Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Marlowe89]

Just to go off track a little bit.

If Android 17 has strength that rivals Super Saiyan Blue, then considering the sheer rate of improvement that he had...then wouldn't he have been the strongest on Earth during the Buu saga?

Had he shown up wouldn't he have effortlessly have man handled Buu? Maybe even put up a better fight against Beerus than Super Saiyan God Goku did?

Even after all this time, I still have no idea how strong 17 is supposed to be. Him, Ultimate Gohan and Ribrianne are probably the most inconsistently written characters in the entire arc.

[ZombieVito]

Just to go off track a little bit.

If Android 17 has strength that rivals Super Saiyan Blue, then considering the sheer rate of improvement that he had...then wouldn't he have been the strongest on Earth during the Buu saga?

Had he shown up wouldn't he have effortlessly have man handled Buu? Maybe even put up a better fight against Beerus than Super Saiyan God Goku did?

Even after all this time, I still have no idea how strong 17 is supposed to be. Him, Ultimate Gohan and Ribrianne are probably the most inconsistently written characters in the entire arc.

How are they inconsistent?

17 was holding back during his fight with SSB Goku (As did he) so nothing contradicts his performance in the ToP.

Gohan was said to rival SSB Goku and nothing contradicts this in the ToP.

Ribrianne can be tricky but in 118 it becomes very clear she's way below base tier.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I view the Gohan/17 situation much like how I view ESSB Vegeta and Hakaishin Toppo.

Gohan and 17 are strong enough to fight in relatively straight combat with opponents on the level of SSB, but still remain below the level by a decent amount in terms of raw power; Evolved SSB Vegeta is like this compared to Hakaishin Toppo, only he managed to overcome the difference with a limi-breaking Final Explosion.

[Bullza]

Well he's definitely not as strong as Super Saiyan Blue Goku. That was shown during the black hole scene as well as their fights with Toppo. Android 17 was over powered by Toppo whereas Goku was his equal.

Otherwise yes I was assuming that he had a steady consistent rate of improvement in the years since the Android saga and the current saga.

If that were true he should have easily have been the strongest on Earth in the Buu saga.

[Marlowe89]

17 was holding back during his fight with SSB Goku (As did he) so nothing contradicts his performance in the ToP.

Gohan was said to rival SSB Goku and nothing contradicts this in the ToP.

Ribrianne can be tricky but in 118 it becomes very clear she's way below base tier.

Ultimate Gohan was struggling against characters like Obuni and the Namekians from Universe 6. Ribrianne shattered Android 17's barrier effortlessly in one episode, and then in a later episode failed to do the same thing even though she was in a much stronger form. Ultimate Gohan and 17 both got absolutely manhandled by base Toppo simultaneously. Both characters also struggled against the fodderbots from Universe 3, not to mention that 17 couldn't even withstand the love black hole technique that Goku easily overpowered with Super Saiyan Blue. Don't even get me started on Ribrianne herself; she's probably the most inconsistent fighter in the entire tournament and more than enough has been said about her in this very thread already. Why should we assume that either of these characters are even close to Blue tier?

They're just not written very well at all from a strength standpoint, and I think it's obvious at this point that their exact level of power appears to be up to the writer's discretion. You'll run into the occasional outlier for other characters, but for the most part they're relatively consistent -- with these three it just seems utterly impossible to even get an idea of where they're supposed to be.

Gohan and 17 are strong enough to fight in relatively straight combat with opponents on the level of SSB, but still remain below the level by a decent amount in terms of raw power;

That's probably the most appropriate way to rationalize it. In the manga, Goku never bothers to use anything above Super Saiyan 3 during his brief skirmish with 17, and at least from Toshio's perspective, 17 and Ultimate Gohan are about equal in strength. Power-wise, they could be just about anywhere between 3 and Blue.

[jeffbr92]

After Vegeta uses the Final Explosion and survives, Jiren says that with '' those wounds, '' he would not win. So anyway, Vegeta was weaker when he faced Jiren

And? My point still stands. Vegeta at full power still could not come close to hurt Jiren, getting weaker just made everything worse to him. The deal is that: Jiren is vastly stronger than both #17 and Freeza to the point they are worms compared to him, being weaker due losing stamina should not be enough for them to cause him some trouble.

[CJStriker_CBR]

17 was holding back during his fight with SSB Goku (As did he) so nothing contradicts his performance in the ToP.

Gohan was said to rival SSB Goku and nothing contradicts this in the ToP.

Ribrianne can be tricky but in 118 it becomes very clear she's way below base tier.

Ultimate Gohan was struggling against characters like Obuni and the Namekians from Universe 6. Ribrianne shattered Android 17's barrier effortlessly in one episode, and then in a later episode failed to do the same thing even though she was in a much stronger form. Ultimate Gohan and 17 both got absolutely manhandled by base Toppo simultaneously. Both characters also struggled against the fodderbots from Universe 3, not to mention that 17 couldn't even withstand the love black hole technique that Goku easily overpowered with Super Saiyan Blue. Don't even get me started on Ribrianne herself; she's probably the most inconsistent fighter in the entire tournament and more than enough has been said about her in this very thread already. Why should we assume that either of these characters are even close to Blue tier?

They're just not written very well at all from a strength standpoint, and I think it's obvious at this point that their exact level of power appears to be up to the writer's discretion. You'll run into the occasional outlier for other characters, but for the most part they're relatively consistent -- with these three it just seems utterly impossible to even get an idea of where they're supposed to be.

And that is without at Doubt the writers Fault for not following threw on Gohan and Ribrianne with how both where being presented early on in the ToP and Lead-Up, not a fault of who a character is. Toei showed threw most of the ToP after it seemed around 106-107 that taking caring of showing levels of power outside of any fighter not a Saiyan, Freeza or Jiren they simple did not seem to care to keep the consistency of showing of the power levels on par with what we saw they both where able to do earlier on.

Gohan would fight his Dad at a Pretty High level before the ToP began with that Tag Team sparring episode. Ribrianne Toyed with SSJ-1 Vegeta and Went Well against Android #17 in 102-103. So they where both shown to have Great beginning levels of power that we could see both going further from their. But Toei got Lazy, did not care or lost focus on them after these opening moments. They did a Good Job Saying Ribrianne was powerful in 108-109, but did not show it with Goku's Mutli-Skittles colored hair-dos and for some reason Toei for awhile feel in love with Basic for Goku with to many fights outside of Jiren or the U6 Girls.

We can speculate why Toei mismanaged this with them all day but unless they release a reasoning we will never know, but they did it non-the-less to the disappointment of their fans that got good lead-up to high levels of power for them and yet got undercut for whatever reasons.

This is not a problem with the characters or their personias, this writing should not be a hit on their characters. They had some good character arcs. But still powers levels where mishandled and it is a problem with Toei's writing staff that made promises and did not deliver and gave not reasoning in-story as to why the power levels of Gohan and Ribrianne where so Nerfed.

The Conclusion should be where they were at the start of their power showings, not the end, cause it is at the end where Toei showed little care about those levels and keeping them constant, I can't find good reasons honor such bad writing to honor the later levels when the earlier ones where written so much better.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

So that statement about Beerus saying Mastered Ultra Instinct might be greater never took place in this episode, right?

[Hugo Boss]

So that statement about Beerus saying Mastered Ultra Instinct might be greater never took place in this episode, right?

That's right. No direct comparison was made. Whis just called Ultra Instinct the limit-breaking power of the gods.

[Miracles]

What Goku did to pre-shirtless Jiren is what he'd do to any GoD.

No one in the story claimed so.

[ZombieVito]

Ultimate Gohan was struggling against characters like Obuni and the Namekians from Universe 6. Ribrianne shattered Android 17's barrier effortlessly in one episode, and then in a later episode failed to do the same thing even though she was in a much stronger form. Ultimate Gohan and 17 both got absolutely manhandled by base Toppo simultaneously. Both characters also struggled against the fodderbots from Universe 3, not to mention that 17 couldn't even withstand the love black hole technique that Goku easily overpowered with Super Saiyan Blue. Don't even get me started on Ribrianne herself; she's probably the most inconsistent fighter in the entire tournament and more than enough has been said about her in this very thread already. Why should we assume that either of these characters are even close to Blue tier?

They're just not written very well at all from a strength standpoint, and I think it's obvious at this point that their exact level of power appears to be up to the writer's discretion. You'll run into the occasional outlier for other characters, but for the most part they're relatively consistent -- with these three it just seems utterly impossible to even get an idea of where they're supposed to be.

Gohan only struggled with Obuni because of his feint technique and there's nothing wrong with the Namekians being Blue tier.

The only explanation for Ribrianne breaking 17's shield is that 17 made a weaker shield. Nothing contradicts this to be honest.

What's wrong with Toppo beating Gohan and 17? He's obviously stronger and has a big body type which means bigger endurance.

Didn't base Gohan fought the U3 robots? Or are you talking about the fused robot? Because, again, there's nothing wrong with that 3 fuse robot being Blue tier.

[Raphael_Z]

Just to go off track a little bit.

If Android 17 has strength that rivals Super Saiyan Blue, then considering the sheer rate of improvement that he had...then wouldn't he have been the strongest on Earth during the Buu saga?

Had he shown up wouldn't he have effortlessly have man handled Buu? Maybe even put up a better fight against Beerus than Super Saiyan God Goku did?

In my own headcannon, 17 started training AFTER he (and the rest of the Earth) got killed by Buu because he wanted to be stronger in order to protect his family.

Otherwise, you are 100% right in saying that right now 17 is at least low-tier Blue level which is more powerful than Battle of the God's Saiyan God Goku and definitely more powerful than 100% of the cast during the Buu Saga.

Had he been around during Return of F, he would have also been able to humiliate Frieza as well.

I really hope that in the next arc, Piccolo will get a power up because it's kind of lame that he has been stuck between SSJ1 and SSJ2 Level ever since the Cell Saga. Also, if we base power based on elimination order, he is probably weaker than 18 at this point.

So far, in my opinion.

Ultra Instinct Goku
Red Aura Jiren
All of the Gods of Destruction in their current forms*
Full Power Jiren
Super Saiyan Blue Royal Vegeta
God of Destruction Toppo
Ultra Instinct Omen Goku
SSJ2 Kefla
Super Saiyan Blue Goku Kaioken
Pride Trooper Toppo
Golden Frieza
Super Saiyan Blue Goku/Vegeta
Dyspo
Hit
Android 17
Ultimate Gohan

*I'm sure that SOME Gods of Destruction have (at least) an unperfected form of Ultra Instinct or at least something else under their sleeve.

[Marlowe89]

Gohan only struggled with Obuni because of his feint technique and there's nothing wrong with the Namekians being Blue tier.

Piccolo was able to briefly exchange fists with one of the U6 Namekians before he was overwhelmed without getting outright stomped, even when it was clear that they were taking that fight seriously. Saonel and Pirina are barely God tier, if that; much less Blue tier.

The only explanation for Ribrianne breaking 17's shield is that 17 made a weaker shield. Nothing contradicts this to be honest.

That's not really how this works -- nothing supports that explanation, which is the issue. You're just trying to make sense of the constant inconsistencies involving Ribrianne, which there happens to be a laundry list of.

What's wrong with Toppo beating Gohan and 17? He's obviously stronger and has a big body type which means bigger endurance.

There's nothing particularly wrong with it, it just means that neither character is obviously anywhere near Blue tier since base Toppo is supposed to be on that level. This, again, was even further supported earlier when Goku easily managed to withstand Universe 2's black hole using Super Saiyan Blue even though 17 couldn't.

The latter scene was pretty much a direct comparison between the two so I'm not sure how much more apparent that could be. They're not touching a serious Goku in that form in terms of raw power.

[Bullza]

I'd say "Super Saiyan Blue Tier" has become too vague at this point. It would technically range from SSJB back in the Resurrection F saga to this current Universe Survival saga.

That includes SSJB Vegeta stomping SSJR Black who previously stomped SSJB Goku.

So it might be that Android 17 and Ultimate Gohan may not be as strong as the current Super Saiyan Blue but there's still more than enough room for them to easily still be within that level somewhere.

[HeroR]

Just to go off track a little bit.

If Android 17 has strength that rivals Super Saiyan Blue, then considering the sheer rate of improvement that he had...then wouldn't he have been the strongest on Earth during the Buu saga?

Had he shown up wouldn't he have effortlessly have man handled Buu? Maybe even put up a better fight against Beerus than Super Saiyan God Goku did?

Even after all this time, I still have no idea how strong 17 is supposed to be. Him, Ultimate Gohan and Ribrianne are probably the most inconsistently written characters in the entire arc.

Not really since 17 was only shown 'weak' when he couldn't escape the black hole in 118.

There's nothing particularly wrong with it, it just means that neither character is obviously anywhere near Blue tier since base Toppo is supposed to be on that level. This, again, was even further supported earlier when Goku easily managed to withstand Universe 2's black hole using Super Saiyan Blue even though 17 couldn't.

The latter scene was pretty much a direct comparison between the two so I'm not sure how much more apparent that could be. They're not touching a serious Goku in that form in terms of raw power.

In Dragon Ball, it doesn't take much of a power different to overwhelmed someone. Even if 17 was half of Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku's power, they would still be inferior to Toppo who was shown to be able to withstand a Kamehameha from what we assumed to be Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku at full power since he went Kaioken after Toppo powered up.



On another topic, for those who say that UI was just showed as another power-up in this episode, I have to disagree. It wasn't as in your face as previous showings, but UI Goku was doing stuff that he wouldn't be able to do, at least never shown to do, outside of UI. This is shown in this video:

https://youtu.be/ljG4Q32GFhM?t=127

And this:

[ZombieVito]

Gohan only struggled with Obuni because of his feint technique and there's nothing wrong with the Namekians being Blue tier.

Piccolo was able to briefly exchange fists with one of the U6 Namekians before he was overwhelmed without getting outright stomped, even when it was clear that they were taking that fight seriously. Saonel and Pirina are barely God tier, if that; much less Blue tier.

The only explanation for Ribrianne breaking 17's shield is that 17 made a weaker shield. Nothing contradicts this to be honest.

That's not really how this works -- nothing supports that explanation, which is the issue. You're just trying to make sense of the constant inconsistencies involving Ribrianne, which there happens to be a laundry list of.

What's wrong with Toppo beating Gohan and 17? He's obviously stronger and has a big body type which means bigger endurance.

There's nothing particularly wrong with it, it just means that neither character is obviously anywhere near Blue tier since base Toppo is supposed to be on that level. This, again, was even further supported earlier when Goku easily managed to withstand Universe 2's black hole using Super Saiyan Blue even though 17 couldn't.

The latter scene was pretty much a direct comparison between the two so I'm not sure how much more apparent that could be. They're not touching a serious Goku in that form in terms of raw power.

Did we watch the same fight? Piccolo was done for if it wasn't for Gohan going Ultimate and cutting Pirina's arm. He was stomped.

I still see nothing wrong with this. 17 making a weaker shield and SS Vegeta holding out on her contradicts nothing.

You are forgetting that Toppo has mad endurance (As proven in the exhibition match), that gives him the edge and just because they are weaker than him doesn't mean they aren't on the same tier. Freeza and Goku are on the same tier and look how badly the former beat the latter in RoF.

[HeroR]

Gohan only struggled with Obuni because of his feint technique and there's nothing wrong with the Namekians being Blue tier.

Piccolo was able to briefly exchange fists with one of the U6 Namekians before he was overwhelmed without getting outright stomped, even when it was clear that they were taking that fight seriously. Saonel and Pirina are barely God tier, if that; much less Blue tier.

The only explanation for Ribrianne breaking 17's shield is that 17 made a weaker shield. Nothing contradicts this to be honest.

That's not really how this works -- nothing supports that explanation, which is the issue. You're just trying to make sense of the constant inconsistencies involving Ribrianne, which there happens to be a laundry list of.

What's wrong with Toppo beating Gohan and 17? He's obviously stronger and has a big body type which means bigger endurance.

There's nothing particularly wrong with it, it just means that neither character is obviously anywhere near Blue tier since base Toppo is supposed to be on that level. This, again, was even further supported earlier when Goku easily managed to withstand Universe 2's black hole using Super Saiyan Blue even though 17 couldn't.

The latter scene was pretty much a direct comparison between the two so I'm not sure how much more apparent that could be. They're not touching a serious Goku in that form in terms of raw power.

Did we watch the same fight? Piccolo was done for if it wasn't for Gohan going Ultimate and cutting Pirina's arm. He was stomped.

I still see nothing wrong with this. 17 making a weaker shield and SS Vegeta holding out on her contradicts nothing.

You are forgetting that Toppo has mad endurance (As proven in the exhibition match), that gives him the edge and just because they are weaker than him doesn't mean they aren't on the same tier. Freeza and Goku are on the same tier and look how badly the former beat the latter in RoF.

Super Saiyan Goku in the Cell Saga was also in the 'same tier' as Perfect Cell.

[Marlowe89]

So it might be that Android 17 and Ultimate Gohan may not be as strong as the current Super Saiyan Blue but there's still more than enough room for them to easily still be within that level somewhere.

Possibly, but my point was that there's not much indication provided within the show to give us a clear pinpoint of where those characters stand either way. They're definitely below Super Saiyan Blue Goku in strength by a considerable amount, and even the recruitment episodes implied that Goku was suppressing himself to some unknown degree (he can apparently even go as low as beneath his own base level while in that form) but the characters they often fought against may not have been nearly that strong themselves.

It's easy to extrapolate their opponents as being close to their level by proxy if their performance was satisfactory against the characters in question -- i.e. "Character X was giving Ultimate Gohan a hard time, therefore Character X is Blue tier" -- but we don't really know how strong Gohan is supposed to be or how close his power comes to the current Super Saiyan Blue in the first place. Even if it's not inconsistent to the same degree as, say, Ribrianne, it's certainly ambiguous and not at all clearly defined. The same reasoning applies to Android 17, who has spent most of his time in the tournament relying more on strategy than strength and getting overwhelmed by opponents and techniques that are equal to or weaker than SSB Goku (Toppo and the black hole being the prime examples).

My personal ranking system actually uses much larger 'tiers' than a lot of posters here, so I'd have no problem categorizing Ultimate Gohan and Android 17 in the same group as Super Saiyan Blue Goku if the "proof" was just a bit more definitive. It's really not, though.

[brett wheeler]

So it might be that Android 17 and Ultimate Gohan may not be as strong as the current Super Saiyan Blue but there's still more than enough room for them to easily still be within that level somewhere.

Possibly, but my point was that there's not much indication provided within the show to give us a clear pinpoint of where those characters stand either way. They're definitely below Super Saiyan Blue Goku in strength by a considerable amount, and even the recruitment episodes implied that Goku was suppressing himself to some unknown degree (he can apparently even go as low as beneath his own base level while in that form) but the characters they often fought against may not have been nearly that strong themselves.

It's easy to extrapolate their opponents as being close to their level by proxy if their performance was satisfactory against the characters in question -- i.e. "Character X was giving Ultimate Gohan a hard time, therefore Character X is Blue tier" -- but we don't really know how strong Gohan is supposed to be or how close his power comes to the current Super Saiyan Blue in the first place. Even if it's not inconsistent to the same degree as, say, Ribrianne, it's certainly ambiguous and not at all clearly defined. The same reasoning applies to Android 17, who has spent most of his time in the tournament relying more on strategy than strength and getting overwhelmed by opponents and techniques that are equal to or weaker than SSB Goku (Toppo and the black hole being the prime examples).

My personal ranking system actually uses much larger 'tiers' than a lot of posters here, so I'd have no problem categorizing Ultimate Gohan and Android 17 in the same group as Super Saiyan Blue Goku if the "proof" was just a bit more definitive. It's really not, though.

I agree placing Ult gohan and 17 are a pain, the best place I can put them is at the higher end of ssg tier, this enables them to fight ssb tier characters but be overwhelmed by higher ranking ssb tier characters, and honestly this makes sense as ult gohan gave FF frieza a good ( fake ) fight, and he fought dyspo once he was cornered and couldnt use his super speed mode ( without the mode he was around ssg tier and probably base tier once you can anticipate his moves as he wasnt that strong just rally fast ),as for ribrianne she isnt as confusing any more due to the fact that while she kept up with 17 once, for the rest of the tournament she has been thrashed by base tier characters even in her super form, all in all theres a reason nobody is ranking all the characters on this tournament, with this many characters there's bound to be a lot of inconsistencies, but more or less they kept the main cast pretty consistent with some outliers here and there, the biggest wonder I have is where FF frieza lies he seems to ssj tier, at least by what is said, but some instances have him as low ssg tier, and some have him as base tier, now I believe he may be using more percent of his power based on the situatio, and maby he was only using 1% in ROF vs goku, but still dont know why he fought off some characters that where relative to ssg, but then later goes to save ssg and barely tickles him when frieza even acknowledges he may have been to rough ( basically he was trying to hit him pretty hard ), plus there the whole punching goku thing before the tournament that once you look back at it is possible that he hit him like he meant it, as he didnt want to compete just get out of hell,so where does he stand exactly I still dont know.

[Marlowe89]

I agree placing Ult gohan and 17 are a pain, the best place I can put them is at the higher end of ssg tier, this enables them to fight ssb tier characters but be overwhelmed by higher ranking ssb tier characters

Well, they're certainly among the best tactical fighters in the tournament which appears to make up for their comparative lack of strength, especially in 17's case. Honestly, I think they could be anywhere from below God level to somewhere between God and the current Blue. There's just no reliable way of telling at the moment; there's a whole range of possible placements for these two characters and almost none of them would actually contradict anything.

I still see nothing wrong with this. 17 making a weaker shield and SS Vegeta holding out on her contradicts nothing.

The ideas themselves aren't directly refuted by the show, but that doesn't stop them from being baseless work-around explanatory attempts at best. Vegeta going Super Saiyan to fight someone while suppressing his power to below his base level in a tournament where he's out to eliminate the other opponent doesn't even make sense. Ribrianne was fighting evenly against a Super Saiyan in one episode, then exchanging blows with 17 for the whole duration of another episode (why would he hold back that drastically if he's significantly stronger than Goku as a Super Saiyan God?), then losing to the base Saiyans in another. Her strength was even complimented by SS Vegeta and 17 at points in those very fights. Ask yourself -- would you portray her power in that manner if you were the sole writer in charge of the tournament? There's no coherency here. My point is that you're looking for explanations that invariably don't exist and weren't implied to exist because you need to justify some sense of consistency that simply isn't there.

Occam's Razor suggests that the simplest explanation is that Super's writing staff is composed of different people who had different ideas and interpretations about Ribrianne's power, which might also extend to the ambiguity of 17. Trying to establish consistency for Ribrianne probably wasn't high on their priority list either since she's ultimately a comic relief character. She's only as strong as the person in charge of the episode wants her to be.