Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[RecolorSaiyan]

Goku and Vegeta were stated to get a rivalry boost.

by the same guy who said the Potara fusion was permanent.

Also, Vegetto having a Rivalry Bonus doesn't mean Kefla doesn't get a different, even greater, Bonus due their relationship

Thats your headcanon that they got a greater boost to try and justify it. Nothing was ever stated as such.
It always amazes me how many hurdles people will jump through to make sense of bs in super rather than just accepting that its incoherent and illogical

[RandomGuy96]

So where do we all stand on Zamasu again?

I stand by what I've said before in that he is at best Super Saiyan 2 level. He lost against Super Saiyan 2 Goku though he did say he was distracted at the time and could have done better but then he did also lose the uppercase against Super Saiyan 2 Trunks and would have died if not for his immorality.

On a side note in the manga they did say he was weaker than Trunks.

Weaker than SS1 Goku, because Goku powers down to that level to handle him in the manga (instead of just using 0.1% of SSB's power as supposedly happens all the time in the anime). But not too much weaker than SS1 Goku, because he can still wound him with his blows when Goku is immobilized. If SS1 Goku is a 10, I'd say he's maybe an 8, or a 9 if I'm generous.

I think him being that strong is more or less a fact of Toriyama's outline too. Fused Zamasu is supposed to be (in the grand scheme) negligibly stronger than SSR Black, because two (full-power?) SSBs are "more than enough" to handle him. Seeing as how even Kibitoshin is stated to be massively stronger than Kaioshin alone, Zamasu must be far weaker relative to Black than Kibito was to Kaioshin (and we know from the guidebooks that Kibito is comparable to base Gohan while Kaioshin can survive blows from Buu, scare Piccolo with his ki, and paralyze a SS2, so the latter is dozens of times stronger than the former). Closer to Goku's hypothetical "I can't win if 1,000 becomes 1,001!" fusion with Mr. Satan.

[Green]

Goku and Vegeta were stated to get a rivalry boost.

by the same guy who said the Potara fusion was permanent.

Also, Vegetto having a Rivalry Bonus doesn't mean Kefla doesn't get a different, even greater, Bonus due their relationship

Thats your headcanon that they got a greater boost to try and justify it. Nothing was ever stated as such.
It always amazes me how many hurdles people will jump through to make sense of bs in super rather than just accepting that its incoherent and illogical

Honestly, the lesbian boost theory is rather innocent compared to others.

[Miracles]

.....yeah Belmod did say that and it is well known the verbatim's direct translation is "a bit." You still disregarded everything else. You're just being stubborn dude.

No Belmound did not...


Goku said he let out even more power in the preview and the episode.



As for the rest of your questions like Hit still being stated to be U6 ace or Goku telling them to get stronger so we could have a real fight by no means define Goku was holding back in blue. We know Goku can use KK. This is why I said you are reaching with sayings that prove nothing of Goku holding back against Kale in blue alone.

The direct translation is literally "a bit more power." The way Goku went SSB and the power it presented was treated differently from Belmod and everyone else from what we saw from Goku in 100. If Kale was stronger than SSB, she would be the ace of Universe 6 and not HIt. Period. She isn't, and that is also reflected by Goku commenting that the pair of them couldn't give him a real fight until they got stronger. So unless that arbitrarily meant "Yeah get stronger so I can use Kaioken!" then Goku was clearly holding back. He didn't consider it a real right because he didn't need to take them seriously. (was suppressed) You didn't even address the rest of the evidence. It is clear you aren't interested in being objective about this.

I addressed all your non evidence, your false translation claims and your false Belmound statement about Goku finally using full power Blue when he never stated such a thing. He only said he finally showed Blue against Jiren. Goku telling the girls we will have our real fight later by NO MEANS gives us a direct comparison of Kale and Blue Goku. We know Goku is stronger than Kale cause he has KK Blue. But that real fight statement in no way specifically points out that Goku was holding back IN BLUE. Hit being U6 ace has nothing to do with whether or not Goku was holding back in blue against Kale. Your making claims that has nothing to do with the situation backing you up. You need a direct statement of one holding back. That's being objective.

[RecolorSaiyan]

by the same guy who said the Potara fusion was permanent.

Also, Vegetto having a Rivalry Bonus doesn't mean Kefla doesn't get a different, even greater, Bonus due their relationship

Thats your headcanon that they got a greater boost to try and justify it. Nothing was ever stated as such.
It always amazes me how many hurdles people will jump through to make sense of bs in super rather than just accepting that its incoherent and illogical

Honestly, the lesbian boost theory is rather innocent compared to others.

I have a theory: Goku and Krillin potara fusion would be stronger than Goku and Vegeta because goku and krillin are best of friends and grew up as young boys together.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

With regards to Kale, the manga helps confirm my own personal interpretation, that being that Kale's power was rising dramatically fast, which took her opponents by surprise and allowed her to get them despite them being more than capable of taking her down if they went at her with full power.

I had long suspected that this was the case in the anime, but the manga has helped solidify my viewpoint.

In essence, Kale's Berserk form is a state in flux; it starts off stronger than SS2, but quickly builds up if given time. Kale's other green-haired SS forms then are in essence suppression forms of Berserk's potential, capping it off at manageable levels so that she can control that power properly.

[ZombieVito]

With regards to Kale, the manga helps confirm my own personal interpretation, that being that Kale's power was rising dramatically fast, which took her opponents by surprise and allowed her to get them despite them being more than capable of taking her down if they went at her with full power.

I had long suspected that this was the case in the anime, but the manga has helped solidify my viewpoint.

In essence, Kale's Berserk form is a state in flux; it starts off stronger than SS2, but quickly builds up if given time. Kale's other green-haired SS forms then are in essence suppression forms of Berserk's potential, capping it off at manageable levels so that she can control that power properly.

But SS2 Kale was confirmed to be stronger than Berserk though.

On Zamasu, I do think the present one is SS2 tier. He clearly lost because he lost focus.

Future Zamasu can be the same or a tier or so higher.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

With regards to Kale, the manga helps confirm my own personal interpretation, that being that Kale's power was rising dramatically fast, which took her opponents by surprise and allowed her to get them despite them being more than capable of taking her down if they went at her with full power.

I had long suspected that this was the case in the anime, but the manga has helped solidify my viewpoint.

In essence, Kale's Berserk form is a state in flux; it starts off stronger than SS2, but quickly builds up if given time. Kale's other green-haired SS forms then are in essence suppression forms of Berserk's potential, capping it off at manageable levels so that she can control that power properly.

But SS2 Kale was confirmed to be stronger than Berserk though.

On Zamasu, I do think the present one is SS2 tier. He clearly lost because he lost focus.

Future Zamasu can be the same or a tier or so higher.

That's the beautiful thing about being in flux; it's not always the same level of power. Yes, SS2 Kale was indeed stronger than her Berserk state....... AT THE TIME. It's possible that her Berserk form didn't build up to levels that could take on SSG Goku, and so when she controlled that rising power and capped it off as her mutant SS2 form, it stopped short of SSG.

[Miracles]

It comes down to something so objectively simple. Where in the story did it ever state Goku was holding back against Kale in Blue?
Consider the fact they wanted to save energy by not constantly fighting in Blue!
Vegeta, Toppo, Goku and Jiren acknowledged Kales power twice.
Consider that Goku used Blue when he was in a bind throughout the TOP and Kale was one of those times.
The manga has Kale do almost the same thing showing that she is around blue level too.

[CTAkuma]

It comes down to something so objectively simple. Where in the story did it ever state Goku was holding back against Kale in Blue?
Consider the fact they wanted to save energy by not constantly fighting in Blue!
Vegeta, Toppo, Goku and Jiren acknowledged Kales power twice.
Consider that Goku used Blue when he was in a bind throughout the TOP and Kale was one of those times.
The manga has Kale do almost the same thing showing that she is around blue level too.

The big thing that debunks Kale being Blue level is that her "controlled berserker SS", which was stated to be stronger than her "Broli mode", was being contested by a Super Saiyans 2 Goku with Caulifla pushing him to God.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

It comes down to something so objectively simple. Where in the story did it ever state Goku was holding back against Kale in Blue?
Consider the fact they wanted to save energy by not constantly fighting in Blue!
Vegeta, Toppo, Goku and Jiren acknowledged Kales power twice.
Consider that Goku used Blue when he was in a bind throughout the TOP and Kale was one of those times.
The manga has Kale do almost the same thing showing that she is around blue level too.

You know, the two ideas of Kale being at and below SSB-level aren't mutually exclusive.

If we interpret her performances as a result of Berserk's fluctuating power, then both ideas can be satisfied without contradicting one another. In the initial rampage, Berserk Kale built up enough power to get some serious effort (albeit not the FULL extent) out of SSB Goku; later on, however, Berserk Kale didn't last long enough for her power to build up to god-level and thus was stuck somewhat below SSG Goku when she controlled it and made it her SS2 form.

[CTAkuma]

It comes down to something so objectively simple. Where in the story did it ever state Goku was holding back against Kale in Blue?
Consider the fact they wanted to save energy by not constantly fighting in Blue!
Vegeta, Toppo, Goku and Jiren acknowledged Kales power twice.
Consider that Goku used Blue when he was in a bind throughout the TOP and Kale was one of those times.
The manga has Kale do almost the same thing showing that she is around blue level too.

You know, the two ideas of Kale being at and below SSB-level aren't mutually exclusive.

If we interpret her performances as a result of Berserk's fluctuating power, then both ideas can be satisfied without contradicting one another. In the initial rampage, Berserk Kale built up enough power to get some serious effort (albeit not the FULL extent) out of SSB Goku; later on, however, Berserk Kale didn't last long enough for her power to build up to god-level and thus was stuck somewhat below SSG Goku when she controlled it and made it her SS2 form.

Or you could use the most logical answer with that being Goku was supressed in Blue, note that he also had no visible battle damage or bruises from his fight with Kale

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

It comes down to something so objectively simple. Where in the story did it ever state Goku was holding back against Kale in Blue?
Consider the fact they wanted to save energy by not constantly fighting in Blue!
Vegeta, Toppo, Goku and Jiren acknowledged Kales power twice.
Consider that Goku used Blue when he was in a bind throughout the TOP and Kale was one of those times.
The manga has Kale do almost the same thing showing that she is around blue level too.

You know, the two ideas of Kale being at and below SSB-level aren't mutually exclusive.

If we interpret her performances as a result of Berserk's fluctuating power, then both ideas can be satisfied without contradicting one another. In the initial rampage, Berserk Kale built up enough power to get some serious effort (albeit not the FULL extent) out of SSB Goku; later on, however, Berserk Kale didn't last long enough for her power to build up to god-level and thus was stuck somewhat below SSG Goku when she controlled it and made it her SS2 form.

Or you could use the most logical answer with that being Goku was supressed in Blue, note that he also had no visible battle damage or bruises from his fight with Kale

Oh sure. Not disputing that Goku was nowhere near full power.

But I also think Kale was approaching that level much more quickly than Goku expected, and so his suppressed Kamehameha did nothing to the growing power of Berserk Kale; basically, what the manga implied with Berserk Kale's rapidly growing power taking everyone off-guard.

[CTAkuma]

You know, the two ideas of Kale being at and below SSB-level aren't mutually exclusive.

If we interpret her performances as a result of Berserk's fluctuating power, then both ideas can be satisfied without contradicting one another. In the initial rampage, Berserk Kale built up enough power to get some serious effort (albeit not the FULL extent) out of SSB Goku; later on, however, Berserk Kale didn't last long enough for her power to build up to god-level and thus was stuck somewhat below SSG Goku when she controlled it and made it her SS2 form.

Or you could use the most logical answer with that being Goku was supressed in Blue, note that he also had no visible battle damage or bruises from his fight with Kale

Oh sure. Not disputing that Goku was nowhere near full power.

But I also think Kale was approaching that level much more quickly than Goku expected, and so his suppressed Kamehameha did nothing to the growing power of Berserk Kale; basically, what the manga implied with Berserk Kale's rapidly growing power taking everyone off-guard.

Eh i kinda doubt she is near Blue, her more powerful controlled form struggled with SS2 Goku and she was teamed up with Caulifla as well, with them together pushing him to God(Which arguments can be made that he even was supressed in that state, see Goku vs Kefla)

I see her in the SS3 Range possibly, God if you highball, but definetly not blue imo

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Or you could use the most logical answer with that being Goku was supressed in Blue, note that he also had no visible battle damage or bruises from his fight with Kale

Oh sure. Not disputing that Goku was nowhere near full power.

But I also think Kale was approaching that level much more quickly than Goku expected, and so his suppressed Kamehameha did nothing to the growing power of Berserk Kale; basically, what the manga implied with Berserk Kale's rapidly growing power taking everyone off-guard.

Eh i kinda doubt she is near Blue, her more powerful controlled form struggled with SS2 Goku and she was teamed up with Caulifla as well, with them together pushing him to God(Which arguments can be made that he even was supressed in that state, see Goku vs Kefla)

I see her in the SS3 Range possibly, God if you highball, but definetly not blue imo

I think you're still missing my point to an extent.

The reason I think she can be near SSB Goku yet also still be closer to SS2 Goku than SSG Goku later on is a fluctuating power level. The earlier example against Goku was when Berserk Kale was on a very long rampage; comparatively, she wasn't in the state as long when fighting Goku the second state, and so when she controlled that power, it was capped off at a lower level compared to before. At least, that's my own take.

[ZombieVito]

Oh sure. Not disputing that Goku was nowhere near full power.

But I also think Kale was approaching that level much more quickly than Goku expected, and so his suppressed Kamehameha did nothing to the growing power of Berserk Kale; basically, what the manga implied with Berserk Kale's rapidly growing power taking everyone off-guard.

Eh i kinda doubt she is near Blue, her more powerful controlled form struggled with SS2 Goku and she was teamed up with Caulifla as well, with them together pushing him to God(Which arguments can be made that he even was supressed in that state, see Goku vs Kefla)

I see her in the SS3 Range possibly, God if you highball, but definetly not blue imo

I think you're still missing my point to an extent.

The reason I think she can be near SSB Goku yet also still be closer to SS2 Goku than SSG Goku later on is a fluctuating power level. The earlier example against Goku was when Berserk Kale was on a very long rampage; comparatively, she wasn't in the state as long when fighting Goku the second state, and so when she controlled that power, it was capped off at a lower level compared to before. At least, that's my own take.

Your theory is nice but I just didnt get the impression that Kale wasn't at her hightest power in E114. Especially how everyone is shocked by her SS2 form.

[louisascommie]

The real answer kale was interpreted by some writers as above blue and others as not

If the show had a proper show runner that be sort out.

She probably was indented to consistently be above blue espechially now that broly is a thing.

[ssj3kakarot]

It comes down to something so objectively simple. Where in the story did it ever state Goku was holding back against Kale in Blue?
Consider the fact they wanted to save energy by not constantly fighting in Blue!
Vegeta, Toppo, Goku and Jiren acknowledged Kales power twice.
Consider that Goku used Blue when he was in a bind throughout the TOP and Kale was one of those times.
The manga has Kale do almost the same thing showing that she is around blue level too.

Where in the story does it ever state Goku was holding back against Krillin in blue?

When we have multiple fights between Goku and Krillin, and every time Goku is miles ahead of Krillin in much less powerful forms, we can draw some very easy and objective conclusions.

Same thing here with Kale. As a lot of other people are saying, Goku does much better against a more powerful version of Kale just episodes later, literally minutes later. We can than draw a very logical conclusion that Goku was in fact holding back against Kale. An in-story sentence isn't needed for the viewers to make such a simple deduction.

[RecolorSaiyan]

I too believe goku was holding back against the kale but his constant "ssb is about perfect ki control" is one of the dumbest things i've ever seen.

Before episode 104, i could atleast justify it with "oh he just needs more power than ssj3" but then when ssg comes back it shits on that theory.

Imagine if vegeta used ssj2 vs pui pui but held back to power he could output in base, thats how dumb this concept is

[TheOne]

So I was watching Battle of gods again and I couldn’t help but notice something.

When Beerus woke up, he started talking about Frieza and how he’s surprised someone was capable of beating Frieza, especially a Saiyan. Why in the world was Buu not on his radar whatsoever? The power gap between Buu and Frieza was ginormous, yet Whis chose to show him scenes that happened years ago as if nothing happened after that? This really bugs me.


Another thing that bugs me is that Beerus didn’t seem to understand how Goku could beat Frieza until after he transformed. Which is odd seeing as how base Goku could take out Namek Frieza no problem..

This leads me to thinking that everything makes more sense if you skipped cell and Buu arc and went straight to Beerus. Which is stupid. Did this bother anyone else?

This was the starting point of all the power scaling issues for me, and it only went downhill from there. I have to tell myself that Beerus was so powerful at this point that everyone was in the same category of power to him.