Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[BlueVegerot]

Sure, but what DOES make sense is that Shin never felt anything like Jiren before. Even when he's been with Beerus and Whis.

Do you think Whis and Beerus are fully charged up in their normal lives? Whis never fights and Beerus does nothing either

[Ziegander]

Jirens power is incomprehensible to her. You're playing with the wording at this point. Vados stating that Jirens power is incomprehensible means the exact same thing as "Jirens power is incomprehensible to me". She thinks that Jirens power is beyond comprehension, otherwise she never would have said it in the first place.

Before I go into any detail about this, let's just remember, you're using the most literal interpretation of an English phrase that has been hastily translated from its original Japanese to try and prove an important plot point about the series that should stand regardless of what language it is spoken in. Just think about why that might not work as well as you like.

"His power is incomprehensible," is the same as saying, "Jiren's power is incomprehensible to me," yes, but also the same as if she had said, "I can't comprehend how Jiren has such a power!" So, if you want to play with words, let's play with words. "His power is incomprehensible," could mean, literally, that Vados cannot mentally fathom the power itself (and I'll come back to this in a moment*), OR it could also mean that she simply can't understand how he is able to have the power that he does.

If I watch a man shoot two birds with a single bullet, I might exclaim, "That shot was unbelievable!" That doesn't mean that I literally don't believe it just happened, or that I don't believe a shot like that is actually possible to make. In fact, with social context, it can be normally assumed when someone utters such a thing that what they actually mean is, "I can't believe you just made that shot, but you did, amazing!" See what I'm getting at?

*Even if Vados literally meant that she could not comprehend Jiren's power, that in itself doesn't mean that she is unable to comprehend a power greater than her own, in fact the very idea that she can't makes no sense given the existence of the Daishinkan, the Attendants, and the Zenos themselves. It only means that she cannot comprehend Jiren's power, specifically. Something about Jiren's power does not make sense to her. It could be that she senses far less power than he is clearly putting out, it could be that it feels different than mortal ki to her, even perhaps that it feels different from any ki she's ever felt. Different does not mean greater. It could even mean that she doesn't understand how Jiren is using his power, maybe something about his fighting style, his techniques, or his ki manipulation is, for whatever reason, beyond her comprehension. None of those conclusions necessarily mean that Jiren has a level of power that is greater than Vados can comprehend.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

The statement doesn't logically equate to what your saying. Vados didn't state that she couldn't comprehend how jiren has the power.

The subject is Jirens power, therefore the power itself is what's beyond her comprehension. There's no ground for your argument to go anywhere. Nothing implies that Vados has a full understanding of the grand priest or Zenos power anyways.

The only subject ever brought up is Jirens raw power. Jiren being stated to be in a class of his own by marcarita and being so strong that his strength transcends time makes it very obvious that the only thing that matters here is raw power. Nothing in the story supports this notion that jiren is making his ki hard to read or whatever you're trying to say.

[Ziegander]

The statement doesn't logically equate to what your saying. Vados didn't state that she couldn't comprehend how jiren has the power.

Vados also didn't state that she is unable to comprehend the scope of Jiren's power either. You're using one, hasty translation from Japanese to English to then make the most literal interpretation of one phrase, the English version, and trying to use that linguistics-reliant interpretation to make a binding, factual statement on the plotline of Dragon Ball Super regardless of language. It doesn't work like that. The phrase "His power is incomprehensible," doesn't have only one possible meaning, even within the context of that scene.

The subject is Jirens power, therefore the power itself is what's beyond her comprehension. There's no ground for your argument to go anywhere. Nothing implies that Vados has a full understanding of the grand priest or Zenos power anyways.

The only subject ever brought up is Jirens raw power. Jiren being stated to be in a class of his own by marcarita and being so strong that his strength transcends time makes it very obvious that the only thing that matters here is raw power. Nothing in the story supports this notion that jiren is making his ki hard to read or whatever you're trying to say.

The power itself is not necessarily what is beyond her comprehension, that's your interpretation of the English translation of the scene. As I illustrated, not only are there multiple ways to interpret that line, but even if we do interpret the line the one way you choose to there are still multiple meanings that can be derived from it. Yet again, when Marcarita says that Jiren is in a class of his own, she could very literally mean he is in a class that is literally apart from all other living beings, and if that's what you're suggesting, then you'd be suggesting that Marcarita thinks Jiren (and his power) is in a class of power not even the Daishinkan or Zenos can reach, which seems incredulous, OR she could mean that Jiren is in a class among mortals all to himself. The statement that his strength transcends Time doesn't make anything obvious at all, we have no idea if Angels or Gods of Destruction have powers that transcend Time or not, so the statement means nothing except in reference to the other mortals.

Nothing in the story supports the notion that Vados is unable to comprehend Jiren's power because it is somehow on a scale of reckoning that is so far beyond Vados' own power that she finds herself hopelessly unable to even attempt to understand it either. That's your interpretation. I'm not suggesting Jiren is making his ki hard to read or anything. All I'm saying is that those are other ways of interpreting what Vados said even if we have to work from the understanding that Vados means she cannot actually comprehend the power Jiren has rather than using some other interpretation of her phrase that, regardless of what you insist upon, would be equally valid to draw conclusions from, if not more so.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

What? The subject is Jirens power and Vados says that it's far beyond comprehension. Therefore Vados is talking about Jirens power. Yet you're claiming that somehow Vados can be talking about anything else but power. No, just no.

There are no special properties to Jirens power that makes it beyond comprehension. Vados simply refers to his power as beyond comprehension so that logically encompasses everything which includes scope. She didn't say that parts of his power are beyond comprehension. And Jirens power isn't stated to have special properties, so scope is all that's being talked about.

Yeah, you can form other alternate meanings to Vados' statement if you reach extremely hard. Doesn't change the fact that those other interpretations are wrong. None of them hold water because the context of the scene makes it obvious what's being talked about.

[Ziegander]

What? The subject is Jirens power and Vados says that it's far beyond comprehension. Therefore Vados is talking about Jirens power. Yet you're claiming that somehow Vados can be talking about anything else but power. No, just no.

I'm not saying that Vados is talking about anything other than power. I'm saying there is more than one way she can be talking about Jiren's power that you are either willfully ignoring or are patently incapable of comprehending yourself.

There are no special properties to Jirens power that makes it beyond comprehension.

I'm not suggesting there are, but, in point of fact, neither of us knows whether there are or not.

Vados simply refers to his power as beyond comprehension so that logically encompasses everything which includes scope. She didn't say that parts of his power are beyond comprehension. And Jirens power isn't stated to have special properties, so scope is all that's being talked about.

According to you. She could be saying the scope of his power is incomprehensible, but there are other ways in which to talk about his power that do not include its scope. The nature of his power could be incomprehensible, the application of his power, perhaps the source of his power. Scope is all that's being talked about? So, then, "logically" do you mean to suggest that Vados does comprehend the nature of Jiren's power, she does understand how Jiren is applying his power, and she knows the source of his power? Because, according to you, the scope of his power is all that's being talked about.

Yeah, you can form other alternate meanings to Vados' statement if you reach extremely hard. Doesn't change the fact that those other interpretations are wrong. None of them hold water because the context of the scene makes it obvious what's being talked about.

Me and many other posters aren't coming to the same conclusion as you. If anyone is reaching, it's you. You're trying to use logic to dictate that not only is your interpretation the only valid one, but that it's the only one that can or even should be considered, when I think it's plain to see that logic is not on your side.

[Bullza]

I'm​ not sure if it was brought up or not but in the preview it looks like Frieza is man handling Base Cabba.

As that should be a stronger Base Cabba than at the Universe 6 saga who was as strong as Base Vegeta who had 3 years of training since the Resurrection F saga then it would be further evidence that Final Form Frieza was considerably above the Base Saiyans.

If that's how the scene actually plays out that is.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I'm​ not sure if it was brought up or not but in the preview it looks like Frieza is man handling Base Cabba.

As that should be a stronger Base Cabba than at the Universe 6 saga who was as strong as Base Vegeta who had 3 years of training since the Resurrection F saga then it would be further evidence that Final Form Frieza was considerably above the Base Saiyans.

If that's how the scene actually plays out that is.

I'm not sure if it was present during the scene with Freeza, but Cabba WAS considerably beat up in several scenes earlier, seemingly by Monna and DEFINITELY by Vegeta. Seriously, Vegeta kneed the everloving crap out of Cabba and had him gurgling and struggling to not vomit.

[Smilodon]

This is crazy....Someone REALLY think that Jiren's power could be compared to Vado's power?
I really doubt about Jiren being more powerful than all hakaishins (maybe only Velmold and another one or two), but since DBS started they showed us the angels are in another complete different level...

Things are said in the moment to bring emoticon...You cannot get all of this litteraly. For example:

Whis talked about Hit's improvement and he said that it gives him fear...And in that tournament some people was thinking that Hit could be stronger than the angels...After this we saw Hit afraid of Champa.

Kaioshin said that merged Zamasu's power was the most strongest ki he ever felt...But he said that after meeting the Zen'o guards, Whis, Vados, Daishinkan and Zen'o...Was Zamasu really stronger than those guys?

So, when Vados talked about Jiren's power...She was comparing him against the other contenders, not against the angel's level...She would just tap him in the neck to knock him out...Any angel can defeat Jiren with easy.

[Green]

long time lurker here

Ignoring Jiren > Daishinkan debates (to each his own i guess), I think it is pretty obvious that Freeza is way above the "Base Saiyan" level, or atleast it's a backed up assumption to make considering:

- he stomped Napapa, who was pushing back SS Caulifla
- he stomped Jimeze, who was murking Gohan and fighting SS Goku
- pushed back Gohan with ease and didn't seem to be that weaker than Ultimate, one can argue the latter was holding back though. But considering he went full power instead of SS2...
- how he beats up Cabba, but we don't know the context of said scene

I think he's around BOG SSG level give or take, maybe even stronger. Way above any level a Base Saiyan is supposed to be anyway, let's put it like that I guess.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

long time lurker here

Ignoring Jiren > Daishinkan debates (to each his own i guess), I think it is pretty obvious that Freeza is way above the "Base Saiyan" level, or atleast it's a backed up assumption to make considering:

- he stomped Napapa, who was pushing back SS Caulifla
- he stomped Jimeze, who was murking Gohan and fighting SS Goku
- pushed back Gohan with ease and didn't seem to be that weaker than Ultimate, one can argue the latter was holding back though. But considering he went full power instead of SS2...
- how he beats up Cabba, but we don't know the context of said scene

I think he's around BOG SSG level give or take, maybe even stronger. Way above any level a Base Saiyan is supposed to be anyway, let's put it like that I guess.

It's hard to say for sure. The narrative seems to support the conceptual idea that Goku and Vegeta are still Freeza's equals in base form, yet also portrays other characters as equal to them and lesser than Freeza.

I have this weird headcanon explanation that Freeza uses his power like he has in the past, to DOMINATE other people. Thus, he does well against people with a lower power level than him but struggles when they're even an inkling higher. Whereas other fighters use their power to FIGHT other people. Thus, they do worse against people with lower power levels than them but do better when they're up against people stronger than them. Basically, if you treat your power level as important, then that's what mainly matters. If you treat your martial arts as important, then that's what mainly matters.

Except for Jiren, Gods of Destruction, etc. Those guys don't give a damn.

[Green]

Yeah, I respect that view, can see where you're coming from. Regarding Freezer and other characters' inconsistent showings (that Super is polluted with or else this thread wouldn't be nearly a thousand pages long), I'd chalk it up to Toei's inconsistent writing or rather, the number of different writers that are bound to have different opinions and views on certain matters (if they do at all). Toyotaro fucks it up too sometimes and he's alone, I can't imagine how they could set a consistent powerscaling. Look at Z's fillers, they weren't any better than some episodes we got, I admire the effort of a lot of people here (i'm lurking since the U6 saga iirc, loved the Piccolo > SSG debates by the way), but a coherent sheet of power levels is a rather utopian thing.

[Jigurashi]

Hitto did well. Came closer to elimimaging Jiren than Goku and his hax is great. Though I wouldn't put him on SSBKKx20 level. His only physical attack he landed knocked Jiren through a few boulders and Jiren was unscathed. SSB Goku did the same thing but the difference was Jiren braced for Goku's attack and he still knocked Jiren through several boulders (he was unscathed then too).

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

An interesting comment I only just remembered.

Some spectators, the Universe 6 Saiyans I think, to Hit's fight with Jiren said that Hit was blocking, so he didn't take too much damage. Now, Hit was still getting pretty badly beaten by Jiren even when blocking, but that seems to be more of a symptom of Jiren's overwhelmingly high power level.

In other contexts, it'd certainly be a good way of explaining how certain fighters can tangle with others if blocking really does reduce damage so much.

[BlueVegerot]

long time lurker here

Ignoring Jiren > Daishinkan debates (to each his own i guess), I think it is pretty obvious that Freeza is way above the "Base Saiyan" level, or atleast it's a backed up assumption to make considering:

- he stomped Napapa, who was pushing back SS Caulifla
- he stomped Jimeze, who was murking Gohan and fighting SS Goku
- pushed back Gohan with ease and didn't seem to be that weaker than Ultimate, one can argue the latter was holding back though. But considering he went full power instead of SS2...
- how he beats up Cabba, but we don't know the context of said scene

I think he's around BOG SSG level give or take, maybe even stronger. Way above any level a Base Saiyan is supposed to be anyway, let's put it like that I guess.

My headcanon is that they retconned all the powerscaling from RoF arc. They decided the gap was too big where Super Saiyan 2 Gohan and Piccolo couldn't even come close to 1st form freeza and then to have base Goku shit on Final Form Freeza. I would guess Freeza is about equal to SSJ2 Goku is not a bit stronger now as the stuff above has shown.

[apex_pretador]

How strong is dyspo is,is he stronger than SSBKKX10 in u6 or below it as well toppo is he stronger than SSBKK

Dyspo is weaker than SS Goku in strength. However, he's pretty close. So that puts him above Ribanne, #17, Piccolo and over half the ToP roster. Only Kale, Freeza, Maji Kayo, Gohan, Goku, Vegeta, Hit, Jiren and Toppo are above him so far.

Toppo is stronger than most of the ToP fighters, with only Freeza, Hit, Vegeta, Goku and Jiren surpassing him.

Ribrianne in this episode was struggling with base vegeta. Before she was atleast keeping up with ssj vegeta and android 17. Is it possible goku just suppressed the living shit out of himself against 17 or was 17 not trying vs her?

Ribanne broke 17's barrier. I'm in with "17's not so strong" camp because it makes sense for 17 to be weaker than buu.

I put Ribanne between base and SS vegeta. She had a decent advantage on base Goku who was losing but could (barely) keep up.

long time lurker here

Ignoring Jiren > Daishinkan debates (to each his own i guess), I think it is pretty obvious that Freeza is way above the "Base Saiyan" level, or atleast it's a backed up assumption to make considering:

- he stomped Napapa, who was pushing back SS Caulifla
- he stomped Jimeze, who was murking Gohan and fighting SS Goku
- pushed back Gohan with ease and didn't seem to be that weaker than Ultimate, one can argue the latter was holding back though. But considering he went full power instead of SS2...
- how he beats up Cabba, but we don't know the context of said scene

I think he's around BOG SSG level give or take, maybe even stronger. Way above any level a Base Saiyan is supposed to be anyway, let's put it like that I guess.

My headcanon is that they retconned all the powerscaling from RoF arc. They decided the gap was too big where Super Saiyan 2 Gohan and Piccolo couldn't even come close to 1st form freeza and then to have base Goku shit on Final Form Freeza. I would guess Freeza is about equal to SSJ2 Goku is not a bit stronger now as the stuff above has shown.

I think that Freeza is weaker than SS2 Goku. He should be above SS1 Goku though.

[BlueVegerot]

The show treats ribrianne like she's important and strong but the recent episodes don't depict that at all.

[TheGreatSaiyaman]

How strong do you guys think Gohan is at full strength? I feel like he's on par or at least in the same ballpark with current SSB Goku (so in theory he could beat the U6 iterations of the SSB's as they've gotten a lot stronger since then), but I'd like to hear other thoughts on this?

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

How strong do you guys think Gohan is at full strength? I feel like he's on par or at least in the same ballpark with current SSB Goku (so in theory he could beat the U6 iterations of the SSB's as they've gotten a lot stronger since then), but I'd like to hear other thoughts on this?

I'm in the same ballpark, but there are also plenty of people on here that would disagree.

For me, it seems as if the intent was to put Ultimate Gohan in the same range as other higher-tier characters on his team, like Golden Freeza, SSB Vegeta and Goku, and Android 17, create a sort of general range where the strongest of Universe 7 reside that's only surpassed by Goku using the Kaio-ken, which puts him as the strongest on the team.

Others prefer to go with the notion that Ultimate Gohan is only slightly stronger than his original self. And others still think that he's surpassed the others' Super Saiyan forms but hasn't yet reached their god-forms.

[Ziegander]

Narratively, in the build up to the tournament it seemed incredibly obvious to me that they were showing us Gohan had reached a level equivalent to Super Saiyan Blue Goku. He sparred with Goku and Gohan decided regular old Blue wasn't challenging enough for him, he wanted his dad to use more power, so Goku used Kaioken to put him down for a nap. If that's not trying to tell us Gohan is Blue level, then I don't understand what the point of any of it was.

The problem comes then in the Tournament of Power with how piss poor he's been shown in literally every scene he's been in, besides his fight with Obuni which, while Gohan didn't embarrass himself, we had no context whatsoever to go on with how strong Obuni is supposed to be. This character we've never seen before, who's never fought anyone before, comes in, gives Gohan a hard time, and Gohan has to go Ultimate to beat him. Every other time Gohan has fought he's looked pathetic and/or gotten the shit kicked out of him, usually against characters that should be way below his level.

So, the show seemed to want to make painfully obvious to us that Gohan is at Blue level, but in media, even non-visual media, you want to show your audience the truth not just tell. That's why power scaling communities, whether they are from this fandom or from comics, use "feats," what characters actually do, to compare characters and often downplay if not completely ignore what is said in dialogue about characters. And we've been shown that Ultimate Gohan got dicked around by SSJ2 Goku, got pissed off, asked his dad to stop dicking around, so Goku went Blue, Gohan took and dished some hits against him, then got KO'd by SSBKK Goku. Before the Tournament of Power I would not have guessed Goku was cutting his son any slack and holding back against him, even though Goku is the Sandbagging King, but then in the Tournament we see Gohan getting ragdolled by SSJ and SSJ2 level fighters who are definitely not holding back against him, so...