Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Berserker1921 » Sun Jun 25, 2017 6:29 pm

Bullza wrote:If Jiren is the mortal above the God of Destruction how much higher do you think he goes? Merged Zamasu? Super Saiyan Vegito? Sword of Hope Trunks?

They seem too seem to be inbetween God of Destruction and Angel level.
I think Vegito is stronger then Beerus. But not by much. Zamasu was weaker then Vegito. Only reason he lasted because he is half immortal. Trunks spirit sword was barley stronger then Zamasu

Vegito>/=/>Beerus>>Spirit Sword Trunks>Weakened M. Zamasu >Vegeta Blue>Goku blue

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Sun Jun 25, 2017 8:25 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:I doubt that Jiren, if he is the mortal above his God of Destruction, is massively above him. Maybe by a few percent, possibly a small multiplication.
Well Vegito may not be massively above a God of Destruction either. Going by the manga Vegito is maybe stronger than Beerus. Whereas Jiren (if it's him) is above his God of Destruction, one who beat Beerus at arm wrestling.

So Jiren could be above Merged Vegito and Blue Vegito yet.
Also, Future Trunks isn't that strong, it was JUST the Genkidama Sword that allowed him to defeat Merged Zamasu.
I'm not sure how it works exactly but prior to that scene Trunks used his own power to forge the Golden Sword. Then it seemed like he absorbed the Genki Dama into himself and then used his power to create the Genki Dama Sword.

Even without the sword he could have probably have used that power in different ways just like how Goku did in Super Android 13 where he just punched him once and ended him.
Berserker1921 wrote:I don't think Jiren is that mortal.
It'd seem a bit obvious and Dragon Ball is usually unpredictable but nobody else seems like a possibility at all. It's not going to be Caulifla or Kale and they're really the only other two characters outside of the Pride Troopers to get any relevance.

Just looking at all these new characters they don't look important, they look like throwaway characters. Plus Jiren handled that "attack" from the Gods of Destruction with the utmost ease.

If it's not Jiren then I'd have no idea who else it would be.

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GodKaio-Ken » Sun Jun 25, 2017 8:37 pm

Whis statement in regards to Jiren makes no sense. They may have meant to imply Jiren but it actually presents more evidence its not...intentionally or otherwise.

Remember this comes AFTER the exhibition. It would have made more sense for Whis to say "Jiren" or "Universe 11" but he didnt.

Much like the image of Goku flying before the edge of the void when in reality there is no flying I think its possible they intended one thing but presented it entirely wrong to the audience maybe.
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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Mon Jun 26, 2017 12:22 pm

Just watched the subbed version of Episode 96. The narrator does actually say that Golden Frieza powered up dramatically.

Why and how that happened I suppose can be debated but it does look like it's definitely a thing. Which is good I suppose because he really would have needed to if he was supposed to match Goku.

Of course it also means if Golden Frieza powered up dramatically since the Resurrection F saga then SSJB Goku powered up even more dramatically still.

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by LowRyder2005 » Mon Jun 26, 2017 12:54 pm

In both Goku's "you aren't the only one who got stronger" and the narrator's own choice of words everything isn't really intended to be taken literally (or well, not even "literally", just "that way"): Freeza finding a way to keep his power at 100% at all times already constitutes a way to "power-up" dramatically in its own regard, since his 100% was all but a fleeting moment in ROF.

The fact he could finally manage his power efficiently is the only point Freeza makes in the entire episode when explaining, he doesn't ever talk about getting beyond his current power level, when it should be an equally big news - and most likely, something in dire need of exposition/clarification as well, along with "how can Freeza last in his Golden form". I really doubt Freeza getting stronger when being completely unable to normally "train" wouldn't have needed some. I mean, I admit I quite can't see anyone in the audience organically reaching the same conclusion on their own.

Given what the episode showed, we are only told Freeza got more formidable through learning to manage his power in a condition in which he, ostensibly, couldn't improve his form; to me there's almost no reason to believe later statements aren't meant to reflect that.
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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by SansrivaaL » Mon Jun 26, 2017 12:59 pm

KI is based from energy,courage and mind so I was fine with Freeza getting stronger by just meditating or from his views "fighting simulation" of him and Goku.

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Mon Jun 26, 2017 1:15 pm

LowRyder2005 wrote:In both Goku's "you aren't the only one who got stronger" and the narrator's own choice of words everything isn't really intended to be taken literally (or well, not even "literally", just "that way"): Freeza finding a way to keep his power at 100% at all times already constitutes a way to "power-up" dramatically in its own regard, since his 100% was all but a fleeting moment in ROF.

The fact he could finally manage his power efficiently is the only point Freeza makes in the entire episode when explaining, he doesn't ever talk about getting beyond his current power level, when it should be an equally big news - and most likely, something in dire need of exposition/clarification as well, along with "how can Freeza last in his Golden form". I really doubt Freeza getting stronger when being completely unable to normally "train" wouldn't have needed some. I mean, I admit I quite can't see anyone in the audience the same conclusion on their own.

Given what the episode showed, we are only told Freeza got more formidable through learning to manage his power in a condition in which he, ostensibly, couldn't improve his form; to me there's almost no reason to believe later statements aren't meant to reflect that.
Okay then, so does that mean Goku and Gohan learning to control the wild and draining energy of the original SS form didn't increase their power?

Because that's exactly the same thing Freeza did in Hell. Occam's Razor would suggest that, because Freeza solved the issue of his Golden Evolution's stamina and energy control issues, he got stronger.

No need to try and complicate matters further.

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by LowRyder2005 » Mon Jun 26, 2017 1:18 pm

SansrivaaL wrote:KI is based from energy,courage and mind so I was fine with Freeza getting stronger by just meditating or from his views "fighting simulation" of him and Goku.
You are obviously free to give him whatever boost you want, but it's still something that's basically popping out of thin air. "Mind" could also be something that has to do with controlling the ki, and not sheer power ("energy"); and these are only three of the components.

But let's even admit for argument's sake that Freeza got stronger. In-universe, exactly how many people did get substantially stronger through this kind of "meditation", which is again only brought up when related to keeping your mind and control on track (basically, like real life meditation, bar the subversion born from Freeza's murderous intent)? And how stronger would Freeza get? Also, the biggest question: why wouldn't Freeza mention this anywhere and why wouldn't it find a place in the episode synopsis?

If we want to stay grounded in what the episode told us, Freeza is just able to avoid energy consumption, thus becoming "stronger". Stamina is part of what makes any fighter a strong opponent or not.
Other than that the series hadn't really given us any solid proof to start from the fact Goku had to surpass Freeza from ROF. Hence, if Goku isn't stated to have become stronger than the Freeza he would lose against in ROF, the most reasonable explanation is that he's now able to contend/take down a fully powered Freeza with medium-high difficulty (arguably with his regular Blue form, since we know KK double his power) when before he was outmatched, his power gains needing to be reconciled with that notion. Until proven wrong, clearly.
Okay then, so does that mean Goku and Gohan learning to control the wild and draining energy of the original SS form didn't increase their power?

Because that's exactly the same thing Freeza did in Hell. Occam's Razor would suggest that, because Freeza solved the issue of his Golden Evolution's stamina and energy control issues, he got stronger.

No need to try and complicate matters further.
It probably didn't. At the very least it wasn't mentioned anywhere that the mastered Super Saiyan gave them the "boost" you're mentioning here. It was just something that greatly helped them controlling their energy more efficiently (yet again, "stamina issues"). Well, that's what the manga told us directly; Goku's and Gohan's wondrous gains apparently had to do with their heavy training in the ROSAT, not through mastering the Super Saiyan form.

Occam's Razor as far as I'm concerned exactly against what you are arguing, since Freeza and "stamina issues" can easily be intended to be what made him "weaker" as a fighter. From my point of view, it's this talk about Freeza meditating and getting substantially stronger (when it's A. unmentioned, and B. needs some leap in logic), the less viable alternative. The two statements about Freeza getting stronger are easily reconcilable with Freeza's newfound stamina being what makes him a much stauncher fighter. It's Freeza - for some of you fairly dramatically, I guess - improving the sheer size of his natural ki in a way we've never been strictly told it was possible, even when there was a chance to, the less-intuitive explanation. It clearly involves a superior degree of inference and speculation on the viewer's side.

Going back to the Super Saiyan, the same Occam's Razor at hand and if we want to follow the Daizenshuu ad litteram, it speaks of only one multiplier ever for every Super Saiyan, which reflects the one on Namek; being pedantic, there'd really be no room for the mastered Super Saiyan to be above his counterpart in "sheer power" either.

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Mon Jun 26, 2017 2:59 pm

LowRyder2005 wrote:Freeza finding a way to keep his power at 100% at all times already constitutes a way to "power-up" dramatically in its own regard, since his 100% was all but a fleeting moment in ROF.
I guess this is similar to Super Saiyan Blue in manga. Now that Freeza got rid of that form's weakness, his transformation is perfect and more powerful than his "normal" level.

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Mon Jun 26, 2017 3:18 pm

I'd argue that trying to make Freeza's gains into something as "just stamina control" or something else is pointlessly being pedantic and arguing semantics.

What the heck more do people need to be convinced? The narrator says Freeza got stronger, Goku says Freeza got stronger, we have past examples of characters getting stronger by overcoming energy control issues. Why the heck does Freeza need to be the one to confirm he got stronger if others already have?

That'd be equatable to saying that Beerus isn't stronger than a fusion between Goku and Vegeta during BoG because Beerus himself didn't specify it, only Goku did, or saying that Buu didn't actually increase his speed from slimming down because Buu himself didn't specify it, only Goku did.

If one cannot accept the former, then by deductive reasoning, one cannot accept the latter either.

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Marlowe89 » Mon Jun 26, 2017 5:08 pm

The actual line in Episode 96 was "However, having powered up dramatically, he killed the assassins from Universe 9 one after another." -- which to me sounds like it was referring more to Frieza's transformation into Golden Frieza (hence dramatically powering up) and subsequent massacre of the assassins rather than him becoming dramatically stronger since the RoF saga, otherwise the context would have been weird if it was something more along the lines of "Frieza became much stronger in Hell just to kill some lowly assassins that were already much weaker than him to begin with". That is to say, if the line in question was attempting to point out that Frieza killed some puny schmucks from Universe 9, it would have made no sense to mention a vast increase in Frieza's maximum strength.

I want to stress that I'm not opposed to the idea of Golden Frieza being stronger than before, but this is hardly what I'd call proof.

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Mon Jun 26, 2017 5:12 pm

Marlowe89 wrote:The actual line in Episode 96 was "However, having powered up dramatically, he killed the assassins from Universe 9 one after another." -- which to me sounds like it was referring more to Frieza's transformation into Golden Frieza (hence dramatically powering up) and subsequent massacre of the assassins rather than him becoming dramatically stronger since the RoF saga, otherwise the context would have been weird if it was something more along the lines of "Frieza became much stronger in Hell just to kill some lowly assassins that were already much weaker than him to begin with". That is to say, if the line in question was attempting to point out that Frieza killed some puny schmucks from Universe 9, it would have made no sense to mention a vast increase in Frieza's maximum strength.

I want to stress that I'm not opposed to the idea of Golden Frieza being stronger than before, but this is hardly what I'd call proof.
Goku also states that Freeza isn't the only one who got stronger. Coupled with past examples of Freeza's method being used, learning to control the energy drain of a transformation, you'd be hard-pressed to make an argument that he didn't get stronger.

Seriously, Goku lays it out plain as day, and I can't understand why people can't see it.

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by LowRyder2005 » Mon Jun 26, 2017 5:16 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:I'd argue that trying to make Freeza's gains into something as "just stamina control" or something else is pointlessly being pedantic and arguing semantics.

What the heck more do people need to be convinced? The narrator says Freeza got stronger, Goku says Freeza got stronger, we have past examples of characters getting stronger by overcoming energy control issues. Why the heck does Freeza need to be the one to confirm he got stronger if others already have?

That'd be equatable to saying that Beerus isn't stronger than a fusion between Goku and Vegeta during BoG because Beerus himself didn't specify it, only Goku did, or saying that Buu didn't actually increase his speed from slimming down because Buu himself didn't specify it, only Goku did.

If one cannot accept the former, then by deductive reasoning, one cannot accept the latter either.
First off, these are gross generalizations. The comparisons also aren’t really spot-on either; in Beerus’ case Goku states that "he doesn’t think he could win" even if he fused with Vegeta", nothing akin to referring to a "better energy management" solution is present. The Buu's case you presented would in turn be more of a matter of outright doubting Goku's words for some arbitrary reason, not trying to actually put the words in-context.

What is stated in the episode is that Freeza got stronger in the sense he overcame his weakness, that weakness being an improved the capability of fighting with his extremely powerful, golden form indefinitely. This isn't about semantics as much as it is to try and take things in-context and being remotely realistical. Freeza's meditation is stated to have simply avoided the energy consumption issues and nothing more. This is obviously enough to corroborate or give credence to statements such as "Freeza is stronger now": if he can fight at 100% for an entire hour, instead of 100% the first minute and an average of 10% the rest of the time he'll obviously be a much, much more threatening foe and literally output more power than before.

The other explanation involves only extra counterintuitiveness, the whole premises being "meditating gave him control quadrupled (? I mean, it depends on how much Goku improved) the size of his maximum ki from ROF". The counter-arguments are still there: it has never been established meditating could be a source of sheer power increases like you're claiming (which would still need to be quantified, as I don't quite grasp just how much stronger Freeza could get according to you), Freeza doesn't talk about any "sheer" power increase and yet spends considerable time with the exposition pertaining to his improved battery life, the episode doesn't mention meditating as such an alternative to regular "physical" training as a plot-point (when, as I stressed before, it would be much needed in a acceptably explanative synopsis). Finally, to get stronger we already know Freeza had to train like... well, basically everyone in the entire series: moving, and not just by willing himself stronger.
It's nothing short of something that goes against many underlying notions about the series concept of "traning" as a whole, other than being - again - completely gratuitous.
Goku also states that Freeza isn't the only one who got stronger. Coupled with past examples of Freeza's method being used, learning to control the energy drain of a transformation, you'd be hard-pressed to make an argument that he didn't get stronger.

Seriously, Goku lays it out plain as day, and I can't understand why people can't see it.
You have been presented with very reasonable explanations, which as far as I'm concerned still involve much less headscratching than the whole theory Freeza's ki could (drastically? Slightly?) increase when Freeza was doing nothing related to the conventional definition of traning. If you're unwilling to accept them it's your problem, definitely not anything related intrinsically to the nature of the explanations offered.

Also, I'm still waiting for some concrete proof in the source material that "meditating" plainly increased someone's ki from any given amount - I may be willing to re-evaluate your argument if there's something that appears convincing. Until then, I'd rather go with what the episode directly implies.
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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Marlowe89 » Mon Jun 26, 2017 5:25 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:Goku also states that Freeza isn't the only one who got stronger. Coupled with past examples of Freeza's method being used, learning to control the energy drain of a transformation, you'd be hard-pressed to make an argument that he didn't get stronger.
Good thing I wasn't making that argument then, as I'm only discussing that specific line of dialogue.

I'm pretty neutral on the subject as to whether Frieza's maximum power truly increased from a few arcs ago but I'm still not entirely convinced that it did. In particular, I think it's questionable that the previous episode made a much bigger deal of Frieza's stamina improvements rather than any significant power boost, and as I've highlighted above, the narrator's line in the current episode doesn't necessarily mention that either.

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Mon Jun 26, 2017 5:33 pm

LowRyder2005 wrote:
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:I'd argue that trying to make Freeza's gains into something as "just stamina control" or something else is pointlessly being pedantic and arguing semantics.

What the heck more do people need to be convinced? The narrator says Freeza got stronger, Goku says Freeza got stronger, we have past examples of characters getting stronger by overcoming energy control issues. Why the heck does Freeza need to be the one to confirm he got stronger if others already have?

That'd be equatable to saying that Beerus isn't stronger than a fusion between Goku and Vegeta during BoG because Beerus himself didn't specify it, only Goku did, or saying that Buu didn't actually increase his speed from slimming down because Buu himself didn't specify it, only Goku did.

If one cannot accept the former, then by deductive reasoning, one cannot accept the latter either.
First off, these are gross generalizations. The comparisons also aren’t really spot-on either; in Beerus’ case Goku states that "he doesn’t think he could win" even if he fused with Vegeta", nothing akin to referring to a "better energy management" solution is present. The Buu's case you presented would in turn be more of a matter of outright doubting Goku's words for some arbitrary reason, not trying to actually put the words in-context.

What is stated in the episode is that Freeza got stronger in the sense he overcame his weakness, that weakness being an improved the capability of fighting with his extremely powerful, golden form indefinitely. This isn't about semantics as much as it is to try and take things in-context and being remotely realistical. Freeza's meditation is stated to have simply avoided the energy consumption issues and nothing more. This is obviously enough to corroborate or give credence to statements such as "Freeza is stronger now": if he can fight at 100% for an entire hour, instead of 100% the first minute and an average of 10% the rest of the time he'll obviously be a much, much more threatening foe and literally output more power than before.

The other explanation involves only extra counterintuitiveness, the whole premises being "meditating gave him control quadrupled (? I mean, it depends on how much Goku improved) the size of his maximum ki from ROF". The counter-arguments are still there: it has never been established meditating could be a source of sheer power increases like you're claiming (which would still need to be quantified, as I don't quite grasp just how much stronger Freeza could get according to you), Freeza doesn't talk about any "sheer" power increase and yet spends considerable time with the exposition pertaining to his improved battery life, the episode doesn't mention meditating as such an alternative to regular "physical" training as a plot-point (when, as I stressed before, it would be much needed in a acceptably explanative synopsis). Finally, to get stronger we already know Freeza had to train like... well, basically everyone in the entire series: moving, and not just by willing himself stronger.
It's nothing short of something that goes against many underlying notions about the series concept of "traning" as a whole, other than being - again - completely gratuitous.
Okay then, so why the heck did Goku say that Freeza wasn't the only one who got stronger? Hmm? According to the anime, he HAS used his full-power before. Is he NOT stronger than that full-power before? Thus proving Goku is full of sh*t and lying?

Why does Goku's line need to be interpreted as anything other than "yeah, you got stronger from doing what you did in Hell"? This is needlessly complicated, and precedence, ironically, doesn't take precedence over clear-and-cut statements. You know what also has never been mentioned as a thing before but is apparently a long-time thing? That Saiyans get stronger as they fight, something introduced in the new series when it has never been a thing before. Also introduced: Gohan got strong enough to have power rivaling his father in a day of training after regaining Ultimate, as explicitly said by the narrator as footage of him taking on SSB Goku was played during this statement. The context, based on this narration and footage used, is that Gohan did indeed get strong enough to rival Goku in SSB.

As well, FPSS Goku and Gohan are strong enough that they can take on Perfect Cell, when SS Grade 2/3 Vegeta/Future Trunks failed to do so. They learned to minimize SS's stamina drain, just like Freeza did, and did so within a year compared to the MULTIPLE years that Freeza has spent in Hell, and that's not counting Freeza stating himself that he could get much stronger when Goku first visited him in Hell, which is later proven when Goku recognizes that, yes, he DID get stronger, but so did Goku himself.

[Edit]: Extra context. Goku shudders when Freeza displays his Golden Evolution's energy control and goes on a spree of murder, when he didn't do so when he first fought Golden Freeza.

Either Goku's wrong, or he's right. There are no ifs, ands, or buts about it. Unless him or someone else points out he was wrong like during the Buu Saga, I'm inclined to believe him.

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by LowRyder2005 » Mon Jun 26, 2017 5:55 pm

I have already answered above: Goku got stronger because he trained. Freeza learning to mantain his power output. Freeza is, thus, stronger than before. This Freeza wouldn't have lost against SSB Goku from ROF, hence this Freeza is clearly a "stronger" fighter. I don't understand what is hard to grasp about such an elementary explanation. In the context of the episode no one talks about a "power level" increase, it's something you are deducing but that still appears improbable for other factors.
You keep arguing that your argument is in the sake of simplicity, and yet it's based on anything but a simple premise: Freeza increasing his power in a way we've never know it was possible, that the episode doesn't even remotely address.

I believe I have also already addressed your point about the mastered Super Saiyan. No, it's not ever mentioned they got a "stronger" Super Saiyan through meditation in the way you're intending it (if it was your point, I'm honestly having a hard time following your claims), just a more efficient one. This is common knowledge (in fact I'm fairly surprised it's been brought up here); you'd do well to read one of the many threads on the argument if it's still unclear to you. It's also never stated that meditating gave them a result similar to physical types of training. Just that they could reach, again, a serene mindset which made them capable of using their Super Saiyan for extended periods of time. The purely power-related aspect clearly appear to be something they gained from training in the ROSAT.
Gohan got strong enough to have power rivaling his father in a day of training after regaining Ultimate, as explicitly said by the narrator as footage of him taking on SSB Goku was played during this statement. The context, based on this narration and footage used, is that Gohan did indeed get strong enough to rival Goku in SSB.
I don't understand how this is supposed to be related to the matter of proving meditation can increase one's own ki, but it's also debatable since Gohan already doesn't "rival" his father in the purest sense. At bare minum, a fully powered Goku can take Gohan down with ease; so the narrator is referring to some other form of Goku which could realistically be something even below SSB. I have Gohan in-between Super Saiyan 2 and Super Saiyan 3 Goku, for one, and I certainly don't feel like I'm not giving Gohan's justice.
Other than jumping to conclusions, I'd say you'd do well to take the narration in Super with an added grain of salt. Or according to you, is Roshi is stronger than the likes of Goten and Trunks, or even Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks? Because the team was said to be comprised of the "strongest" fighters in the universe... which is most likely not referring to sheer strength, but only because they're the most suitable for that kind of battle.
Extra context. Goku shudders when Freeza displays his Golden Evolution's energy control and goes on a spree of murder, when he didn't do so when he first fought Golden Freeza.
This also happens immediately after Freeza's speech has revelead he can mantain his form as long as he wants, which may just be enough to make Goku feel unconfortable.
Either Goku's wrong, or he's right. There are no ifs, ands, or buts about it. Unless him or someone else points out he was wrong like during the Buu Saga, I'm inclined to believe him.
That's kinda the idea since nobody here, most certainly not me, is arguing he's wrong or that we don't have to agree with him. This is clearly a matter of different and possibly feasible ways in which we're reconciling what was said by Goku; given what we've been told before in the same episode and the entire series, one conclusion is, however, simply far-fetched compared to the other.
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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Mon Jun 26, 2017 6:06 pm

Then what the f**k are you arguing about? You say Freeza hasn't gotten stronger, yet also agree with Goku that he has. You've deductively contradicted yourself by not agreeing with a power increase in the purest sense, even though that's the simplest and most literal interpretation for Goku saying that Freeza got stronger, because that's exactly what was said. If you wanna debate Crunchyroll's subtitles on Goku's dialogue then and want to determine if it's accurate or not based on interpretation by Japanese-literate folks, then do so.

I'm not saying that Freeza's increase is gigantic, nor trying to argue for his method. Because NONE OF THAT MATTERS. It's been made plain as day that he got stronger, end of story. We don't need to jump through hoops to justify it and/or refute, because guess what? The characters already made that distinction for us.

If you wanna argue by how much stronger he got, by all means, do so. But to refute what was plainly said on the basis of things like "this method hasn't worked like that before" or "he didn't draw attention to power increases, just his newfound energy control" is to argue an irrelevant point, because that one statement makes all of that moot.

Goku Black got stronger too after being beaten down by SSB Vegeta. How did he do so? He harnessed his rage at mortals. You know how else he got stronger? Goku inflicting pain on him. We've never seen anyone get stronger through simply being damaged, so it must not actually work then-- OH WAIT, IT DID.

This whole argument has been predicated on the notion that Goku's statement somehow means anything other than the obvious, based solely on the fact that Freeza himself didn't draw attention to this.

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by LowRyder2005 » Mon Jun 26, 2017 6:28 pm

Freeza's meditation is stated to have simply avoided the energy consumption issues and nothing more. This is obviously enough to corroborate or give credence to statements such as "Freeza is stronger now": if he can fight at 100% for an entire hour, instead of 100% the first minute and an average of 10% the rest of the time he'll obviously be a much, much more threatening foe and literally output more power than before.
I can't dumb down my explanation any further. Is Freeza's power output "stronger" in the scenario above? Yep. Is it enough for other characters to call him "stronger"? Very possibly so.
So, again, what fundamentally irreconcilable issue do you take with the explanation above?

Oh, and also, kindly chill. There's no reason to get worked up over such a trifling matter for anyone.

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PerhapsTheOtherOne
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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Mon Jun 26, 2017 6:38 pm

LowRyder2005 wrote:
Freeza's meditation is stated to have simply avoided the energy consumption issues. This is obviously enough to corroborate or give credence to statements such as "Freeza is stronger now": if he can fight at 100% for an entire hour, instead of 100% the first minute and an average of 10% the rest of the time he'll obviously be a much, much more threatening foe and literally output more power than before.
I can't dumb down my explanation any further. Is Freeza's power output "stronger" in the scenario above? Yep. Is it enough for other characters to call him "stronger"? Very possibly so.

So, again, what fundamentally irreconcilable issue do you take with the explanation above?
Because it just means that he can fight at full power, not that his power has increased. Nothing about that actually mentions a power increase, merely power maintenance. Goku has fought Freeza at full power before, as Freeza himself made clear during that arc, and yet he still states that Freeza's gotten stronger. I take issue with your position because it presupposes that Goku's wording isn't exact and literal like his dialogue ALWAYS IS. People rag on Goku's simplistic character in Super, but it DOES mean that he's generally to be taken quite literally when he says things.

You know what he didn't say? That Freeza could fight at full-power without issue. Because Freeza already told us this earlier, so Goku doesn't need to reiterate it for the audience. What he DOES clarify is that Freeza has gotten powerful enough that he can take on Goku, even after the latter's gains since he first fought Golden Freeza.

I've gotten into arguments for trying to argue that SSB is more than just "SS who is a Saiyan with the power of SSG", more than just that exact wording, including many people in this very thread. And now that I'm just going with the most literal interpretation of that line of dialogue, here I am in another argument on the other side of the coin. The irony stings.

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Marlowe89 » Mon Jun 26, 2017 6:54 pm

I don't think it particularly matters either way.

If Frieza's max power didn't increase substantially per se and he instead merely learned how to retain his stamina to fight at a constant 100% without it dropping off instantly, it wouldn't have been anything unlike Complete Super Saiyan Blue vs. regular Super Saiyan Blue in the manga -- and I think most people would concur that the former is a "stronger" form.

On the other hand, if Frieza's max strength did increase substantially then the result is just the same. In both cases, he's fighting at a significantly higher level of power than we saw him outputting during RoF and Goku caught up with it.

I suppose the only consequence of note is whether Frieza actually gained a whole lot of power simply from mental training, which admittedly isn't easy to reconcile, but the Super anime in general is often pretty vague about this kind of stuff anyway.
Last edited by Marlowe89 on Mon Jun 26, 2017 7:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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