Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Bullza]

Hit wasn't really weaker than SSJB without the Time-Skip. He was actually fighting on par with SSJB Goku.

Well for the most part yeah but Goku still had the upper hand in that he was able to put Hit down and force him to use his Time powers at all.

If he didn't use them he'd have likely have been beaten by Goku without him having to use the Kaioken at all.

[LowRyder2005]

In RoF arc, Freeza implied that he could handle Super Saiyan goku without going golden.

It's either a non-objective claim (i.e. an empty boast; Freeza thinking of a suppressed base Goku) or another piece of the puzzle that reinforces the idea the base form seen in ROF was intended to be a de facto stronger boost than Goku's Super Saiyan, at most.

Remember that Super Saiyan was still supposed to make the user at least some tens of times stronger than the base form per the FT arc, and it's pretty out of this world to believe ROF Final Form Freeza was that much stronger than base Goku; they're somewhat evenly matched with Freeza having an edge. (I'm also not completely if he really does, objectively, imply *that* or if he's just relaxed because he's factoring in that he can easily beat him with his Golden form).

That interesting idea, I mean I remember something like that being mentioned by frieeza, but it seems poor performance of gohan, and writters nerfing too much gohan or forgetting how powerfull could he be caused as fans to put base goku/vegeta as strong as even ssg as there was extra claim which was vague but would make sense with portreyal of characters. That remind me Frieeza mentioning buu as benchmark and being impressed with goku beating up buu and only after turning ssb frieeza said that he is even better and suprassed his all expections and that why it is good that he trained himself and managed to unlock new power (golden form). However we know that frieeza has never met buu in person so he has no idea how powerfull he could be(it could be solved if he ever meet him and if he reference goku from rof and compare to buu(at the best), (the worst) says something about being underpowering or overpowering buu to what he thought). We fans of course know so it depends if frieeza was guessing or no and if aim was to show to us or to scale goku to buu in show.

another interesting point is that when goku was shown powering up to ssb for first time, initially he went trough ss and ss2 at least(like ss aura and lightinings cracked a bit later before he turned blue). Frieeza also only become little worried when goku turned blue. Long story short:

Since rof: final form frieeza > ssj2 goku > ssj goku (idk about ss3, or ssg...)

What's most interesting, if anything -- and what goes to further reinforce the notion that they almost surely had no idea of bringing back the regular Super Saiyan at all when ROF was conceived, is that instead of using a simple Super Saiyan, which would theoretically put him above the Final Form Freeza he had fought according to what's established later ("many tens of times"), Goku goes straight for Blue. Almost as if it was the only form that would grant him a power-up of the sort. And right before claiming like we all know, that he was "a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God".

(Not like there are retcons there or anywhere, y'know?)

[Marlowe89]

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Ahh, there we are. Much appreciated.

He was actually fighting on par with SSJB Goku.

Not really. At the beginning of Episode 39, Hit wasn't using Time-Skip and SSB Goku was definitely starting to get the upper hand before the former acknowledged that he was at his limit. Afterwards, Hit opted to use the Time-Skip and was still at a disadvantage; it wasn't until he improved its duration that he was able to turn the tables again. Vegeta also commented that his punches felt light before he was eventually worn down by repeated attacks.

The anime's U6 arc Hit is more or less equivalent to a fully-powered Hit in the manga.

[Noah]

This probably was asked before in this thread, but with Goku using SSJ God again we can conclude that both he and Vegeta were not that strong in Base in the Champa arc to the current arc?

[Lord Beerus]

He was actually fighting on par with SSJB Goku.

Not really. At the beginning of Episode 39, Hit wasn't using Time-Skip and SSB Goku was definitely starting to get the upper hand before the former acknowledged that he was at his limit. Afterwards, Hit opted to use the Time-Skip and was still at a disadvantage; it wasn't until he improved its duration that he was able to turn the tables again. Vegeta also commented that his punches felt light before he was eventually worn down by repeated attacks.

The anime's U6 arc Hit is more or less equivalent to a fully-powered Hit in the manga.

I don't think Hit in the manga would have been able to withstand Goku using SSJB with Kaioken at tenfold stacked on top. Hit in the anime could.

[ssbgoku]

This probably was asked before in this thread, but with Goku using SSJ God again we can conclude that both he and Vegeta were not that strong in Base in the Champa arc to the current arc?

Yes and to be blant honest, I believe there only clear and rather strong indication where base goku is when pusched to the limit is when he fights base gohan before tournament of power in recruitment episodes. Now puting base gohan somewhere can be tricky but based the best scenario would be him being at buu arc Ultimate gohan level, but then he would have to get at least 400 times stronger in one day or so... no that is sound impossible but still crazy.

[Marlowe89]

I don't think Hit in the manga would have been able to withstand Goku using SSJB with Kaioken at tenfold stacked on top. Hit in the anime could.

That's because Time-Skip's mechanics are completely different in both mediums. Not only does it continue to function properly against stronger opponents in the anime, Hit also managed to increase its duration which allowed him to continue fighting on par with Goku. He couldn't do any of that in the manga.

[Helios518]

I don't think Hit in the manga would have been able to withstand Goku using SSJB with Kaioken at tenfold stacked on top. Hit in the anime could.

That's because Time-Skip's mechanics are completely different in both mediums. Not only does it continue to function properly against stronger opponents in the anime, Hit also managed to increase its duration which allowed him to continue fighting on par with Goku. He couldn't do any of that in the manga.

I don't think this is function properly. https://youtu.be/-2ejNt9jBG8?t=6m2s

[TheSaiyanGod]

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Ahh, there we are. Much appreciated.

He was actually fighting on par with SSJB Goku.

Not really. At the beginning of Episode 39, Hit wasn't using Time-Skip and SSB Goku was definitely starting to get the upper hand before the former acknowledged that he was at his limit. Afterwards, Hit opted to use the Time-Skip and was still at a disadvantage; it wasn't until he improved its duration that he was able to turn the tables again. Vegeta also commented that his punches felt light before he was eventually worn down by repeated attacks.

The anime's U6 arc Hit is more or less equivalent to a fully-powered Hit in the manga.

Only by adding, Hitto's speed was also not surprising in the eyes of an SSB.
Vegeta also stated that he was able to follow his movements, but did not see the attacks (because of Tokitobashi).

[spoiler][/spoiler]

So he is not very strong. Can overcome your opponents more easily because of lack of knowledge and peculiar techniques

[ChiefWamsutta]

SSG = full SSG power
SBG = partial SSG power + normal ki (because it can be felt)
Base = normal ki

The two base theory is needed because of discrepancies between Goku and Vegeta's strong and weak bases.

There's plenty of evidence of a weak base:

Piccolo vs. Frost compared to Base Goku vs. Frost (Goku in the manga says that Frost is weak
Cabba vs. Vegeta (how did a Base Saiyan w/o SS get so strong without special training with Whis or Vados?)
Goku vs. Future Trunks (who was confirmed by the manga to only be stronger than SS2 Gohan)
Goku vs. Slim Buu
Android 18 vs. Tupper compared to Base Goku vs. Tupper

And a strong base:

Base Vegeta vs. Tagoma
Base Goku vs. RoF Final Form Frieza
Base Goku vs. Hit
Base Goku vs. Beerus in Monaka costume
Base Copy Vegeta vs. SS3 Gotenks
Base Goku's minor exchange with Final Form Frieza after resurrection
? Base Goku vs. Jiren (from the opening which has recycled content)

The manga already has a form of the two base theory where SSG simply replaces SBG. In the anime, SBG exists, and it represents partial SSG power.

As of Episode 104, this is what I believe is the best course for action when it comes to the DBSuper anime.

Scenario A: If we see Goku using Super Saiyan God, then we say, "Oh, he was using all of the god power he absorbed."

Scenario B: If we see Goku using his Base form evenly paced against a very strong enemy, then we say, "Oh, he was using only part of the god power he absorbed, resulting in SBG."

Scenario C: If we see Goku using his Base form evenly paced against a weak enemy, then we say, "Oh, he was not using any of the god power he absorbed, only mortal ki."

Scenario D: If we see Goku using SS1/SS2/SS3 against an enemy, then we say, "Oh, he is using his Super Saiyan forms stacked on top of his mortal Base."

Scenario E: If we see Goku using Super Saiyan Blue against an enemy, then we say, "Oh, he is using Super Saiyan stacked on top of his god power he absorbed."

Scenario F: If we see Goku using Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken against an enemy, then we say, "Oh, he is using Kaioken stacked on top of his Super Saiyan with the god power he absorbed."

Considering the show has been inconsistent with some things, the only constant is that we have seen Scenarios A - F in the DBSuper anime. The instances of Scenario B and Scenario C are what confuses things. I believe with all the information from the show, this is the most logical, in-universe way to explain things. It streamlines the confusion, and allows for the show to represent instances of SSG, SBG, and Base appearing.

[Draconic]

SSG = full SSG power
SBG = partial SSG power + normal ki (because it can be felt)
Base = normal ki

The two base theory is needed because of discrepancies between Goku and Vegeta's strong and weak bases.

There's plenty of evidence of a weak base:

Piccolo vs. Frost compared to Base Goku vs. Frost (Goku in the manga says that Frost is weak
Cabba vs. Vegeta (how did a Base Saiyan w/o SS get so strong without special training with Whis or Vados?)
Goku vs. Future Trunks (who was confirmed by the manga to only be stronger than SS2 Gohan)
Goku vs. Slim Buu
Android 18 vs. Tupper compared to Base Goku vs. Tupper

And a strong base:

Base Vegeta vs. Tagoma
Base Goku vs. RoF Final Form Frieza
Base Goku vs. Hit
Base Goku vs. Beerus in Monaka costume
Base Copy Vegeta vs. SS3 Gotenks
Base Goku's minor exchange with Final Form Frieza after resurrection
? Base Goku vs. Jiren (from the opening which has recycled content)

The manga already has a form of the two base theory where SSG simply replaces SBG. In the anime, SBG exists, and it represents partial SSG power.

As of Episode 104, this is what I believe is the best course for action when it comes to the DBSuper anime.

Scenario A: If we see Goku using Super Saiyan God, then we say, "Oh, he was using all of the god power he absorbed."

Scenario B: If we see Goku using his Base form evenly paced against a very strong enemy, then we say, "Oh, he was using only part of the god power he absorbed, resulting in SBG."

Scenario C: If we see Goku using his Base form evenly paced against a weak enemy, then we say, "Oh, he was not using any of the god power he absorbed, only mortal ki."

Scenario D: If we see Goku using SS1/SS2/SS3 against an enemy, then we say, "Oh, he is using his Super Saiyan forms stacked on top of his mortal Base."

Scenario E: If we see Goku using Super Saiyan Blue against an enemy, then we say, "Oh, he is using Super Saiyan stacked on top of his god power he absorbed."

Scenario F: If we see Goku using Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken against an enemy, then we say, "Oh, he is using Kaioken stacked on top of his Super Saiyan with the god power he absorbed."

Considering the show has been inconsistent with some things, the only constant is that we have seen Scenarios A - F in the DBSuper anime. The instances of Scenario B and Scenario C are what confuses things. I believe with all the information from the show, this is the most logical, in-universe way to explain things. It streamlines the confusion, and allows for the show to represent instances of SSG, SBG, and Base appearing.

This is how I head-canon this myself.

[Miracles]

I don't think Hit in the manga would have been able to withstand Goku using SSJB with Kaioken at tenfold stacked on top. Hit in the anime could.

That's because Time-Skip's mechanics are completely different in both mediums. Not only does it continue to function properly against stronger opponents in the anime, Hit also managed to increase its duration which allowed him to continue fighting on par with Goku. He couldn't do any of that in the manga.

Incorrect. In both continuities Hit's time skip does not work on stronger foes but equal to or lesser. Not only did we see this when Goku used Kaioken Blue but in episode 39 too when Hit's time skip of 0.1 seconds didn't fully connect on Blue. Goku Interrupting Hit's punch during time skip by gut checking Hit and only grazing Goku's face. Hit's attacks were not fully connecting on Blue Goku. Before Blue, all Goku could do was react after Hit's time skip, with Blue Goku was reacting during.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I don't think Hit in the manga would have been able to withstand Goku using SSJB with Kaioken at tenfold stacked on top. Hit in the anime could.

That's because Time-Skip's mechanics are completely different in both mediums. Not only does it continue to function properly against stronger opponents in the anime, Hit also managed to increase its duration which allowed him to continue fighting on par with Goku. He couldn't do any of that in the manga.

Incorrect. In both continuities Hit's time skip does not work on stronger foes but equal to or lesser. Not only did we see this when Goku used Kaioken Blue but in episode 39 too when Hit's time skip of 0.1 seconds didn't fully connect on Blue. Goku Interrupting Hit's punch during time skip by gut checking Hit and only grazing Goku's face. Hit's attacks were not full connecting on Blue Goku. Before all Goku could do was react after Hit's time skip, with Blue Goku was reacting during.

Okay then, so why did Hit's Time-Skip work on Goku after he used SSB with Kaio-ken x10? And why is it SSB Vegeta did so poorly against Hit, when base Goku did so much better? The in-show explanation is that Goku predicted Hit's movements and countered them right before the Time-Skip could connect, so what's your excuse?

The subs have it say that Hit increased his Time-Skip even further beyond 0.5 seconds, and thus why he managed to land blows on Goku after he powered up with Kaio-ken.

If it was purely about power in the anime, Hit would've lost to Vegeta since SSB doesn't drain stamina like an out-of-shape fat guy running a sprint in the anime compared to the manga.

[Almighty Majin]

So according to Goku, Hit got stronger again. Not sure how much stronger though, but it's implied to be enough to rival at least SSJB or perhaps higher.

I personally think that the U6 Saiyans have weaker base forms than the U7 Saiyans due to not improving as much (considering that Goku and Vegeta had to go through the whole Zamasu stuff). This easily explains as to why Freeza can out perform base Caulifla in my opinion.

I'll also mention my view on the problem of Gohan in DBS pre-ToP. It can be seen that Toriyama had no intentions to use Gohan after RoF until the ToP which messes things up since Toei decided to add scenes of Gohan training with Piccolo and becoming strong again. The purpose of Gohan vs Goku in that interlude arc was to showcase Gohan's improvement most likely for the sake of fanservice. This becomes a massive problem when Toriyama actually decides to make him relevant in the story again and he is suddenly portrayed as rusty again (I say rusty instead of weak since they seem to over emphasize it and it makes it look like Gohan's power atrophied much quicker in 4 years than it did in 7 before....).

Outline: Gohan only appears in RoF and is super rusty. He doesn't appear again until ToP and is training again.
Anime: Gohan improves throughout DBS but has mental barriers like Krillin or something like that.

I think it's best to chalk that up as an inconsistency.

[Lord Beerus]

I don't think Hit in the manga would have been able to withstand Goku using SSJB with Kaioken at tenfold stacked on top. Hit in the anime could.

That's because Time-Skip's mechanics are completely different in both mediums. Not only does it continue to function properly against stronger opponents in the anime, Hit also managed to increase its duration which allowed him to continue fighting on par with Goku. He couldn't do any of that in the manga.

I know that. I meant that, it was clear in the manga that SSJB Goku could have seriously decimated Hit even when his he powered up to his max. In the anime, even when Hit increasing his Time Skip to it's max (at hat time) and Goku countered it with the Kaioken tenfold, Hit was able to withstand an immense assault from Goku, which even included taking a Kamehameha directly and still having enough energy and stamina to fight SSJB/KK Goku. In the manga, Hit was shitting his pants when Goku went SSJB and even dodged a Kamehameha from SSJB Goku. So not even taking the Time-Skip into consideration, Hit is very much on par with SSJB Goku in the anime.

[Noah]

One might explain to me better, but how Hit defeated Dyspo?

He improved his Time-Skip you just lured Dyspo in believing he was using when he was not?

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

One might explain to me better, but how Hit defeated Dyspo?

He improved his Time-Skip you just lured Dyspo in believing he was using when he was not?

Yeah. Hit fakes Dyspo out by making bodily movements like one technique, only to utilize a different one that completely takes Dyspo by surprise.

[Marlowe89]

So not even taking the Time-Skip into consideration, Hit is very much on par with SSJB Goku in the anime.

The problem is that you're extrapolating this conclusion from character reactions rather than what the dialogue was very clear in expressing. SSB Goku was flat-out winning against Hit with or without Time-Skip, and even after Hit "pretended" to power up, the characters specifically noted that he didn't actually power up; he just advanced the duration of his Time-Skip instead, which, once again, allowed him to fight on par with Kaioken Goku. They were constantly one-upping each other with Hit repeatedly increasing the limits of the Time-Skip ability and Goku repeatedly multiplying his strength/speed as a counter. That's it.

Therefore, Hit's level of strength at the end of the match was exactly the same as it was at the start, e.g. weaker than SSB Goku/Vegeta.

[TheSaiyanGod]

How strong was Goku to stand for Time Skip of Hitto? He said that this technique no longer works on him, and Goku then broke his dimension only with SSB.

This technique worked against Goku SSB Kaioken

[spoiler][/spoiler]

I don't think Hit in the manga would have been able to withstand Goku using SSJB with Kaioken at tenfold stacked on top. Hit in the anime could.

That's because Time-Skip's mechanics are completely different in both mediums. Not only does it continue to function properly against stronger opponents in the anime, Hit also managed to increase its duration which allowed him to continue fighting on par with Goku. He couldn't do any of that in the manga.

I know that. I meant that, it was clear in the manga that SSJB Goku could have seriously decimated Hit even when his he powered up to his max. In the anime, even when Hit increasing his Time Skip to it's max (at hat time) and Goku countered it with the Kaioken tenfold, Hit was able to withstand an immense assault from Goku, which even included taking a Kamehameha directly and still having enough energy and stamina to fight SSJB/KK Goku. In the manga, Hit was shitting his pants when Goku went SSJB and even dodged a Kamehameha from SSJB Goku. So not even taking the Time-Skip into consideration, Hit is very much on par with SSJB Goku in the anime.

Hitto did not change punches with Goku SSB Kaioken.

He only used the Time Skip once and managed to stop it, but stayed on the ground with only 1 stroke

[ChiefWamsutta]

SSG = full SSG power
SBG = partial SSG power + normal ki (because it can be felt)
Base = normal ki

The two base theory is needed because of discrepancies between Goku and Vegeta's strong and weak bases.

There's plenty of evidence of a weak base:

Piccolo vs. Frost compared to Base Goku vs. Frost (Goku in the manga says that Frost is weak
Cabba vs. Vegeta (how did a Base Saiyan w/o SS get so strong without special training with Whis or Vados?)
Goku vs. Future Trunks (who was confirmed by the manga to only be stronger than SS2 Gohan)
Goku vs. Slim Buu
Android 18 vs. Tupper compared to Base Goku vs. Tupper

And a strong base:

Base Vegeta vs. Tagoma
Base Goku vs. RoF Final Form Frieza
Base Goku vs. Hit
Base Goku vs. Beerus in Monaka costume
Base Copy Vegeta vs. SS3 Gotenks
Base Goku's minor exchange with Final Form Frieza after resurrection
? Base Goku vs. Jiren (from the opening which has recycled content)

The manga already has a form of the two base theory where SSG simply replaces SBG. In the anime, SBG exists, and it represents partial SSG power.

As of Episode 104, this is what I believe is the best course for action when it comes to the DBSuper anime.

Scenario A: If we see Goku using Super Saiyan God, then we say, "Oh, he was using all of the god power he absorbed."

Scenario B: If we see Goku using his Base form evenly paced against a very strong enemy, then we say, "Oh, he was using only part of the god power he absorbed, resulting in SBG."

Scenario C: If we see Goku using his Base form evenly paced against a weak enemy, then we say, "Oh, he was not using any of the god power he absorbed, only mortal ki."

Scenario D: If we see Goku using SS1/SS2/SS3 against an enemy, then we say, "Oh, he is using his Super Saiyan forms stacked on top of his mortal Base."

Scenario E: If we see Goku using Super Saiyan Blue against an enemy, then we say, "Oh, he is using Super Saiyan stacked on top of his god power he absorbed."

Scenario F: If we see Goku using Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken against an enemy, then we say, "Oh, he is using Kaioken stacked on top of his Super Saiyan with the god power he absorbed."

Considering the show has been inconsistent with some things, the only constant is that we have seen Scenarios A - F in the DBSuper anime. The instances of Scenario B and Scenario C are what confuses things. I believe with all the information from the show, this is the most logical, in-universe way to explain things. It streamlines the confusion, and allows for the show to represent instances of SSG, SBG, and Base appearing.

This is how I head-canon this myself.

Yeah, for people who need consistency in DBS I believe this is the perfect headcanon. I feel like it solves all the problems created by out-of-universe production and direction.