Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Helios518
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Postby Helios518 » Wed Jan 17, 2018 2:52 pm

PushoverMediaCritic wrote:
TheSaiyanGod wrote:
PushoverMediaCritic wrote:
I'd put Vegeta with his new form above Toppo at the moment, and Dyspo's speed should probably be listed separately from himself. Like this:

1. Jiren
2. Goku
3. Dyspo (speed)
4. Vegeta
5. Toppo
6. Frieza
7. Gohan
8. 17
9. Dyspo


How Dyspo with his speed would overcome Vegeta with his new form, which apparently is Goku SSB KK x20 level (still stronger than at the beginning of the tournament)?

Goku could predict his moves and counterattack using the SSB.
So I think he's just above SSG for now.


Goku being able to counterattack using SSB doesn't mean he's faster than Dyspo, it just means Dyspo's fighting style is predictable. Technically, Dyspo could be the fastest person in the ring, remember that Champa couldn't see his movements and Vados could only just barely see him at top speed. Dyspo's friggin' fast, dude. He's at least at God of Destruction level, in terms of raw speed.


In the ring? I doubt it, Geran’s the fastest in the ring. When UI Goku attacked Geran, Geran already dodged the attack while Dyspo barely had time to notice the attack.
Why I use "Geran" instead of "Jiren"

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Postby PushoverMediaCritic » Wed Jan 17, 2018 3:45 pm

Helios518 wrote:
PushoverMediaCritic wrote:
TheSaiyanGod wrote:
How Dyspo with his speed would overcome Vegeta with his new form, which apparently is Goku SSB KK x20 level (still stronger than at the beginning of the tournament)?

Goku could predict his moves and counterattack using the SSB.
So I think he's just above SSG for now.


Goku being able to counterattack using SSB doesn't mean he's faster than Dyspo, it just means Dyspo's fighting style is predictable. Technically, Dyspo could be the fastest person in the ring, remember that Champa couldn't see his movements and Vados could only just barely see him at top speed. Dyspo's friggin' fast, dude. He's at least at God of Destruction level, in terms of raw speed.


In the ring? I doubt it, Geran’s the fastest in the ring. When UI Goku attacked Geran, Geran already dodged the attack while Dyspo barely had time to notice the attack.


Dyspo's speed comes from his Light Bullet technique, which multiplies his speed 1,000 times over. The downside is that his reaction time can't catch up, so once he's committed to using a move in Light Bullet, he can't change mid-move. The key point there is that Dyspo's reaction time doesn't catch up to his speed, meaning he wouldn't have noticed Goku's kick coming even if he is faster than UI Goku. Goku later grabs both him and Toppo, but Ultra Instinct is all about insane reaction time, so that doesn't prove much speed-wise either.

To be clear, I'm not saying that Dyspo is definitively faster than Jiren, in fact I don't think he is. I am saying that he very well could be, given Vados' statement that she just barely saw him while he was using Light Bullet.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Postby RedHeat » Thu Jan 18, 2018 2:25 am

So apperently in the manga,



Does that mean anything specifcally?
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Postby Bullza » Thu Jan 18, 2018 2:38 am

RedHeat wrote:Does that mean anything specifcally?


I'm not sure. Do Saiyans somehow have better reactions upon transforming?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Postby Helios518 » Thu Jan 18, 2018 6:44 am

Bullza wrote:
RedHeat wrote:Does that mean anything specifcally?


I'm not sure. Do Saiyans somehow have better reactions upon transforming?


Of course they do, otherwise they wouldn’t be able to react against opponents on that level.
Why I use "Geran" instead of "Jiren"

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Postby Bullza » Thu Jan 18, 2018 11:39 am

Helios518 wrote:Of course they do, otherwise they wouldn’t be able to react against opponents on that level.


But even characters like Krillin can react to Goku vs Cell. Piccolo and Gohan were reacting to Goku vs Beerus.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Postby Helios518 » Thu Jan 18, 2018 1:16 pm

Bullza wrote:
Helios518 wrote:Of course they do, otherwise they wouldn’t be able to react against opponents on that level.


But even characters like Krillin can react to Goku vs Cell. Piccolo and Gohan were reacting to Goku vs Beerus.


Usually characters when becoming spectators gain an inconsistent reaction speeds just for the convenience. In BoG, SSJ3 Goku couldn’t even react to Beerus while Piccolo in the same arc, kept track of SSJG/SSJ Goku and less suppressed Beerus. The only way you can see this as making sense in-universe is if you seriously believe BoG Piccolo >>> BoG SSJ3.

There’s also the fact that if transforming doesn’t increase reaction speed, then there would be no way that Saiyans can react to their own speeds in the SSJ forms. It’s like me giving you the ability to move a hundred times faster without changing your reaction speed, you can move but I’m pretty sure you’re going to accidentally hit a wall.
Why I use "Geran" instead of "Jiren"

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Postby Hugo Boss » Thu Jan 18, 2018 2:10 pm

RedHeat wrote:So apperently in the manga,


Does that mean anything specifcally?

She might be faster or even stronger than SS Cabba, but it’s unclear how exactly she did that.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Postby Kenneth La Torre » Thu Jan 18, 2018 5:48 pm

Seems like toppo is going to actaully be at the level of the gods of destruction, and also be an actual god of destruction due to current spoilers. Seems like he doesnt even know whats happening to his body.

I think they are doing this to show how powerful jiren is in conparison to a god of destruction. Idk why they would suddently push toppo to that high tier of power

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Postby Analytical Delusion » Fri Jan 19, 2018 5:48 pm

Just a thought...

In the anime, Goku has been clearly more powerful than Vegeta since the U6 tournament arc, since he has Kaioken Blue up his sleeve. On the other hand, in the manga, Toyotaro has been clear not to put them on separate tiers:

• During the U6 tournament, no Kaioken, and Whis comments that Vegeta was fighting at 1/10 strength vs Hit
• Goku used the SSG->SSB tactic during the tournament, and Vegeta matched it vs Goku Black
• Goku achieved mastered SSB against Zamasu, and Vegeta used it when training with Beerus after the tournament

Now, during the anime, it's possible (and perhaps likely) that Goku's UI and Vegeta's new form are not equal. It's actually interesting, the ending has conflated Vegeta's form with Goku's UI, even though it looks on par with Goku's Kaioken Blue (standard, or x10 or x20, whichever he's using against Jiren right now; presumably x20). The Grand Priest and Whis also called it his limit-breaker form, the same terminology they used to describe UI Goku. It does seem a lot like Trunks's rage transformation in the anime however, while UI appears to be something that will appear in the manga as well. Regardless, at the most, Goku and Vegeta are close in the anime, and at the least, even if they aren't, it's being suggested it's not a massive gap in terms of dialogue/perception.

This is all setting up the manga to finish with Goku and Vegeta being a tier apart at the end of super in the manga, even though they were close all-along. UI Goku will very likely still happen, but Vegeta's transformation might not.

What am I getting at here? Not all that much, but I do think it's interesting, that after seemingly artificially reducing the gap between Goku and Vegeta during the course of the Super Manga, Toyotaro will likely end up with a larger gap between the two than there will be in the anime.

(Of course, if the transformation isn't anime-only, or whatever happens in episode 126 as suggested by the title, occurs in both the anime and the manga, then all this is moot.)

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Postby Bullza » Fri Jan 19, 2018 9:06 pm

Kenneth La Torre wrote:Seems like toppo is going to actaully be at the level of the gods of destruction, and also be an actual god of destruction due to current spoilers. Seems like he doesnt even know whats happening to his body.

I think they are doing this to show how powerful jiren is in conparison to a god of destruction. Idk why they would suddently push toppo to that high tier of power


It'd be useful if he did, it'd make placing some other characters a bit easier. Toppo was supposed to be a God of Destruction in waiting so it looks like it might be about time for it.

Then we might be able to see how other characters compare to that.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Postby supersaiyangodgogeta » Fri Jan 19, 2018 10:43 pm

Toppo is God of Destruction level yet didn't think that he would be able to defeat Goku during the exhibition match. So much for Beerus being thousands of times stronger than SSB like people were claiming.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Postby Kenneth La Torre » Fri Jan 19, 2018 11:15 pm

supersaiyangodgogeta wrote:Toppo is God of Destruction level yet didn't think that he would be able to defeat Goku during the exhibition match. So much for Beerus being thousands of times stronger than SSB like people were claiming.


Toppo isnt god of destruction level, not yet. According to the spoilers. Once he accepts defeat, his body starts going through a change, which based on spoilers, its going to make him a god of destruction.

So toppos original powers are only high ssb level.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Postby supersaiyangodgogeta » Fri Jan 19, 2018 11:33 pm

His non powered up level of strength is Blue level. At this point it seems obvious that the power he was going to use against Kaioken Goku is what's being referred to here. That's what Goku called his true power, not the level of strength he used when he lost to SSB Goku. "Something strange" could just be referring Toppo's body being enveloped in the same aura that he showed against Goku.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Postby Kenneth La Torre » Fri Jan 19, 2018 11:37 pm

supersaiyangodgogeta wrote:His non powered up level of strength is Blue level. At this point it seems obvious that the power he was going to use against Kaioken Goku is what's being referred to here. That's what Goku called his true power, not the level of strength he used when he lost to SSB Goku. "Something strange" could just be referring Toppo's body being enveloped in the same aura that he showed against Goku.


No, not at all. The spoilers reference him bracing for defeat, as in he knew he was done for, and then something starts happening to his body. The spoilers are making it quite clear that this is something toppo is getting now, and its not something he had before.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Postby supersaiyangodgogeta » Fri Jan 19, 2018 11:43 pm

I'm not sure how you're coming to that conclusion. Nowhere does it say that he knows he's done for. It just says that he prepares for the worst as in acknowledging the possibility of himself being defeated. Then "something strange" happens which could just be his body putting out the aura he used against Goku which was stated to be his true power. It's likely just him using his true power in response to almost being eliminated.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Postby Kenneth La Torre » Fri Jan 19, 2018 11:49 pm

supersaiyangodgogeta wrote:I'm not sure how you're coming to that conclusion. Nowhere does it say that he knows he's done for. It just says that he prepares for the worst as in acknowledging the possibility of himself being defeated. Then "something strange" happens which could just be his body putting out the aura he used against Goku which was stated to be his true power. It's likely just him using his true power in response to almost being eliminated.


No. It is obvius that he doesnt know whats going on. Thats bot power he had before. It is him undergoing a change that its gonna take him to god of destruction level. Toppo isnt normally that strong, stop wanking him.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Postby Bullza » Fri Jan 19, 2018 11:55 pm

Well we might not have seen Toppo's full power even aside from what's going to happen to his body.

When he fought Super Saiyan/Blue Goku he was suppressed and then started powering up with the red aura when Goku started to use the Kaioken. He hasn't powered up like that in the anime. So whether he does that prior to his body changing we'll have to see.

In the manga Toppo had the aura of a God. He never did that in the anime so perhaps it'll be tied to that.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Postby supersaiyangodgogeta » Sat Jan 20, 2018 12:05 am

Nowhere does the preview state or imply that Toppo doesn't know what's going on, nor does it state that Toppo is using power that he didn't have prior. And I'm not seeing the problem when Toppo himself is a god candidate, which means by definition he's already suitable for the position.

So he would have strength entering into that realm, otherwise he wouldn't be a candidate. Just like Complete SSB Vegeta was stated to be strong enough to be a god candidate. I'm not making any definitive claims, but the text simply isn't implying what you say it does.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Postby Kenneth La Torre » Sat Jan 20, 2018 12:09 am

Bullza wrote:Well we might not have seen Toppo's full power even aside from what's going to happen to his body.

When he fought Super Saiyan/Blue Goku he was suppressed and then started powering up with the red aura when Goku started to use the Kaioken. He hasn't powered up like that in the anime. So whether he does that prior to his body changing we'll have to see.

In the manga Toppo had the aura of a God. He never did that in the anime so perhaps it'll be tied to that.


We never saw toppos full power, but it definitely wasnt on god of destruction level. I'm interested on how he will obtain said power.

And i agree with you that it will help us see where characters stand if toppo does reach G.o.D levels of power.


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