Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

They KNOW that because when Champa was going to kill his team for losing he said...




Showing that he was more then confident he could destroy Hit and Goku, who had just displayed his full power of SSBKK x10. Since its been shown that Beerus and Champa are practically equals in the anime with the only difference beings Champa haveing poor stamina due to his poor diet and laziness, Beerus is stronger then SSBKK.

He isn't even talking about Goku. He's talking about cabba hence him just saying "Super Saiyan". He was going to fight his team because they lost, not Goku.

Sure and thats why Beerus said this...

https://youtu.be/XePpSpatEj4?t=73

Plus if SSBKK x10 was not enough to finish of Hit...what's good's it gonna do against Champa, and by extention Beerus?

The only character stated to bee even a threat to Beerus, who has NEVER USED HIS FULL POWER, was Vegito Blue in the manga. Comapred to that SSBKK is childs play.

So what? What about that says that beerus is stronger than kaioken. It just means that he's stronger than Goku. Kaioken Goku and hit scared Champa and had him sweating. Kaioken had beerus sweating as well at only x2.

Kaioken is just a technique. It's not gokus full power and isn't referred to as his full power in any source while Ssb is. His full power is Ssb which is significantly weaker than beerus. Would kaioken last long enough to beat either of them? Probably not, though he could briefly overpower them with it like with merged zamasu whom is stronger than both of them.

[Lord Frieza]

He isn't even talking about Goku. He's talking about cabba hence him just saying "Super Saiyan". He was going to fight his team because they lost, not Goku.

Sure and thats why Beerus said this...

https://youtu.be/XePpSpatEj4?t=73

Plus if SSBKK x10 was not enough to finish of Hit...what's good's it gonna do against Champa, and by extention Beerus?

The only character stated to bee even a threat to Beerus, who has NEVER USED HIS FULL POWER, was Vegito Blue in the manga. Comapred to that SSBKK is childs play.

So what? What about that says that beerus is stronger than kaioken. It just means that he's stronger than Goku. Kaioken Goku and hit scared Champa and had him sweating. Kaioken had beerus sweating as well at only x2.

Kaioken is just a technique. It's not gokus full power and isn't referred to as his full power in any source while Ssb is. His full power is Ssb which is significantly weaker than beerus. Would kaioken last long enough to beat either of them? Probably not, though he could briefly overpower them with it like with merged zamasu whom is stronger than both of them.

I'm hearing a lot of theory and little evidence here.

The real kicker though is that as of this point, the only person on stated to be on Beerus's level is Manga Vegito, who is the result of Potaro fusion. That outclasses KKx10 by a pretty noticable amount.

But in both that case and yours, its all done in comparisson to characters who have never used their full power. So until you have got some hard evidence its still Beerus = Champa < SSBKK X10.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

Sure and thats why Beerus said this...

https://youtu.be/XePpSpatEj4?t=73

Plus if SSBKK x10 was not enough to finish of Hit...what's good's it gonna do against Champa, and by extention Beerus?

The only character stated to bee even a threat to Beerus, who has NEVER USED HIS FULL POWER, was Vegito Blue in the manga. Comapred to that SSBKK is childs play.

So what? What about that says that beerus is stronger than kaioken. It just means that he's stronger than Goku. Kaioken Goku and hit scared Champa and had him sweating. Kaioken had beerus sweating as well at only x2.

Kaioken is just a technique. It's not gokus full power and isn't referred to as his full power in any source while Ssb is. His full power is Ssb which is significantly weaker than beerus. Would kaioken last long enough to beat either of them? Probably not, though he could briefly overpower them with it like with merged zamasu whom is stronger than both of them.

I'm hearing a lot of theory and little evidence here.

The real kicker though is that as of this point, the only person on stated to be on Beerus's level is Manga Vegito, who is the result of Potaro fusion. That outclasses KKx10 by a pretty noticable amount.

But in both that case and yours, its all done in comparisson to characters who have never used their full power. So until you have got some hard evidence its still Beerus = Champa < SSBKK X10.

Your argument isnt based on anything in the first place, so saying I have little evidence is laughable.

Nothing I said is a theory. Kaioken is never referred to as gokus pinnacle. Ssb is since the former is just a technique. Otherwise Goku and freeza would've never been stated to be equals.

Kaiokenx2 making beerus sweat and Hit and Goku scaring Champa is plenty evidence. Those instances fit perfectly with toriyamas 6-10-15 scale which ends this discussion by itself.

[Bullza]

It's a problem because Kuririn and 18 are shown to be comparable to base Goku.

Krillin was shown to be comparable to Super Saiyan Blue Goku when they exchanged Kamehameha's. He was probably just holding back. Krillin fought Gohan and said he wasn't as strong as him and Goku was stronger than him at that point.

Kinda hard to misinterpret instances where Goku absorbs the power of Super Saiyan God against Beerus, moves so quickly against Final Form Frieza that nobody can see his movements, calls himself a "Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God" while describing Blue to be the Super Saiyan level of that, etc.

Well that's easily explained away. During his fight with Beerus they said the power of Super Saiyan God was still burning inside him but then it must have faded away after the fight which is why he had to learn to achieve that power again without the ritual.

Him being super fast was just because he got really strong through training like Vegeta.

Him being a Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God would just be referring to Super Saiyan God specifically. Not a Base form that is as strong as that perhaps unlike the movie.

Because like I pointed out before, Whis said that Beerus' castle was the power of a God but Goku and Vegeta were only as much as a tree so they weren't as strong as a God when not in a God form from the looks of it.

[Lord Frieza]

So what? What about that says that beerus is stronger than kaioken. It just means that he's stronger than Goku. Kaioken Goku and hit scared Champa and had him sweating. Kaioken had beerus sweating as well at only x2.

Kaioken is just a technique. It's not gokus full power and isn't referred to as his full power in any source while Ssb is. His full power is Ssb which is significantly weaker than beerus. Would kaioken last long enough to beat either of them? Probably not, though he could briefly overpower them with it like with merged zamasu whom is stronger than both of them.

I'm hearing a lot of theory and little evidence here.

The real kicker though is that as of this point, the only person on stated to be on Beerus's level is Manga Vegito, who is the result of Potaro fusion. That outclasses KKx10 by a pretty noticable amount.

But in both that case and yours, its all done in comparisson to characters who have never used their full power. So until you have got some hard evidence its still Beerus = Champa < SSBKK X10.

Your argument isnt based on anything in the first place, so saying I have little evidence is laughable.

Nothing I said is a theory. Kaioken is never referred to as gokus pinnacle. Ssb is since the former is just a technique. Otherwise Goku and freeza would've never been stated to be equals.

Kaiokenx2 making beerus sweat and Hit and Goku scaring Champa is plenty evidence. Those instances fit perfectly with toriyamas 6-10-15 scale which ends this discussion by itself.

HAHAHAHAHA!!!!! Your still using that outdated scale! Lol...I'm sorry but thats really funny. No wander your logic is wrong. The BoG's arc through out that scale long ago, along with other idea's like Goku never using SS2 & 3 again and Saiyan Beyond God.

Beerus power in Super has been drastically magnified, SSG Goku is never stated to even be close to his 70% in the anime. All thats stuff about using his close to full power is just Beerus bullshiting Goku to get him to fight harder until he drops the pretence and gets serues to stop universal destruction.

Also KK is not Goku's pinnical? What the hell are you talking about? It dose not matter if its a transformastion or not SSBKK x10 is the the pinical of Goku's power. The abilities boost his power, how cann you not take that into account in reguards to the wider universe, why do you think litraraly everyone classes Frieza below Goku in the ToP? Becuse he's more powerful due to KK. When Gohan asked hsi father to go all out Goku used KK for crying out loud.

and he's the real finisher, Goku still has not beaten Beerus in a fight nor had the guts to challang him, I dont need any more proof then that.

But to add a second finisher Potaro < KK, SSB Vegito might be stronger then Beerus, Beerus still has yet to show his full power. Goku with KK not even in the ball park. Thats simple logic.

[Marlowe89]

Well that's easily explained away. During his fight with Beerus they said the power of Super Saiyan God was still burning inside him but then it must have faded away after the fight which is why he had to learn to achieve that power again without the ritual.

I wouldn't say that's "easily" explained away when there's nothing in the show that would directly imply such speculation. You insinuated that an in-universe explanation isn't needed, but is that not exactly what that would be? It comes across as fanon conjecture to me.

Him being a Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God would just be referring to Super Saiyan God specifically. Not a Base form that is as strong as that perhaps unlike the movie.

The problem is that exact statement was present in the original RoF film literally word-for-word, and was clearly meant to mirror what other materials had corroborated at the time. I suppose you could chalk this line up to another outlier if you wanted to maintain that viewpoint, but it's still odd that they would have included it in the first place.

I don't know, I just don't personally see the point in trying to reconcile what seems to be two completely different narrative styles on the surface. I guess we'll see though.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

I'm hearing a lot of theory and little evidence here.

The real kicker though is that as of this point, the only person on stated to be on Beerus's level is Manga Vegito, who is the result of Potaro fusion. That outclasses KKx10 by a pretty noticable amount.

But in both that case and yours, its all done in comparisson to characters who have never used their full power. So until you have got some hard evidence its still Beerus = Champa < SSBKK X10.

Your argument isnt based on anything in the first place, so saying I have little evidence is laughable.

Nothing I said is a theory. Kaioken is never referred to as gokus pinnacle. Ssb is since the former is just a technique. Otherwise Goku and freeza would've never been stated to be equals.

Kaiokenx2 making beerus sweat and Hit and Goku scaring Champa is plenty evidence. Those instances fit perfectly with toriyamas 6-10-15 scale which ends this discussion by itself.

HAHAHAHAHA!!!!! Your still using that outdated scale! Lol...I'm sorry but thats really funny. No wander your logic is wrong. The BoG's arc through out that scale long ago, along with other idea's like Goku never using SS2 & 3 again and Saiyan Beyond God.

Beerus power in Super has been drastically magnified, SSG Goku is never stated to even be close to his 70% in the anime. All thats stuff about using his close to full power is just Beerus bullshiting Goku to get him to fight harder until he drops the pretence and gets serues to stop universal destruction.

Also KK is not Goku's pinnical? What the hell are you talking about? It dose not matter if its a transformastion or not SSBKK x10 is the the pinical of Goku's power. The abilities boost his power, how cann you not take that into account in reguards to the wider universe, why do you think litraraly everyone classes Frieza below Goku in the ToP? Becuse he's more powerful due to KK. When Gohan asked hsi father to go all out Goku used KK for crying out loud.

and he's the real finisher, Goku still has not beaten Beerus in a fight nor had the guts to challang him, I dont need any more proof then that.

Yeah, no. The scale isn't outdated just because you want it to be.
Vegeta forced beerus to use 10%, so that once again reinforces the scale that toriyamas made.

No kaioken isn't gokus pinnacle. It's just a technique. The same way that the Kamehameha isn't gokus pinnacle. Freeza is stated to be equal to Goku in the show itself and in official material. Hence nowhere is kaioken representative of gokus full power and it's never been labeled as such in any material.
As of now Goku is weaker than beerus and the fact that Goku can temporarily be stronger than him with kaioken doesn't change that hierarchy.

[Lord Frieza]

Your argument isnt based on anything in the first place, so saying I have little evidence is laughable.

Nothing I said is a theory. Kaioken is never referred to as gokus pinnacle. Ssb is since the former is just a technique. Otherwise Goku and freeza would've never been stated to be equals.

Kaiokenx2 making beerus sweat and Hit and Goku scaring Champa is plenty evidence. Those instances fit perfectly with toriyamas 6-10-15 scale which ends this discussion by itself.

HAHAHAHAHA!!!!! Your still using that outdated scale! Lol...I'm sorry but thats really funny. No wander your logic is wrong. The BoG's arc through out that scale long ago, along with other idea's like Goku never using SS2 & 3 again and Saiyan Beyond God.

Beerus power in Super has been drastically magnified, SSG Goku is never stated to even be close to his 70% in the anime. All thats stuff about using his close to full power is just Beerus bullshiting Goku to get him to fight harder until he drops the pretence and gets serues to stop universal destruction.

Also KK is not Goku's pinnical? What the hell are you talking about? It dose not matter if its a transformastion or not SSBKK x10 is the the pinical of Goku's power. The abilities boost his power, how cann you not take that into account in reguards to the wider universe, why do you think litraraly everyone classes Frieza below Goku in the ToP? Becuse he's more powerful due to KK. When Gohan asked hsi father to go all out Goku used KK for crying out loud.

and he's the real finisher, Goku still has not beaten Beerus in a fight nor had the guts to challang him, I dont need any more proof then that.

Yeah, no. The scale isn't outdated just because you want it to be.
Vegeta forced beerus to use 10%, so that once again reinforces the scale that toriyamas made.

No kaioken isn't gokus pinnacle. It's just a technique. The same way that the Kamehameha isn't gokus pinnacle. Freeza is stated to be equal to Goku in the show itself and in official material. Hence nowhere is kaioken representative of gokus full power and it's never been labeled as such in any material.
As of now Goku is weaker than beerus and the fact that Goku can temporarily be stronger than him with kaioken doesn't change that hierarchy.

Point A - No, statment from a creator who changes his mind and alters his work on the fly from a few years ago is not suddenly relevent, especially after Super has altered or done stuff in total contradiction to everything stated around movies releases, just becuse you want it to. Sorry but BoG the movie is a different continuity to the anime and is dose not fit just because you ant it to. So far the only characater in any continuity whos power comes close to Beerus's, and might surpass it, is Manga Vegeto. None else.

Point B - I'd say I have no words to full incapsulate how backwards that logic is but I'd be lying. Thats illogical, or warped logic at best. It makes zero differen if its a technique or not when the technique foricbly boost the users power level. Its littaraly no differen then his power level altering when turning his transfromastions on and off. Your makeing up rules to suit you prefered narrivetive and scaling and its at a total contradiction to the system vertually every other person I have ever deiscussed this subject with uses.

In the face of such....unusial logic; I'm calling it quits here. Bye.

[Doctor.]

Does Rosé have no stamina drain? I mean, Black just keeps the form active all the time without resting.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Does Rosé have no stamina drain? I mean, Black just keeps the form active all the time without resting.

A point I've seen brought up (and one I've thought of myself before) is that Black fused with Future Zamasu in SSR. Like any SS form, it almost certainly has some kind of drain to it, no matter how reduced it might be. Even FPSS will drain stamina, it just does it very efficiently.

Elder Kai himself said that fusing whilst transformed would have negative consequences on the new being. Thus, when Merged Zamasu was born, he was stuck with permanent stamina drain that potentially exacerbated his unstable fusion. This is headcanon, but it's pretty logical headcanon.

[Marlowe89]

Does Rosé have no stamina drain? I mean, Black just keeps the form active all the time without resting.

If it counts, we do see him resting in base while he's relaxing with Zamasu at their cabin. This was a post-Rosé scene too.

[Lord Frieza]

Does Rosé have no stamina drain? I mean, Black just keeps the form active all the time without resting.

A point I've seen brought up (and one I've thought of myself before) is that Black fused with Future Zamasu in SSR. Like any SS form, it almost certainly has some kind of drain to it, no matter how reduced it might be. Even FPSS will drain stamina, it just does it very efficiently.

Elder Kai himself said that fusing whilst transformed would have negative consequences on the new being. Thus, when Merged Zamasu was born, he was stuck with permanent stamina drain that potentially exacerbated his unstable fusion. This is headcanon, but it's pretty logical headcanon.

I thought that might be the case to, thats why, befor the retcon, Elder Kai told Goku not to fuse as a SS3 as it would shorten his life, So its not all headcannon on your part.

For what should be the supreme god, that fusion is a mess.

[Doctor.]

Does Rosé have no stamina drain? I mean, Black just keeps the form active all the time without resting.

If it counts, we do see him resting in base while he's relaxing with Zamasu at their cabin. This was a post-Rosé scene too.

And then he goes Rosé just to show it off.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Does Rosé have no stamina drain? I mean, Black just keeps the form active all the time without resting.

If it counts, we do see him resting in base while he's relaxing with Zamasu at their cabin. This was a post-Rosé scene too.

And then he goes Rosé just to show it off.

Well, simply transforming into a SS of some kind isn't what drains stamina the most for the Saiyans. That's only with SSB in the manga, and that's to do with the form's power, not its stamina.

[Lord Frieza]

To be fair anime Black dose not conform to a lot of things the saiyans normally deal with.

He has super zenkai, he dose not have other SS forms it would seem and I would not be shocked if his Rosie form dose not confrom to the same limits as Blue dose.

[BlueBasilisk]

Does Rosé have no stamina drain? I mean, Black just keeps the form active all the time without resting.

I wonder if it works differently for Black/Zamasu since he naturally has divine ki?

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

Probably because zamasus ki control abilities far surpass any mortal due to him being a god and a prodigy as well.

Rose doesn't seem to drain him and he can make a sword variants using the ki unlike Goku and vegeta. Though I don't think this is stated.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Probably because zamasus ki control abilities far surpass any mortal due to him being a god and a prodigy as well.

Rose doesn't seem to drain him and he can make a sword variants using the ki unlike Goku and vegeta. Though I don't think this is stated.

I think the blades are mostly a preference for Zamasu/Black. We see that his present counterpart liked to use Ki-baldes, though not solid ones that actually look like blades. Given how it's like creating a Kienzien around your hand, I'd assume the technique requires a little bit of Ki finesse, though not massive amounts.

Future Trunks could make a Ki sword, and he actively channels his Ki into his blade when he fights.

[Lord Beerus]

The entire thing is a mess. My theory has always been.....

SSG was invented for BoG, afterwards Toriyama seem to have intended to have Goku and SS boosted and drop all other forms. Since such an idea did not go over well with Toei, as it would cost them money on merchandise, SSB was created to meet them half-way. An alternate, god version of SS with a cool new aura to sell merch. This is also were Saiyan Beyond God first poped up thanks to Heroes, which indicated an increase in base form power.

But when we hit Super, there seem to have been a very big change or someone messed up. This started in the U6 arc with Goku going SS, a form that should have been replaced by SSB. Thus the whole thing feel apart from there with Goku getting back all his lesser froms, which were also said would be dropped, Saiyan Beyond God got the shaft but since non of this was clear the two-base theory was invented by a, understandably, very confused fan-base.

Black didn't help matters as he did not have SS froms, instead he just powered up to a more godly aura then then Rose. Which was the spirit of what was ment to happen to Goku post BoG.

Basically its been one big F@#k UP.

I agree the whole thing is a much bigger mess than it needed to be. And in my opinion, it all comes down to Toriyama being indecisive on how strong he wanted Goku and Vegeta to be from Resurrection F and beyond.

I think the golden SSJ forms returning after the events of Battle Of Gods was a last minute decision on Toriyama's part to keep Goku and Vegeta below Beerus, as that is his current intention with the current power hierarchy. It caught Toei and Toyotaro incredibly off guard. But Toei got fucked over the hardest by this because this change in the power scaling because it happened right after the events of Resurrection F. And by that time, Toei already had several episodes scripted, or at the very least planned, based off of Toriyama's previous mentality where Goku and Vegeta in their base forms were incredibly strong and arguably around the same strength as SSJG. So they pretty much had to roll with that concept until the Future Trunks arc happened. And that arc in itself threw an almighty spanner in the works with their approach to battle powers based off of the plot outline from Toriyama. So they had no other choice but to quietly retcon Goku and Vegeta's strength to the needs of the narrative.

Toyotaro's role with manga provided him way more flexibility to handle the scenario. But even he didn't handle it gracefully because nothing has still contradicted or explained what we saw in chapter five of the manga with Goku practically no-selling a ki-blast at point blank range from SSJB after the events of Resurrection F in-universe.

It's all a combination case of lack of proper communication, along with Toriyama having a very late change of heart in the perspective for how he thought the narrative should have been handled. Toriyama obviously wanted to bring back the golden SSJ forms, even though originally stated he didn't think Goku would need to transform into SSJ2/3 anymore after the events of BOG. But bringing back SSJ/SSJ2/SSJ3 was in the plot outline, so neither Toei or Toyotaro could ignore it and just had to find a way to roll with it.

[Bullza]

You insinuated that an in-universe explanation isn't needed, but is that not exactly what that would be? It comes across as fanon conjecture to me.

Well I'd say the middle part is.

We know that Super Saiyan Goku didn't lose any strength reverting from Super Saiyan God. Beerus still continued to refer to him as a Super Saiyan God (when he wasn't) and Beerus also said that God's Crimson Radiance still burned brightly in him or something like that.

And then there was Whis saying they're not as powerful as a God. Then King Kai later said that Goku had learned to become a Super Saiyan God on his own questioning what kind of training he must have done and Goku tells Frieza he did some brutal training upon showing him his Godly form.

So it would suggest that sometime after he fought Beerus he no longer freely had access to that power. Why that happened I couldn't say that's what it seems like.