Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Dreamer]

When Whis made the statement confirming about Jiren is the one who reached the state of God Of Destruction, he was referring to him surpassing Belmod and him only. We still have no idea about the rest of the God Of Destruction would fair/stack against MUI Goku.

[Kenneth La Torre]

To steer things away from that particular discussion, if I may, I've been thinking about BASE FORMS AGAIN!

That's right, the OTHER almighty and all-consuming debate!

I was thinking....... For the folks who aren't privy to really strong base forms, would the idea that "base" Goku and Freeza are equivalent, and Freeza has a "100% state" that isn't bulked up that's equal to Goku's Super Saiyan form, be a good enough compromise for some folks?

I base this general idea off of a few tidbits from the anime. Namely, how Freeza told Frost there was a way to use that 100% power state where he bulks up immensely without actually needing to bulk up, as well as how Goku and Freeza performed against Jiren in the last episode of DBS. It seems that Goku and Freeza powered up from their regular base forms into "100% power" of their next strongest forms, and I think it'd help alleviate at least some of the issues.

We can lowball Goku's base form a little bit but still place him immensely high given how he measures up to Freeza; making different forms occupying similar power niches relatively equivalent to one another seems to be a common trend in the Universal Survival Arc and greatly simplifies things. SSB and True Golden Freeza are equal, the base Saiyans are equal, etc.; I feel that the same might also be true of Super Saiyan and 100% Final Form Freeza.

Also, it could be possible that freeza could be ssg level in base of fully healed. For some reason he seemed to have that level of power in the TOP, do to how he faired against dyspo.

[Bullza]

He can't be as strong as Super Saiyan God too many things contradict it besides how strong would that make the 100% Frieza that he transformed into before eliminating Frost?

He'd be ever stronger than Super Saiyan God at that point.

[Kenneth La Torre]

He can't be as strong as Super Saiyan God too many things contradict it besides how strong would that make the 100% Frieza that he transformed into before eliminating Frost?

He'd be ever stronger than Super Saiyan God at that point.

I dont want to believe it, but its possible. He did perform the same against dyspo as ssg goku did, which was that they could keep up, but dyspo still overwhelmed them woth speed.

But trowing that aside, yes i agree. At best i place 100% base form freeza at ssj goku (ToP) level.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

He can't be as strong as Super Saiyan God too many things contradict it besides how strong would that make the 100% Frieza that he transformed into before eliminating Frost?

He'd be ever stronger than Super Saiyan God at that point.

I dont want to believe it, but its possible. He did perform the same against dyspo as ssg goku did, which was that they could keep up, but dyspo still overwhelmed them woth speed.

But trowing that aside, yes i agree. At best i place 100% base form freeza at ssj goku (ToP) level.

I don't know..... Freeza tends to sandbag a lot; he can take hits VERY WELL and bounce back quickly.

Not to mention that Freeza seems to have gotten much more adept in combat in general; focusing his mental concentration in Hell has done a number for his character overall, not just his power.

[Kenneth La Torre]

He can't be as strong as Super Saiyan God too many things contradict it besides how strong would that make the 100% Frieza that he transformed into before eliminating Frost?

He'd be ever stronger than Super Saiyan God at that point.

I dont want to believe it, but its possible. He did perform the same against dyspo as ssg goku did, which was that they could keep up, but dyspo still overwhelmed them woth speed.

But trowing that aside, yes i agree. At best i place 100% base form freeza at ssj goku (ToP) level.

I don't know..... Freeza tends to sandbag a lot; he can take hits VERY WELL and bounce back quickly.

Not to mention that Freeza seems to have gotten much more adept in combat in general; focusing his mental concentration in Hell has done a number for his character overall, not just his power.

Well, you are talking about a guy who took a planet explotiom while unconscious and out of power... and survived. Hes probably one of the only definitions of “tanks” in dragon ball. So i guess him having that durable biology allows him to compete with stronger characters, especially now that his body is on god levels of strength.

[Koitsukai]

Then is not the fandom that has problems because Whis came to that conclusion before any other memeber of the fanbase. It was stated by a character that knows better than anyone what Beerus is made of, that he was surpassed by another hakaishin and concluded that said god is all-in-all above Beerus, if some part of the fandom want to ignore that fact or prefer not to believe it because it doesn't fit with their headcannon or don't really want to accept that characters lie, boast, bluff and have pride, then fine but it happened.
Worst case scenario Belmond just has stronger arms, but the show tries to show that one of the most common demostrations of physical strenght ended up with Belmond winning it. Shirtless Jiren was in a whole other dimension than his dressed self who was already stronger than Belmond, and Goku kicked his ass.

The show is pretty clear, if it tried to be any more clear then it would be spoon-feeding it to us, which is not necessary, we can connect dots unless we don't want to.

No, everything you mentioned is headcannon cause Whis didn't mention Belmound beating Beerus, Whis admitted he didn't even know WHO the god was or which mortal or universe when he finally saw Jiren in the TOP against the Genki Dama. He clearly confessed that what he stated earlier was a "RUMOR." Whis came to no conclusion about Beerus cause he didn't even know who Beerus arm wrestled nor that he lost at arm wrestling. . And no, arm wrestling doesn't dictate strength hence why Beerus stated so and made sure to let everyone know he didn't lose in combat.

It's just bad reading by the fandom and then they want to call TOEI "trolls" when they feel their headcannon's aren't fulfilled.

The rumor was that there was a ningen stronger than it's hakaishin(rumor confirmed to be true in the ToP), what was not a rumor is the fact that Belmond and Beerus had a strenght competition and Belmond won. Whis knew who Beerus faced in that match, he clearly stated that SAID HAKAISHIN (weaker than a ningen from his universe) WAS STRONGER THAN BEERUS, so yes, he knew which hakaishin he was talking about, I can't believe you are questioning that, to be even more clear Whis should've said his first and last name and his social security number. That match happened and Whis knew who took part in it, i'm sorry but it did.
And yes, arm-wrestling does dictate some form of strenght, it doesn't show who could win in a fight but it sure does tell who has stronger arms. And Belmond has stronger arms than Beerus, not even Beerus denied that.

[Miracles]

Then is not the fandom that has problems because Whis came to that conclusion before any other memeber of the fanbase. It was stated by a character that knows better than anyone what Beerus is made of, that he was surpassed by another hakaishin and concluded that said god is all-in-all above Beerus, if some part of the fandom want to ignore that fact or prefer not to believe it because it doesn't fit with their headcannon or don't really want to accept that characters lie, boast, bluff and have pride, then fine but it happened.
Worst case scenario Belmond just has stronger arms, but the show tries to show that one of the most common demostrations of physical strenght ended up with Belmond winning it. Shirtless Jiren was in a whole other dimension than his dressed self who was already stronger than Belmond, and Goku kicked his ass.

The show is pretty clear, if it tried to be any more clear then it would be spoon-feeding it to us, which is not necessary, we can connect dots unless we don't want to.

No, everything you mentioned is headcannon cause Whis didn't mention Belmound beating Beerus, Whis admitted he didn't even know WHO the god was or which mortal or universe when he finally saw Jiren in the TOP against the Genki Dama. He clearly confessed that what he stated earlier was a "RUMOR." Whis came to no conclusion about Beerus cause he didn't even know who Beerus arm wrestled nor that he lost at arm wrestling. . And no, arm wrestling doesn't dictate strength hence why Beerus stated so and made sure to let everyone know he didn't lose in combat.

It's just bad reading by the fandom and then they want to call TOEI "trolls" when they feel their headcannon's aren't fulfilled.

The rumor was that there was a ningen stronger than it's hakaishin(rumor confirmed to be true in the ToP), what was not a rumor is the fact that Belmond and Beerus had a strenght competition and Belmond won. Whis knew who Beerus faced in that match, he clearly stated that SAID HAKAISHIN (weaker than a ningen from his universe) WAS STRONGER THAN BEERUS, so yes, he knew which hakaishin he was talking about, I can't believe you are questioning that, to be even more clear Whis should've said his first and last name and his social security number. That match happened and Whis knew who took part in it, i'm sorry but it did.
And yes, arm-wrestling does dictate some form of strenght, it doesn't show who could win in a fight but it sure does tell who has stronger arms. And Belmond has stronger arms than Beerus, not even Beerus denied that.

Whis didn't even know the universe, so how is he going to specifically know Belmound is stronger than Beerus?
Yet Beerus had to correct Whis about his whole career and state he "ONLY lost once" at an arm wrestling.
Beerus didn't confirm Whis at all about that particular universe concerning the mortal.

[Analytic]

Not sure if I'm missing something here, but how did Kale tank SSB Goku's Kamehameha but later in a stronger form not even overpower SS2/SSG Goku?

[Miracles]

Not sure if I'm missing something here, but how did Kale tank SSB Goku's Kamehameha but later in a stronger form not even overpower SS2/SSG Goku?

Cause Goku was stated to be stronger after breaking his limits in the Jiren fight by Caulifla when she was fighting him in SSJ2.

[Kenneth La Torre]

Not sure if I'm missing something here, but how did Kale tank SSB Goku's Kamehameha but later in a stronger form not even overpower SS2/SSG Goku?

Holding back, unless you want to believe goku got hundreds of times more powerful after recieving a beating.

[Marlowe89]

Not sure if I'm missing something here, but how did Kale tank SSB Goku's Kamehameha but later in a stronger form not even overpower SS2/SSG Goku?

When he transforms into Super Saiyan Blue against Kale, he apparently mentions in the original dialogue that he's going to use a "little" more of his power against her (he was using Super Saiyan 2 just a moment before) so the presumed explanation is that he was holding back.

It's not particularly great writing, but at least there's a handwave in there somewhere.

[Bullza]

Yeah that explains it. LSSJ Kale would appear to be even more powerful than Super Saiyan 3 Goku.

When Goku fired that Kamehameha at her he only used a little bit more than a Super Saiyan 2 so wasn't good enough. He can hold back enough to match Kamehameha's with Krillin so it ain't too much of an issue.


As for Final Form Frieza again, I'm not sure where you can pin him down. In the movie he was actually weaker than Base Goku. In the Resurrection F saga he fought him evenly but the narration implied Frieza was actually stronger.

Depending how the manga played out they could be even. Them punching each other in the gut could imply they're even.

In the Tournament he beat the tar out of Jimeze who was above Base Gohan and maybe Goku. He turned Golden for SSJ2 Cabba. Said to Aniraza that he was targeting him because he thought he was weaker than God Goku.

.....I dunno I'd say comfortably above Base and comfortably below Super Saiyan 2.

[PFM18]

Not sure if I'm missing something here, but how did Kale tank SSB Goku's Kamehameha but later in a stronger form not even overpower SS2/SSG Goku?

Because Goku was suppressed. This is indicated when he gets up after his fight with Kale with no battle damage. Then Jiren one shots Kale and Goku isn't intimidated/doesn't bat am eye and even challenges Jiren immediately afterwards. Goku even implies that he is only using slightly more power when he pops into SSB compared to the SSJ2 he was previously using. The scene tries to make it clear Goku wasn't trying.

The scene is there to pay an homage to M8 not to show how powerful Kale is.

[JazzMazz]

Yeah that explains it. LSSJ Kale would appear to be even more powerful than Super Saiyan 3 Goku.

When Goku fired that Kamehameha at her he only used a little bit more than a Super Saiyan 2 so wasn't good enough. He can hold back enough to match Kamehameha's with Krillin so it ain't too much of an issue.


As for Final Form Frieza again, I'm not sure where you can pin him down. In the movie he was actually weaker than Base Goku. In the Resurrection F saga he fought him evenly but the narration implied Frieza was actually stronger.

Depending how the manga played out they could be even. Them punching each other in the gut could imply they're even.

In the Tournament he beat the tar out of Jimeze who was above Base Gohan and maybe Goku. He turned Golden for SSJ2 Cabba. Said to Aniraza that he was targeting him because he thought he was weaker than God Goku.

.....I dunno I'd say comfortably above Base and comfortably below Super Saiyan 2.

So um, roughly regular Super Saiyan then.

[spoiler]Also, think its implied he could have beaten Cabba in his regular state, but decided to eliminate him in Golden to not use excess stamina. Or I could be completely mis-reading thes scene and he was probably referring to asking Cabba to jump off so he wouldn't have to waste stamina blowing him off.[/spoiler]

[Hugo Boss]

Omen was the state they couldnt easily achived, was only stated in episode 110 and during the fight with kale and caulifla. Not the completed one, especially since beerus words in 129 made it seem that shining silver like goku is part of having a completed UI.

He was talking about Ultra Instinct as a whole. If anything, Beerus commenting on the completed form’s look is just a hint that he already experienced it either himself or in another person before Goku.

https://mobile.twitter.com/Herms98/stat ... 69/photo/2

It outright says is power that surpasses a god of destruction and god of destructions havent obtained. Shit didnt know that info was so old

The blurb is referring to when Whis explained the state back on episode 18. This seems just one of those extrapolations those previews usually do, because Whis never said the gods cannot reach Ultra Instinct, he just said Beerus hasn’t mastered it, and again Anat said it wasn’t easily attained.

[Zamasu55]

Not sure if I'm missing something here, but how did Kale tank SSB Goku's Kamehameha but later in a stronger form not even overpower SS2/SSG Goku?

It's Super. Nothing makes sense.

[PFM18]

When Whis made the statement confirming about Jiren is the one who reached the state of God Of Destruction, he was referring to him surpassing Belmod and him only. We still have no idea about the rest of the God Of Destruction would fair/stack against MUI Goku.

Well we also know that Belmod is stronger than Beerus so we know Jiren/UI Goku are above those two.

Also sidra seems pretty weak but thats just speculation

[Bullza]

So um, roughly regular Super Saiyan then.

Possibly. Goku was shown as a Super Saiyan when he was going up against Jimeze. He told Gohan that he would have beaten him easily had he turned Super Saiyan.

Frost was said to stand no chance against Frieza and Frost was....maybe low Super Saiyan level.

Yeah maybe Super Saiyan level, I'd think too much higher would be a bit farfetched.

[ZombieVito]

So um, roughly regular Super Saiyan then.

Possibly. Goku was shown as a Super Saiyan when he was going up against Jimeze. He told Gohan that he would have beaten him easily had he turned Super Saiyan.

Frost was said to stand no chance against Frieza and Frost was....maybe low Super Saiyan level.

Yeah maybe Super Saiyan level, I'd think too much higher would be a bit farfetched.

So Freeza was suppressing himself 50 times in RoF?

I can't see it.