Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Miracles]

And Piccolo was more than likely talking about the previous Ultra Instinct. It's kinda hinted and implied. Mainly because this is backed up because Gokou began harnessing better movements and began mastering Ultra Instinct. And this is stated by Dysport and then Toppo states Gokou will grow much stronger. And later he starts to master the attack pattern of Ultra Instinct. And everyone is then surprised why Kefla couldn't hit Gokou. Despite the fact that they saw Gokou vs. Jiren. This could imply her power is enough to make Gokou evolve his Ultra Instinct.

Exactly! Context is what defeats any supposed sentence translation.

[SayianBeyondGod]

But all the same the stamina issue and the fatigued argument still doesn't hold much. It's apparent that Gokou, even if he is fatigued, has more than enough stamina if he's using both his God forms and Kaioken regardless. You don't have to overcomplicate it.

But in the same time he's not at 100% power when using these god forms and he gradually loses more stamina as he goes SSBKK. But again I don't see how your argument correlate to Kefla knocking SSBKK Goku out of his forms when he was losing much more stamina as the fight prolonged. The fact that Vados thinks SSB Goku would be more than enough to be troublesome to Kefla while it took normal kaioken to gain a upper hand may imply Goku is a few times weaker but again it's not relevant to what I was trying to address.

And it for sure doesn't mean Kefla was at full power either. Kefla obviously was suppressed. Mainly because Kefla had this long fight with Super Saiyan Blue Gokou and fights pretty on par with him; then proceeds on to take down Gokou with one kick. Why didn't she just one shot Gokou earlier? Well, she was probably suppressed honestly.

You're repeating arguments, she was being overpowered by SSBKK Goku. She knocked him out of the form because his stamina got even worse in the fight, Beerus claimed that using SSBKK would be bad for his current state and that he had one more shot left right before she kicked him. Your point is becomes more contradictive when she calls Goku a worthy opponent(she won't call him that if she's fighting him while suppressed) and Goku already told her to pump things up in which both powered up. Piccolo also claims SSJ2 Kefla just surpassed fatigue SSBKK so she wouldn''t surpass him prior even in full power. There's literally no arguments you can make of her being suppressed beside headcannon or repeated disproved arguments.

Claiming Kefla stands a chance because he's fatigued is completely illogical. Mainly because Gokou was fatigued even while fighting Jiren for the first time. Gokou spammed Kaioken x 20 numerous times. And the Kaioken technique is known for being very stamina consuming and a huge strain on the body. This would've drained Gokou instantly. And then he goes on to praise a Genkidama and have a session where he pushed against it with not only Kaioken x 10 but Kaioken x 20. Then transforming into Ultra Instinct against Jiren for the first time, he probably couldn't access his full power due to him being fatigued due to him fighting earlier with Kaioken.

Yes but he was more fatigue than when fighting Jiren, he couldn't even go SSBKKx20 against Kefla with Beerus worried about Goku using even normal while not concern about Hoku using SSBKKx10 or x20 against Jiren. Vados and Champa blatantly imply Kefla stood chance due to Goku being fatigue, plain and simple. Goku had not stamina left after the battle with Jiren and had to rely on some energy from final form Freeza. Goku only had a small chance to recover when fighting Caulifa and Kale.

Again you're overcomplicating it all. Plain and simple you don't have to go to these lengths to deny Super Saiyan Kefla being comparable to the Genkidama. Whis was never really directly comparing Kefla and the Genkidama, he instead said Kefla's energy rivals the Genkidama. Plain and simple dude.

Sure as I said there's another translation to it here, in Japanese: "元気玉を浴びた時のパワーに" - the most important part of the translation is の, which indicates possession of the Spirit bomb in which Goku was submerged in or alternatively Goku when he was submerged in the Spirit bomb. This is where the ambiguity lies because both translations can be valid, since the sentence structure of subject-verb-possession can be used in both manner.

Like what me and TheSaiyanGod being saying in this thread, it's possible the Whis statement can be interpreted as Kefla Ki rivalled the Genkidama in a role interpretation even when she's rivalling directly the spirit bomb rather than Goku being bathed.

Once again, the Genkidama was vaguely more powerful than Super Saiyan Blue w/ Kaioken x 20. Mainly because Jiren struggled with it more than he did with Gokou.
Also in Super episode 122, Jiren might've been suppressing himself even more than he did against Gokou for the first time. Mainly because Gokou is more powerful than what he was in the special. Vegeta never really received any zenkai boost or get any stronger until that episode when Jiren manhandles him. But that's my own headcanon. I mean Vegeta's Super Saiyan Blue could very well have been stronger than Super Saiyan Blue Gokou. But that's another discussion for another day.

Agreed that the Genkidama is more powerful than SSBKK at the time, after all Goku resorted to using it and called it his special technique in someway. I think Jiren was more powerful when fighting SSBKK Goku but weaker than UI, base off the fact he sweats when fighting Vegeta or his shocked by his power with Belmod worried. Not to mention Vegeta breached his energy. While Vegeta had no Zenkai he did trained a lot in the time chamber and was still ahead of Goku ever since the end of the Future Trunks arcs. I have a theory that both SSB Goku and Vegeta now rival if not surpass SSBKK Goku from special and prior.

And Piccolo was more than likely talking about the previous Ultra Instinct. It's kinda hinted and implied. Mainly because this is backed up because Gokou began harnessing better movements and began mastering Ultra Instinct. And this is stated by Dysport and then Toppo states Gokou will grow much stronger. And later he starts to master the attack pattern of Ultra Instinct. And everyone is then surprised why Kefla couldn't hit Gokou. Despite the fact that they saw Gokou vs. Jiren. This could imply her power is enough to make Gokou evolve his Ultra Instinct.

But agian the translation implied it was more recent which makes sense as she was overpowered by SSBKK prior. UI Goku only improved in polish movements by Dyspo nor ki or power of any kind. Toppo isn't claiming Goku gotten stronger at 116, he's foreshadowing he's going to get stronger base of the rate he's improving his movements. Even in the epsiode Goku only needed to power up a little to take on Kefla and allowed her to power up more with Gohan claiming it was ignitng Kefla to power up. It shows that Goku is too fatguie to power up complety or he's supressed on purpose which can be argued espeically when after she called his attacks weak, he ignites her aura and started overpowering her to the point where she says "impossible". I don't think he started getting proficent in the offensive UI as Whis would've made a statement about it.

[Amir]

Yes, Toppo was suppressed. He only used his maximum power in the energy dispute against the 17 (at that time, he said he would use all his justice against 17 and raise his Ki). So before that he was suppressed.

17 was trying to keep Toppo occupied precisely because he was not able to defeat him.
When he saw that it was six minutes to the end, he tried to hold Toppo until the tournament was over.
And like I said, all this was not enough to do even a relevant damage to Toppo. He just cut off some of his clothes (and it was nothing close to what Goku SSB did with a Kamehameha, in which in addition to leaving Toppo's uniform more damaged, it also left him panting and irritated).

And the case of Goku and Golden Freeza was different.
Goku was far inferior, but even so, when his blows really hit Freeza, they clearly caused pain to the emperor. In the case of 17, not even his attacks of Ki scratch Toppo.

17 could do absolutely nothing against Toppo's full-power attack, he was only able to counter when Freeza attacked Toppo.

Fallacy. Just because someone isn't clad with aura and isn't putting everything he has into one powerful blast and stuff doesn't mean he is actually suppressed in the melee hand to hand combat area. With that logic I can say 17 was suppressed as well because he didn't power up when he was fighting Toppo and even when he fired his blast he didn't even charge it up. With that logic I can say Toppo and Vegeta were suppressed and holding back because they didn't charge up ki when they fought h2h. I can also say Toppo was definitely trying and fighting seriously without holding back even before using his full power blast. Also did you really just compare a full power kamehameha to some regular ki blast spam in order to decide the differences between 17 and SSJB Goku? That's taking things out of context.

I know 17 was trying to keep him occupied because of that said reason, but like I said it doesn't man 17 couldn't damage Toppo with his attacks.
The case of Goku and Golden Frieza wasn't different in context at all. SSJB was enough to damage Frieza but Frieza was still sueprior so that's why he was still easily winning. You say that Goku actually managed to cause pain to Frieza while 17 couldn't, but on what exactly are you basing that? 17 never hit Toppo at all. They were just fighting with blasts mostly and Toppo blocked all the attacks so it's totally irrelevant. And you keep saying not even his ki attacks could scratch him even after I explained to you 3 times by now that the intention behind those ki blasts was to keep him occupied and Toppo still had to block them, taking things out of context won't spport your argument.
There was literally no example of Toppo getting hit with full power blows from 17 and just taking it on like it was nothing like you're trying to imply. He always makes sure to block 17's attacks.

Absolutely nothing? Now you are just making false conclusions. 17 literally held off the blast with his own blast and it only slowly pushed 17 back, but he still matched it somewhat, and when he reached the edge he stopped being pushed back for a bit, then Frieza joined in.
Toppo literally had his hands full and focused everything he had on 17 to the point he was completely defenseless. Even a tiny death beam from a non serious Frieza was enough to distract him so much thathe could no longer have an advantage against 17. If 17 was as weak as you think he is, Toppo would have just blown him away and turn around to fight Frieza, but he couldn't do it even after Frieza attacked, he still used both hands to hold off 17's blast and allowed Frieza to blast him non stop. And on top of that, when Frieza blasted Toppo with a more powerul blast, it didn't finish Toppo off, it only made Toppo lose the beam struggle and allow 17's blast to hit him which obvioulsy put the most damage.
There are differences in their strength, but little differences, similar to SSJB Goku and Golden Frieza in ROF.

Also in the latest episode Goku had a plan to keep Jiren busy so 17 would then use a big powerful blast to damage Jiren, so obviously Goku knows 17 has enough power to damage these SSJB + tiers when they don't block or dodge, something you keep deny for some reason.

No, Toppo says he's going to use all his justice in the 17 '' now ''.
And before that, he said he would end the fight in one stroke (because of the infinite energy of 17). This implied that he only used all his power in the power struggle, and 17 does not use his barrier, he tries to counter the blow but is pushed without being able to do anything. He was not '' holding his own '' right now.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Who said that Goku's Kamehameha was with full power? He did not even gasp (against Gattai Zamasu he broke his arms).

17 never hit Toppo because he could not. He was fighting alongside Gohan, and neither of them managed to strike. 17 still tried to sacrifice himself and fall with Toppo.
And again, why do you think the Ki attacks of 17 were just to keep Toppo busy? Because he was not able to defeat it or cause significant damage.

Freeza was as strong as Toppo, so it's obvious that his attacks would be enough for Toppo to lose his concentration and 17 get the upper hand.
This does not mean that 17 is SSB level

No, the difference between Goku SSB and Golden Freeza is not as big as Toppo's and 17's.
Goku with full power at least was able to change some blows and hit Freeza, 17 could not do this

Again, when people in DB fight h2h they don't have to charge up all their energy. When Goku was fighting Jiren in his Blue form, he didn't charge up his energy into a full power blast, but that doesn't mean he was holding back in the h2h combat. I explained that point in my previous comment, you just ignored it and repeated the same thing you already said. Also, 17 didn't charge his energy as well so with your logic I can say he was holding back.

17 was holding off the blast, he was pushed back of course, but very slowly, and Toppo put extreme effort to do this and still couldn't end the beam struggle quickly, as 17 managed to somewhat match it and put great resistence. Saying he couldn't do anything is plain false. Of course 17 wouldn't win the beam struggle because he was weaker, but only a bit and it shows. If Toppo was that much stronger then he would have instantly overpowered 17's blast without breaking a sweat but that clearly wasn't the case here.

Who said it wasn't full power? Just because he didn't break his arm doesn't mean it wasn't full power, unless you want to tell me Goku had never used a full power kamehameha before the fight with Zamasu because he never broke his arms before. That kamehameha against Zamasu was a pretty big power level ussue anyway.
Goku said after the fight was over that he wasn't sure he could defeat Toppo in Blue, so that confirms he was using full strength.

There is a big difference between not being able to hit someone because that said someone is strong enough do dodge/block to not affecting someone with hits. Toppo was stronger than 17 so of course 17 wouldn't hit him, but that's not because 17's attacks are too weak to affect him. Also it's funny that you say neither of them managed to strike, because Toppo never managed to strike that much either, he only grabbed 1's arm which was according to his plan, threw Gohan away and that's it. The fight was way too short anyway and too little happened. What should be focused on is the solo fight in episode 125.
And as for your question, for the 5th time, yes I agree that the reason 17 chose to keep him buisy was because he couldn't damage him, but you continue to miss my point - he couldn't damage him because Toppo was stronger than him so he can block, dodge and counter better, not because 17's attacks were too weak to hurt Toppo if they hit him head on. I will bring the Golden Frieza example again, the power difference was small and Goku defnitely had enough power to hurt Frieza, but Frieza was stronger so he still dominated easily.

See? You said it yourself, the fact that Toppo had to use everything he had with full concentration that it left him completely opened and was still unable to finish the beam struggle quickly as 17 managed to hold if off, and also the fact he chose to keep both hands on 17 even after Frieza started blasting him already confirms 17's power level was close to that of Toppo's. That's the proof here.
It confirms 17 is near Blue level, not quite full power Blue, but close.

You are saying Goku could exchange blows with Frieza and 17 couldn't but that is simply not true. 17 never even tried to hit him, they fought a long range type of battle with ki blasts. 17 is always playing it safe, he knew that fighting Toppo head on would ultimately result in defeat, even if he manages to counter Toppo and land some hits, he would still have a disadvantage because Toppo would be able to land more hits and cause way more damage, just like the Golden Frieza fight.
You can't conclude that just because 17 chose a safer tactic because he knew he would be the defeated means that he couldn't hit Toppo at all. Goku may have managed to hit Golden Frieza like 2 times, but in the end, it accomplished nothing. Same here.

[DB▪Magnum-Expert]

There seems to be a shit ton of Kefla downplay going around here.

[DB▪Magnum-Expert]

[Rally 07]

But in the same time he's not at 100% power when using these god forms and he gradually loses more stamina as he goes SSBKK. But again I don't see how your argument correlate to Kefla knocking SSBKK Goku out of his forms when he was losing much more stamina as the fight prolonged. The fact that Vados thinks SSB Goku would be more than enough to be troublesome to Kefla while it took normal kaioken to gain a upper hand may imply Goku is a few times weaker but again it's not relevant to what I was trying to address.

Again, Gokou likely has more than enough stamina to be able to not only transform into his God forms such a Super Saiyan Blue which does indeed has some sort of strain, but to fight with Kaioken. Gokou being fatigued is really not too much of an issue. I don't understand why you continue to imply Kefla simply stands a chance due to Gokou being fatigued. That's completely illogical. As a Super Saiyan, she already rivals if not surpasses the Genkidama due to her growing more and more powerful during the fight. Gokou would have be pushed to transforming into Ultra Instinct regardless. As she'd be vaguely much more powerful than Super Saiyan Blue w/Kaioken x20 easily just like the Genkidama and suppressed Jiren was. And even Gokou then was fatigued due to using Kaioken x 20. But later is stated by Gohan to have more than enough stamina left while Gokou is fighting against the Genkidama with Jiren.

You're repeating arguments, she was being overpowered by SSBKK Goku. She knocked him out of the form because his stamina got even worse in the fight, Beerus claimed that using SSBKK would be bad for his current state and that he had one more shot left right before she kicked him. Your point is becomes more contradictive when she calls Goku a worthy opponent(she won't call him that if she's fighting him while suppressed) and Goku already told her to pump things up in which both powered up. Piccolo also claims SSJ2 Kefla just surpassed fatigue SSBKK so she wouldn''t surpass him prior even in full power. There's literally no arguments you can make of her being suppressed beside headcannon or repeated disproved arguments.

Being overpowered huh? That's laughable still. Even if Gokou had somewhat of an advantage. He would've been eventually defeated regardless, not soley because of his stamina as you claim; but because Kefla was either suppressed and holding back (Super Saiyan 2) or would've surpassed Gokou during the middle of the fight. She wasn't even going all out until the end, she fought on par with Super Saiyan Blue w/ Kaioken, then goes on the take down Gokou with one kick effortlessly. And Kefla calling Gokou an worthy opponent is irrelevant, it doesn't mean anything. Jiren called Vegeta a warrior which he is, does that mean Vegeta technically overpowered Jiren because he's respected and complimented during a fight? And Gokou telling Kefla to "pump things up" is irrelevant as well. It literally means nothing and doesn't contribute anything into furthering your argument. And you've ignored and disregarded my argument on Kefla being suppressed or holding back and continued on with claiming she isn't with your evidence being "she called Gokou a worthy opponent so she's not suppressed". Which doesn't prove she wasn't holding back at all.

[quote="SayianBeyondGod']
Yes but he was more fatigue than when fighting Jiren, he couldn't even go SSBKKx20 against Kefla with Beerus worried about Goku using even normal while not concern about Hoku using SSBKKx10 or x20 against Jiren. Vados and Champa blatantly imply Kefla stood chance due to Goku being fatigue, plain and simple. Goku had not stamina left after the battle with Jiren and had to rely on some energy from final form Freeza. Goku only had a small chance to recover when fighting Caulifa and Kale.[/quote]

Yes, Gokou couldn't even access his full power when he transformed into Ultra Instinct then due to him being fatigued. And the only reason he was able fight with Jiren was because he decided to use the Genkidama as fuel to attack. But he did have less energy than he did before now. Freeza must have given Gokou enough energy not only walk around but fight as well. Due to him fighting immediately after watching Hit vs. Jiren.

Sure as I said there's another translation to it here, in Japanese: "元気玉を浴びた時のパワーに" - the most important part of the translation is の, which indicates possession of the Spirit bomb in which Goku was submerged in or alternatively Goku when he was submerged in the Spirit bomb. This is where the ambiguity lies because both translations can be valid, since the sentence structure of subject-verb-possession can be used in both manner.
Like what me and TheSaiyanGod being saying in this thread, it's possible the Whis statement can be interpreted as Kefla Ki rivalled the Genkidama in a role interpretation even when she's rivalling directly the spirit bomb rather than Goku being bathed.

Again you're giving me these translations that all mean to same thing. Super Saiyan Kefla's power rivals that of the Genkidama. Plain and simple. I think you're just overcomplicating it. And even if you argued it was Kefla's exact energy or Ki that rivals the Genkidama rather than her overall power, Ki and power sorta correlate with each other in Dragon Ball.

Agreed that the Genkidama is more powerful than SSBKK at the time, after all Goku resorted to using it and called it his special technique in someway. I think Jiren was more powerful when fighting SSBKK Goku but weaker than UI, base off the fact he sweats when fighting Vegeta or his shocked by his power with Belmod worried. Not to mention Vegeta breached his energy. While Vegeta had no Zenkai he did trained a lot in the time chamber and was still ahead of Goku ever since the end of the Future Trunks arcs. I have a theory that both SSB Goku and Vegeta now rival if not surpass SSBKK Goku from special and prior.

That makes absolutely no sense. Why would Jiren be more powerful against Super Saiyan Blue w/ Kaioken, but weaker against Ultra Instinct? Ultra Instinct is stronger than Super Saiyan Blue. Jiren would more than likely use more And Jiren was more than likely suppressed like he was against Super Saiyan Blue Gokou in the special or possibly earlier in Super episode 122. As Vegeta says "you were stronger and faster when you fought Kakarrott" which could mean possibly mean Ultra Instinct or Super Saiyan Blue from the special or earlier in Super episode 122. But in my opinion he probably means Super Saiyan Blue Gokou from the special or earlier in Super episode 122. It's just my subjective stance. But regardless Vegeta probably somewhat did a better job than Super Saiyan Blue w/ Kaioken x 20 and maybe Hit if you want to go there. But what's good about that is that Vegeta could possibly be stronger than Belmod due to Vegeta putting a worry on his face and concerned about Jiren. So in a way Belmod sorta acknowledges that Jiren is stronger than himself. This is why I believe the Genkidama was more than likely Hakaishin tier.

Plus it doesn't imply she surpasses Super Saiyan Blue w/ Kaioken as a Super Saiyan 2. It's more than likely the previous Ultra Instinct as Kefla pushes Gokou to evolve and master Ultra Instinct. I doubt it was Gokou's Kaioken output because it would've been actually stated and solidified upon. Dysport and Toppo in Super episode 116 both specifically state that Gokou's harnessing better movement and he's going to become more powerful. And Gokou probably could've been holding back and I can see why you're arguing that. Cause he did stop powering up and set himself at a limit before Kefla stopped powering up. And Gokou's attacks were wimpy as Kefla stated because he hadn't completely mastered the attack pattern or offensive side of Ultra Instinct yet. And this is further backed up when Vados states Kefla's power and vigor is impressive, but Gokou's reactions are better.

[perucho1990]

Here is a clear proof Episode 110 UI Goku is now a laughing stock, and everyone and their mother surpassed him.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Looks more like a simple matching of blows, something that doesn't explicitly require matched power levels.

It's actually more impressive on Jiren's part that he could actually match Ultra Instinct Goku's fist there, since his ability to move without input from his mind increases his speed and reaction time immensely. We see that Goku dodges Jiren's first punch extremely easily, to the point that he seems to be moving in Matrix-style slow-mo, and yet Jiren is still able to match his blow, a testament to how good the Pride Trooper's own speed and reaction time are.

[DB▪Magnum-Expert]

Here is a clear proof Episode 110 UI Goku is now a laughing stock, and everyone and their mother surpassed him.

Agreed. Ultra Instinct Goku Episode 110 started to become fodder ever since episode 116 and 122+

Current SsjB Goku > Ultra Instinct Goku Episode 116 by far.

[Green]

More like an example of horrific writing.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I think I'll stick with the interpretation I came up with a few posts ago.

Remember, kiddies..... it's all just nerds getting flustered over a Chinese cartoon

[Kenneth La Torre]

I think I'll stick with the interpretation I came up with a few posts ago.

Remember, kiddies..... it's all just nerds getting flustered over a Chinese cartoon

That’s news to me. Didn’t know dbs was Chinese


(Sarcasm)

[perucho1990]

Agreed. Ultra Instinct Goku Episode 110 started to become fodder ever since episode 116 and 122+

Current SsjB Goku > Ultra Instinct Goku Episode 116 by far.

We have no idea about the peak of Episode 116 UI Goku, he was blitzing Kefla and caught her offguard with the kamehameha, and Toppo mentioning Goku got stronger since the first fight vs Jiren meaning Episode 116 UI Goku > Episode 110 UI Goku.

[DB▪Magnum-Expert]

Agreed. Ultra Instinct Goku Episode 110 started to become fodder ever since episode 116 and 122+

Current SsjB Goku > Ultra Instinct Goku Episode 116 by far.

We have no idea about the peak of Episode 116 UI Goku, he was blitzing Kefla and caught her offguard with the kamehameha, and Toppo mentioning Goku got stronger since the first fight vs Jiren meaning Episode 116 UI Goku > Episode 110 UI Goku.

I didn't really disagree that Ultra Instinct Goku Episode 116 is above Ultra Instinct Goku Episode 110, so I don't even know what's the purpose of this, and I hardly believe there's any

But he started becoming fodder ever since then.

[SayianBeyondGod]

Again, Gokou likely has more than enough stamina to be able to not only transform into his God forms such a Super Saiyan Blue which does indeed has some sort of strain, but to fight with Kaioken. Gokou being fatigued is really not too much of an issue. I don't understand why you continue to imply Kefla simply stands a chance due to Gokou being fatigued. That's completely illogical. As a Super Saiyan, she already rivals if not surpasses the Genkidama due to her growing more and more powerful during the fight. Gokou would have be pushed to transforming into Ultra Instinct regardless. As she'd be vaguely much more powerful than Super Saiyan Blue w/Kaioken x20 easily just like the Genkidama and suppressed Jiren was. And even Gokou then was fatigued due to using Kaioken x 20. But later is stated by Gohan to have more than enough stamina left while Gokou is fighting against the Genkidama with Jiren.

Again we've been through this, it's been blatantly implied the entire show, yet your make the same repetitive arguments. Turning into God forms doesn't matter, his performance in battle is still affected by fatigue but not to the extend he can't turn into god forms which doesn't require too much stamina. Beerus claimed that in Goku fatigued state he shouldn't utilize normal SSBKK and that he has only one more shot before he runs out of stamina/ki hence why she was able to knock him out of his form with the rest of his merger energy, so stamina clearly affected him there which allowed Kefla to get a upper hand. Vados claims that kefla at SSJ should take blue Goku carefully, while champa responded that Goku was still fatigue implying to why Kefla stood a chance which was due to Goku currently being fatigued in the fight and proves that a full power SSB would be too much, with no argument against her statement from champa. Just after that Vados question whether Kefla can take on(not beat or win) fatigue blue goku(which champa already acknowledges in the conversation) in which Champa responded "yeah". That fact that SSB at full power alone would be troublesome may imply that how fatigue Goku is which make sense, considering Vegeta in 122 could put up a fight with Jiren(more supressed than the spirit bomb) who's ki is above Kefla. Again Whis's statement can be interpreted as a role/ability comparison, it's contradictive to believe she has for many reason like being overpowered by SSBKK or SSB being troublesome, by your logic they rival the spirit bomb too. Picoolo also makes it clear that Kefla just surpassed the earlier form which is most likely SSBKK and then we have the narrator implying it was the extreme overall battle that triggered the form not a kick.

Being overpowered huh? That's laughable still. Even if Gokou had somewhat of an advantage. He would've been eventually defeated regardless, not soley because of his stamina as you claim; but because Kefla was either suppressed and holding back (Super Saiyan 2) or would've surpassed Gokou during the middle of the fight. She wasn't even going all out until the end, she fought on par with Super Saiyan Blue w/ Kaioken, then goes on the take down Gokou with one kick effortlessly. And Kefla calling Gokou an worthy opponent is irrelevant, it doesn't mean anything. Jiren called Vegeta a warrior which he is, does that mean Vegeta technically overpowered Jiren because he's respected and complimented during a fight? And Gokou telling Kefla to "pump things up" is irrelevant as well. It literally means nothing and doesn't contribute anything into furthering your argument. And you've ignored and disregarded my argument on Kefla being suppressed or holding back and continued on with claiming she isn't with your evidence being "she called Gokou a worthy opponent so she's not suppressed". Which doesn't prove she wasn't holding back at all.

Again you've failed to provide any burden of proof for Kefla being supressed so I have reason to keep denying it. Since he ki was going down at a fast rate and wasn't able to go SSBKK x10 or x20, Kefla would've beat him at SSJ2 if she decided to. At full power normal SSBKK would be enough or SSBKK X10. Regardless she didn't fought pair with SSBKK, she struggles to get up more than once with her arm numb and also fails to react to him move with the U6 crowd worried. How is that fighting on pair, unless it's your own subjective opinion on how a fair fight is which is wrong. Kefla calling Goku a worthy opponent means he a challenging opponent that have her a challenge/struggle. Jiren just calls Vegeta "warrior" not worthy of any kind like a worthy which can imply he was worth a defeat or challenge. Even so worthy doesn't necessarily mean one would overpower the other than again Vegeta's final flash was more powerful than the spirit bomb and Whis statement Jiren had enough energy to ignite Vegeta (Jiren power should rival the spirit bomb). Goku and Kefla both powered up to their max when he said "pump things up" , your ignoring the visual context here. You can keep saying this means nothing with no care of elaboration but vague denial arguments. Even if Kefla was supressed, the same Kefla that got overpowered never powered up to kick Goku.

Yes, Gokou couldn't even access his full power when he transformed into Ultra Instinct then due to him being fatigued. And the only reason he was able fight with Jiren was because he decided to use the Genkidama as fuel to attack. But he did have less energy than he did before now. Freeza must have given Gokou enough energy not only walk around but fight as well. Due to him fighting immediately after watching Hit vs. Jiren.

Agreed for the former and last point, but I don't believe Goku had full access of his genki energy in 116 as he never got a full chance to recover from the battle with Jiren.

Again you're giving me these translations that all mean to same thing. Super Saiyan Kefla's power rivals that of the Genkidama. Plain and simple. I think you're just overcomplicating it. And even if you argued it was Kefla's exact energy or Ki that rivals the Genkidama rather than her overall power, Ki and power sorta correlate with each other in Dragon Ball.

Not really, they're not the same thing, one compares Kefla ki to Goku bathing in the Genkidama while the other compares directly to the Genkidama. Ki isn't necessarily all about power it's also other things and Whis doesn't compare in a sense of raw power. Whis comparing Kefla Ki ( not kick) with the Genkidama ki can be interpreted as role comparasion. I find this reinforced as Whis latter talks about her ki being a stimulus to trigger Goku rather than forcing him with a specified raw power to break his shell. The narrator in the same episode claims that this was the overall battle that acted as a trigger as Goku was begging to ware down to a lowstate like he was when bathing in the Genkidama.

That makes absolutely no sense. Why would Jiren be more powerful against Super Saiyan Blue w/ Kaioken, but weaker against Ultra Instinct? Ultra Instinct is stronger than Super Saiyan Blue. Jiren would more than likely use more And Jiren was more than likely suppressed like he was against Super Saiyan Blue Gokou in the special or possibly earlier in Super episode 122. As Vegeta says "you were stronger and faster when you fought Kakarrott" which could mean possibly mean Ultra Instinct or Super Saiyan Blue from the special or earlier in Super episode 122. But in my opinion he probably means Super Saiyan Blue Gokou from the special or earlier in Super episode 122. It's just my subjective stance. But regardless Vegeta probably somewhat did a better job than Super Saiyan Blue w/ Kaioken x 20 and maybe Hit if you want to go there. But what's good about that is that Vegeta could possibly be stronger than Belmod due to Vegeta putting a worry on his face and concerned about Jiren. So in a way Belmod sorta acknowledges that Jiren is stronger than himself. This is why I believe the Genkidama was more than likely Hakaishin tier.

Your former doesn't make sense, there's a gap of power between UI and SSBKKx20 so I don't know what you're trying to dispute. Vegeta's breaches Jiren Ki barrier with Belmod worried, I don't think Belmod would be worried unless Jiren performance was better than 109 Goku. But in the same time I don't believe Belmod being worried means Vegeta surpassed him at all.

Plus it doesn't imply she surpasses Super Saiyan Blue w/ Kaioken as a Super Saiyan 2. It's more than likely the previous Ultra Instinct as Kefla pushes Gokou to evolve and master Ultra Instinct. I doubt it was Gokou's Kaioken output because it would've been actually stated and solidified upon. Dysport and Toppo in Super episode 116 both specifically state that Gokou's harnessing better movement and he's going to become more powerful. And Gokou probably could've been holding back and I can see why you're arguing that. Cause he did stop powering up and set himself at a limit before Kefla stopped powering up. And Gokou's attacks were wimpy as Kefla stated because he hadn't completely mastered the attack pattern or offensive side of Ultra Instinct yet. And this is further backed up when Vados states Kefla's power and vigor is impressive, but Gokou's reactions are better.

Again Picoolo says it's more recent with the only recent form being SSBKK that was overpowering her prior which make sense for her to finally surpass the same Goku. Vegeta whom has been having tabs on Kefla ki claims that even Jiren more supress than 110( rivalling Ui Goku) was the strongest ki he felt or stronger than Kefla in other words, she couldn't even surpass 110 Ui Goku. It'll be worse to think it's 109 Goku he's referring to. I don't think Kefla pushed Goku, he powered up less than her that ignited her according to Gohan and after calling his attacks wimpy Goku overpowering her with physically attacks to the point where she says "impossible" when on the ground grasping her stomach in pain with noticeble damage once his aura ignites while claiming he's getting the hang of it. But Goku was still more fatigue in the battle than he was in 110 despite the more polish moves.

[Rally 07]

Again we've been through this, it's been blatantly implied the entire show, yet your make the same repetitive arguments. Turning into God forms doesn't matter, his performance in battle is still affected by fatigue but not to the extend he can't turn into god forms which doesn't require too much stamina. Beerus claimed that in Goku fatigued state he shouldn't utilize normal SSBKK and that he has only one more shot before he runs out of stamina/ki hence why she was able to knock him out of his form with the rest of his merger energy, so stamina clearly affected him there which allowed Kefla to get a upper hand. Vados claims that kefla at SSJ should take blue Goku carefully, while champa responded that Goku was still fatigue implying to why Kefla stood a chance which was due to Goku currently being fatigued in the fight and proves that a full power SSB would be too much, with no argument against her statement from champa. Just after that Vados question whether Kefla can take on(not beat or win) fatigue blue goku(which champa already acknowledges in the conversation) in which Champa responded "yeah". That fact that SSB at full power alone would be troublesome may imply that how fatigue Goku is which make sense, considering Vegeta in 122 could put up a fight with Jiren(more supressed than the spirit bomb) who's ki is above Kefla. Again Whis's statement can be interpreted as a role/ability comparison, it's contradictive to believe she has for many reason like being overpowered by SSBKK or SSB being troublesome, by your logic they rival the spirit bomb too. Picoolo also makes it clear that Kefla just surpassed the earlier form which is most likely SSBKK and then we have the narrator implying it was the extreme overall battle that triggered the form not a kick.

Repetitive arguments hmm? Okay then, quite contradictory as you continue to make the same arguments as well. "Kefla only stands a chance because Gokou's fatigued", "Super Saiyan Kefla wasn't holding back without me proving it other than Kefla calling Gokou a worthy opponent". But whatever I suppose. And oh yeah transforming into Super Saiyan Blue or Super Saiyan God several times over and over doesn't matter either too I guess. Right, definitely. So I guess none of the forms have that strain they're known to have. And yes absolutely yes, the God forms need some substantial amount of energy to be able repeatedly transform into. Not to mention Kaioken which the user should very well have more than enough energy if he's spamming it over and over. And then Beerus claiming Gokou shouldn't be able to use Kaioken because he doesn't have enough energy is later contradicted by Gokou using Kaioken throughout the fight. And Gokou most definitely has more than enough energy to use Kaioken. The unfortunate thing is that there's a lot of inconsistent statements regarding both Kefla and Gokou. And once again you do not prove that Kefla only surpassed Super Saiyan Blue w/ Kaioken. I mean you've completely ignored my evidence supporting Kefla surpassing the previous Ultra Instinct and disregard it and claiming the same thing without any proof.

Again you've failed to provide any burden of proof for Kefla being supressed so I have reason to keep denying it. Since he ki was going down at a fast rate and wasn't able to go SSBKK x10 or x20, Kefla would've beat him at SSJ2 if she decided to. At full power normal SSBKK would be enough or SSBKK X10. Regardless she didn't fought pair with SSBKK, she struggles to get up more than once with her arm numb and also fails to react to him move with the U6 crowd worried. How is that fighting on pair, unless it's your own subjective opinion on how a fair fight is which is wrong. Kefla calling Goku a worthy opponent means he a challenging opponent that have her a challenge/struggle. Jiren just calls Vegeta "warrior" not worthy of any kind like a worthy which can imply he was worth a defeat or challenge. Even so worthy doesn't necessarily mean one would overpower the other than again Vegeta's final flash was more powerful than the spirit bomb and Whis statement Jiren had enough energy to ignite Vegeta (Jiren power should rival the spirit bomb). Goku and Kefla both powered up to their max when he said "pump things up" , your ignoring the visual context here. You can keep saying this means nothing with no care of elaboration but vague denial arguments. Even if Kefla was supressed, the same Kefla that got overpowered never powered up to kick Goku.

As I said earlier I provided proof supporting Kefla may have been suppressed due to her fighting with Gokou then randomly one shotting him to Base form. You've provided absolutely zero proof supporting Kefla wasn't suppressed. Even if she wasn't suppressed in her Super Saiyan form, she was still holding back Super Saiyan 2 anyway. And yeah the "pump things up" argument isn't really going anywhere as that specific scene was more or less a hype scene for the upcoming fight for Super Saiyan Kefla and Super Saiyan Blue. And Kefla was at least holding her own against Blue w/ Kaioken, if you really want to downplay Kefla but whatever I'll let it slide. Plus the spectators being worried is very irrelevant as they do that all the time with every little thing. Plus it has nothing to do with anything nor does it prove anything either. Along with that, that same scene honestly seem like it was probably for dramatic effect honestly. And Kefla never powered up to kick Gokou? I can understand that but all the same you do realize some characters could probably power up with warning. Kefla could've likely powered up without warning.
Also even if you disagree and believe Kefla wasn't fighting on par with Gokou then okay. But Gokou only used Kaioken near the end of the fight to give himself an advantage.

Not really, they're not the same thing, one compares Kefla ki to Goku bathing in the Genkidama while the other compares directly to the Genkidama. Ki isn't necessarily all about power it's also other things and Whis doesn't compare in a sense of raw power. Whis comparing Kefla Ki ( not kick) with the Genkidama ki can be interpreted as role comparasion. I find this reinforced as Whis latter talks about her ki being a stimulus to trigger Goku rather than forcing him with a specified raw power to break his shell. The narrator in the same episode claims that this was the overall battle that acted as a trigger as Goku was begging to ware down to a lowstate like he was when bathing in the Genkidama.

Umm both statements are comparing Kefla to the Genkidama regardless. And Ki does indeed correlate with power with Ki being able to risen and harnessed like power. Again I think you're overcomplicating this in regards of Whis' statement. It's a very simple statement to understand.

To be honest I doubt we'll be able find some sort of common ground with this. This debate is really not going anywhere at all. I respect you and your arguments all the same and I respect your stance on this topic. You have your stance regarding Kefla and I have mine. But the main problem with this, is that there are a lot of inconsistent statements concerning Gokou's stamina, Kefla, and so and so.

[SayianBeyondGod]

Repetitive arguments hmm? Okay then, quite contradictory as you continue to make the same arguments as well. "Kefla only stands a chance because Gokou's fatigued", "Super Saiyan Kefla wasn't holding back without me proving it other than Kefla calling Gokou a worthy opponent". But whatever I suppose. And oh yeah transforming into Super Saiyan Blue or Super Saiyan God several times over and over doesn't matter either too I guess. Right, definitely. So I guess none of the forms have that strain they're known to have. And yes absolutely yes, the God forms need some substantial amount of energy to be able repeatedly transform into. Not to mention Kaioken which the user should very well have more than enough energy if he's spamming it over and over. And then Beerus claiming Gokou shouldn't be able to use Kaioken because he doesn't have enough energy is later contradicted by Gokou using Kaioken throughout the fight. And Gokou most definitely has more than enough energy to use Kaioken. The unfortunate thing is that there's a lot of inconsistent statements regarding both Kefla and Gokou. And once again you do not prove that Kefla only surpassed Super Saiyan Blue w/ Kaioken. I mean you've completely ignored my evidence supporting Kefla surpassing the previous Ultra Instinct and disregard it and claiming the same thing without any proof.

Then only reason I don't need to change my arguments much is because you make the same points with the same flaws. I've brought up more than just she calling him a worthy opponent, such as the Piccolo statement suggesting that she need SSJ2 to surpass SSBK fatigue Goku, Goku telling her to pump things up in which she powered up as a response, her struggling against him and etc. I don't see any objective evidence of her being surpass besides misinterpreting her claiming she wanted to fight to be longer. SSG doesn't have any strain with SSB needing to be conserved base off what Whis claimed earlier in the arc though it hardly has any strain compared to the manga. It doesn't change the fact he can't use these forms at their 100% abilities hence why Vados makes it clear SSB at full power may be too much with Champa responding that Goku being fatigue is what allowing her to take him on. He can only go normal SSBKK not x10 or x20 with Beerus warning him about using even normal Kaioken with a very short period use due to it draining his stamina even more rapidly which allowed Kefla to get a upper hand on a very weak Goku. Regardless being able to turn into God forms really relevant to these scenes or points? I get you're trying to argue he wasn't that fatigue or using something like 10% of his power, but he's still affected by fatigue throughout battle regardless. He's no spamming Kaioken over and over in this fight nor he's using it too it's max, he can't even maintain it that long compared other fights he has like Goku going x10-20 when fighting Jiren. Beerus was right that he shouldn't use it in his state, considering he was later weaken and had only one shot left, there's no contradictory here like you're claiming. I don't think Goku needs to be anyway near 100% or a lot stamina to use let alone normal kaioken, he was able to fight Bergamo or ultimate Gohan while significantly supressed in SSBKK.I did prove Kefla SSJ2 just Surpassed SSBKK Goku, again here's the prove, it's you neglecting my arguments:


Actual Japanese translation of Picoolo's statement, in episode 116:
このパワー…先ほどまでだったら孫を超えてるかもしれん！
このパワー means "This power"
先ほど means "a little time ago"
まで means "until"
だったら means something like "if that's the case"
孫を超えてるかもしれん means "Might surpass Son [Goku]"

Picoolo in Japanese translation is claiming it's a more recent form not 110 Ui which happen 6 episodes ago, which makes sense as SSBKK overpowered her. Vegeta in episode 122 claimed that Jiren Ki was the strongest he felt, the same Jiren that was more supressed than episode 110 when revealing UI Goku hence Kefla at SSJ2 does not surpass episode 110 UI Goku. Even fatigue UI Goku was able to beat her with only less power up which ignited her according to Gohan and Picoolo. Try again

As I said earlier I provided proof supporting Kefla may have been suppressed due to her fighting with Gokou then randomly one shotting him to Base form. You've provided absolutely zero proof supporting Kefla wasn't suppressed. Even if she wasn't suppressed in her Super Saiyan form, she was still holding back Super Saiyan 2 anyway. And yeah the "pump things up" argument isn't really going anywhere as that specific scene was more or less a hype scene for the upcoming fight for Super Saiyan Kefla and Super Saiyan Blue. And Kefla was at least holding her own against Blue w/ Kaioken, if you really want to downplay Kefla but whatever I'll let it slide. Plus the spectators being worried is very irrelevant as they do that all the time with every little thing. Plus it has nothing to do with anything nor does it prove anything either. Along with that, that same scene honestly seem like it was probably for dramatic effect honestly. And Kefla never powered up to kick Gokou? I can understand that but all the same you do realize some characters could probably power up with warning. Kefla could've likely powered up without warning.
Also even if you disagree and believe Kefla wasn't fighting on par with Gokou then okay. But Gokou only used Kaioken near the end of the fight to give himself an advantage.

Again she never powered by when kicking him, she only powered up when Goku told her to pump things up with Goku in SSBKK overpowering and blitz her. It was already explained by Beerus Goku wouldn't be able to maintain SSBKK and had one more shot left in which Kefla distracted him with Ki blast which Goku wasted his Kamekameka on which left him weaken that allow Kefla to kick away his merger energy. Again the burden of proof is on you not me, as you made the original claim you have to back it up, despite that I made better arguments to refute your claim which you failed to refute. She powered up to her max as SSJ2 especially when UI Goku ki was igniting her and he still had a upper edge, wouldn't SSJ2 Kefla try to surpass that Goku rather than be below he power? Again you're forgetting the visual context when Goku told her to pump things up they powered up suddenly, the statement in context is telling her to put more effort in. Goku told Kefla to pump things up when he was in SSBKK it wasn't a hype scene for blue vs SSJ. I don't how you can define "holding her own" but she was still being overpowered and blitz with her not giving Goku any struggle until she kicked a weaken and distracted Goku. Statements from the spectators have a much more valuable commentary, they're not irrelevant otherwise you can't claim Kefla rivals the Genkidama or she surpass Ui from 110 if you're going to neglect what the spectators say. Usually hen a character powers up you see their ki aura expanding or flare we don't see that for Kefla, nor we have the luxury of any statements or context she powered up, the best you can argue is speculation. I'm aware he need SSBKK to beat her since he was fatigue to use 100% blue.

Umm both statements are comparing Kefla to the Genkidama regardless. And Ki does indeed correlate with power with Ki being able to risen and harnessed like power. Again I think you're overcomplicating this in regards of Whis' statement. It's a very simple statement to understand.

No, one is comparing her to the Genki while the other talks about Goku when bathed in the Genki. The latter compares Goku in person, i don't see how they're the same as you're claiming. Whis doesn't talk about Ki in a matter of power, and KI isn't just commonly referred as power, it's also life energy, what allows characters to perform supernatural abilities. It's not overthinking to interpreted Whis statement as comparing Kefla ki to the genkidama in a role comparison especially when you take the latter of the statement in context. I don't see an issue being elaborative with context which I'm sure you've done.

To be honest I doubt we'll be able find some sort of common ground with this. This debate is really not going anywhere at all. I respect you and your arguments all the same and I respect your stance on this topic. You have your stance regarding Kefla and I have mine. But the main problem with this, is that there are a lot of inconsistent statements concerning Gokou's stamina, Kefla, and so and so.

I don't think it's consistency being too much of an issue, my arguments/points for Kefla being below Genkidama level all follow perfectly with each other with little to no contradictary:

- Whis compares Kefla ki to the spirit bomb in a role comparasion espeically when in the rest of the context he talks about stimulus
- Narrator claims it's the overall battle that triggered Goku form, which imply Goku was wearing down to a lowstate like he was in 110
- Vados and Champa imply SSB Goku may be too much for SSJ and Goku being fatguie is what kept her up
- SSBKK Goku overpowers and biltz her with the crowd worried
- Gohan claims the UI Goku was igniting Kefla to power up which Picoolo argeed on
- Picoolo states SSJ2 Kefla just surpasssed SSBKK
- Fatguie UI Goku overpower her
- Vegeat claims Jiren more supress when rivalling 110 UI Goku has the strongest KI, which implies SSJ2 Kefla is below 110 UI Goku

[Kenneth La Torre]

People still denying SSJ2 Kefla above 110 UI goku. Poor souls.

[Rally 07]

Then only reason I don't need to change my arguments much is because you make the same points with the same flaws. I've brought up more than just she calling him a worthy opponent, such as the Piccolo statement suggesting that she need SSJ2 to surpass SSBK fatigue Goku, Goku telling her to pump things up in which she powered up as a response, her struggling against him and etc. I don't see any objective evidence of her being surpass besides misinterpreting her claiming she wanted to fight to be longer. SSG doesn't have any strain with SSB needing to be conserved base off what Whis claimed earlier in the arc though it hardly has any strain compared to the manga. It doesn't change the fact he can't use these forms at their 100% abilities hence why Vados makes it clear SSB at full power may be too much with Champa responding that Goku being fatigue is what allowing her to take him on. He can only go normal SSBKK not x10 or x20 with Beerus warning him about using even normal Kaioken with a very short period use due to it draining his stamina even more rapidly which allowed Kefla to get a upper hand on a very weak Goku. Regardless being able to turn into God forms really relevant to these scenes or points? I get you're trying to argue he wasn't that fatigue or using something like 10% of his power, but he's still affected by fatigue throughout battle regardless. He's no spamming Kaioken over and over in this fight nor he's using it too it's max, he can't even maintain it that long compared other fights he has like Goku going x10-20 when fighting Jiren. Beerus was right that he shouldn't use it in his state, considering he was later weaken and had only one shot left, there's no contradictory here like you're claiming. I don't think Goku needs to be anyway near 100% or a lot stamina to use let alone normal kaioken, he was able to fight Bergamo or ultimate Gohan while significantly supressed in SSBKK.I did prove Kefla SSJ2 just Surpassed SSBKK Goku, again here's the prove, it's you neglecting my arguments

It is actually contradictory or at least inconsistent that Beerus claims Gokou shouldn't be able to utilize Kaioken despite the mere fact that Gokou is using it anyway whether or not he's fatigued. It's a reflection of not only Super's inconsistencies but it's *cough bad writing. Also having to re-watch the fight over and over for a straight hour and taking your point of view into more consideration. I actually now understand why you argue why Gokou would be stronger than Kefla at normal strength. But all the same there is the Genkidama which is vaguely more powerful than Super Saiyan Blue w/ Kaioken x 20. And Kefla does rival this either way you put it. But I'll have further do some thinking concerning that.

Again the burden of proof is on you not me, as you made the original claim you have to back it up, despite that I made better arguments to refute your claim which you failed to refute. She powered up to her max as SSJ2 especially when UI Goku ki was igniting her and he still had a upper edge, wouldn't SSJ2 Kefla try to surpass that Goku rather than be below he power? Again you're forgetting the visual context when Goku told her to pump things up they powered up suddenly, the statement in context is telling her to put more effort in. Goku told Kefla to pump things up when he was in SSBKK it wasn't a hype scene for blue vs SSJ. I don't how you can define "holding her own" but she was still being overpowered and blitz with her not giving Goku any struggle until she kicked a weaken and distracted Goku. Statements from the spectators have a much more valuable commentary, they're not irrelevant otherwise you can't claim Kefla rivals the Genkidama or she surpass Ui from 110 if you're going to neglect what the spectators say.

And how so? I gave you and explanation with evidence on why I believe Kefla wasn't going all out. You've never explained why she wouldn't or isn't suppressed or holding back. And again, the "pump things up" argument, I see no real, possible relevance it has. It's nothing more than a hype scene for the upcoming fight between Gokou and Kefla. We've characters claim they're at full power before but really just hold back more power. And Kefla was definitely holding her own at least until Gokou used Kaioken. I mean, you can have that.

I don't think it's consistency being too much of an issue, my arguments for Kefla being below Genkidama level all follow perfectly with each other with little to no contradictary:[/qoute]

Consistency is the main problem when scaling Dragon Ball. Especially Dragon Ball Super and how the writing can affect the scaling. There's really a lot of inconsistent statements concerning Gokou and Kefla unfortunately. And that's a problem. Gokou being stated to not be use Kaioken but he's using for long periods of time etc.

While I still believe Kefla is quite powerful in her own right and would give Gokou trouble even if he has stamina or not. I don't really see this debate going anywhere or getting any common ground. So I guess I'm done here then. Not that I'm conceding and saying you win and I lose. No not at all. You just brought up some arguments that I now feel I should take into consideration. Thank you for the debate never the less SayianBeyondGod. You did bring some good arguments to the discussion.

[SayianBeyondGod]

It is actually contradictory or at least inconsistent that Beerus claims Gokou shouldn't be able to utilize Kaioken despite the mere fact that Gokou is using it anyway whether or not he's fatigued. It's a reflection of not only Super's inconsistencies but it's *cough bad writing. Also having to re-watch the fight over and over for a straight hour and taking your point of view into more consideration. I actually now understand why you argue why Gokou would be stronger than Kefla at normal strength. But all the same there is the Genkidama which is vaguely more powerful than Super Saiyan Blue w/ Kaioken x 20. And Kefla does rival this either way you put it. But I'll have further do some thinking concerning that.

Consistency is the main problem when scaling Dragon Ball. Especially Dragon Ball Super and how the writing can affect the scaling. There's really a lot of inconsistent statements concerning Gokou and Kefla unfortunately. And that's a problem. Gokou being stated to not be use Kaioken but he's using for long periods of time etc.

Beerus isn't claiming Goku can't use SSBKK, he's implying that he shouldn't use it in his state since he's fatguie. This what lead to his staimia getting worse much sooner which lead Kefla to take advanatge of despite gaining an initall upper hand. I don't really think she rivals the genkidama in raw power if she's being overpowered by fatguie Goku in regular kaioken or SSB at full power being a threat, i think it's safer and better to interperate it as role interpretation. But again I did provide a bunch of evidence disputing that she wasn't supressed not just one and when it came to the "pump things" up you haven't acknowlegded the visual context of them powering up. Don't say i didn't provivde any evidence to get back at me, becuase i claimed the burden of proof was on you or the fact I claimed i refuted your arguments. I leave the rest of your point as you have no interest in debating which is fine, but i thought this is worth addressing.

People still denying SSJ2 Kefla above 110 UI goku. Poor souls.

Again didn't Vegeta claim Jiren whom was more supressed than in episode 110 when he rivalled UI Goku, was the strongest Ki he felt hence 110 Ui Goku is above Kefla. Picoolo statement in Japanese translation seem to imply a more recent form which was SSBBKK. Even if Kefla rivalled normal Kaioken Goku when fatigue she wouldn't even be above SSBKKx20 Goku at SSJ2. Fatigue UI Goku was able to beat her anyways. I don't see how it is wrong to deny SSJ2 Kefla being above 110 UI Goku especially when there's objective reason to. I feel like this was a indirect response to me.