against Gohan though. He didn't hold back when he went Blue against him

Are we sure though because shouldn't Base Goku be enough to stomp Gohan?

Also love this image lol!

That depends on how strong Gohan got after being re-trained by Piccolo. I'm personally of the opinion that Gohan improved enough to be as strong as Piccolo in base form a.k.a. equal to Goku.

Thus, if he were to go Ultimate with the same kind of boost this power-up originally gave to his weaker-than-Freeza base form on top of this current base power, it'd rival SSB's boost to Goku's power currently.

[TheMikado]

He went all out against Gohan though. He didn't hold back when he went Blue against him

Are we sure though because shouldn't Base Goku be enough to stomp Gohan?

Also love this image lol!

That depends on how strong Gohan got after being re-trained by Piccolo. I'm personally of the opinion that Gohan improved enough to be as strong as Piccolo in base form a.k.a. equal to Goku.

Thus, if he were to go Ultimate with the same kind of boost this power-up originally gave to his weaker-than-Freeza base form on top of this current base power, it'd rival SSB's boost to Goku's power currently.

Right so how in the hell did Base Gohan and Piccolo possibly get way stronger than even SSJ3 Gotenks following the events of RoF???

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Are we sure though because shouldn't Base Goku be enough to stomp Gohan?

Also love this image lol!

That depends on how strong Gohan got after being re-trained by Piccolo. I'm personally of the opinion that Gohan improved enough to be as strong as Piccolo in base form a.k.a. equal to Goku.

Thus, if he were to go Ultimate with the same kind of boost this power-up originally gave to his weaker-than-Freeza base form on top of this current base power, it'd rival SSB's boost to Goku's power currently.

Right so how in the hell did Base Gohan and Piccolo possibly get way stronger than even SSJ3 Gotenks following the events of RoF???

Both trained A LOT after said events, Piccolo even more than Gohan. Yeah yeah, "no precedence" and "makes no sense", but that's what we're working with right now, alright?

I estimated that Piccolo could've gotten as much as 8 times stronger than his original power and still be no match for Buu in raw power during the Universe 6/7 Tournament. That was about 6-8 months of intensive training, especially since he was sparring with Gohan for a lot of that time. Two more boosts like that up until the Universal Survival Arc, and one could make the case that Piccolo could indeed have reached base Goku's level.

Gohan himself could've gotten as much as 4 times stronger and still be below his original Ultimate power, assuming he was comparable to Gotenks in similar forms during RoF. Thus, he only has to make up the difference of a few hundred. His body was trained relatively well up until that point, but his mind wasn't. Once that mental barrier was gone, you could make the case that his latent potential allowed him to easily make the gains he would've made if he had constantly trained and honed his Ultimate power up until that point. If we're allowed to have Ultimate Gohan go from beating out Super Buu to trading blows with SSB Goku, I think this little wrinkle to justify the former is an acceptable logic break.

Like I said above, there's no precedence or logic to these, but that's what we're working with.

[TheMikado]

That depends on how strong Gohan got after being re-trained by Piccolo. I'm personally of the opinion that Gohan improved enough to be as strong as Piccolo in base form a.k.a. equal to Goku.

Thus, if he were to go Ultimate with the same kind of boost this power-up originally gave to his weaker-than-Freeza base form on top of this current base power, it'd rival SSB's boost to Goku's power currently.

Right so how in the hell did Base Gohan and Piccolo possibly get way stronger than even SSJ3 Gotenks following the events of RoF???

Both trained A LOT after said events, Piccolo even more than Gohan. Yeah yeah, "no precedence" and "makes no sense", but that's what we're working with right now, alright?

I estimated that Piccolo could've gotten as much as 8 times stronger than his original power and still be no match for Buu in raw power during the Universe 6/7 Tournament. That was about 6-8 months of intensive training, especially since he was sparring with Gohan for a lot of that time. Two more boosts like that up until the Universal Survival Arc, and one could make the case that Piccolo could indeed have reached base Goku's level.

Gohan himself could've gotten as much as 4 times stronger and still be below his original Ultimate power, assuming he was comparable to Gotenks in similar forms during RoF. Thus, he only has to make up the difference of a few hundred. His body was trained relatively well up until that point, but his mind wasn't. Once that mental barrier was gone, you could make the case that his latent potential allowed him to easily make the gains he would've made if he had constantly trained and honed his Ultimate power up until that point. If we're allowed to have Ultimate Gohan go from beating out Super Buu to trading blows with SSB Goku, I think this little wrinkle to justify the former is an acceptable logic break.

Like I said above, there's no precedence or logic to these, but that's what we're working with.

I'm still not getting how we get there, especially with how Gohan was portrayed in the Future Trunks arc. How does Gohan close the gap with Goku who had to be like 500x stronger in base now after all the training with Whis in that time period without God assistance or RoF?? Goku and Vegeta spent several years collectively just to get there and Gohan does it in a few hours or something.