Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[ZombieVito]

Honestly, I'd say Vegeta's "fight " with Katopesla is the best evidence we have for how strong Goku and Vegeta without transformations are.

When he became 300 times stronger than normal in his Power Mode, Katopesla could beat on Vegeta's base form, and he only really annoyed him; he then became 300 times stronger than this in his Ultimate Mode, and was still inferior to Vegeta's SS form.

Speed Mode Katopesla was gonna land a blow against 18 while her ankle was twisted, but he was stopped by 17. Seems to me that this is about the best we have for any direct comparisons between 18 and base Goku/Vegeta.

Wait.

It's Ultimate mode takes into account the boost of his Power mode?

So Ultimate mode is a 90,000 times boost?

[ankokudaishogun]

How strong are the Dragon Ball GT characters compared to the Super characters at this point? Dragon Ball Heroes has Super Saiyan 4 Goku and Super Saiyan Blue Goku as being equal but that's just a game of course.

Note it's XENO Goku who fights post-ToP Goku.
Xeno Goku is supposed to be stronger than End of GT Goku(though we don't know how much), as well as technically coming from a different timeline from GT(though similar for obvious reasons).

but Post-ToP Goku is stronger than Zamasu-saga Goku, who is stronger than RoF Goku.

IMHO the Super Saiyan 4-level characters in GT are about as strong as the Blue-level characters in the Zamasu Saga.

People tend to forget BoG SSG is much weaker than Beerus... but so is post-Zamasu Mastered Blue(and, if we believe Base Jiren being around the same generic level of a GoD, so is Blue Kaiohken x20).
Goku did believe Vegetto couldn't defeat Beerus, but Super Saiyan God was completely defeated too.

Also, SSG in the movie was weird, he kept increasing his power over time, and nobody told us its maximum level in the movie was the base level in its other apparitions.

So, yeah.

[Kenneth La Torre]

Honestly, I'd say Vegeta's "fight " with Katopesla is the best evidence we have for how strong Goku and Vegeta without transformations are.

When he became 300 times stronger than normal in his Power Mode, Katopesla could beat on Vegeta's base form, and he only really annoyed him; he then became 300 times stronger than this in his Ultimate Mode, and was still inferior to Vegeta's SS form.

Speed Mode Katopesla was gonna land a blow against 18 while her ankle was twisted, but he was stopped by 17. Seems to me that this is about the best we have for any direct comparisons between 18 and base Goku/Vegeta.

Wait.

It's Ultimate mode takes into account the boost of his Power mode?

So Ultimate mode is a 90,000 times boost?

I thought ultimate mode was just 300x power and speed, not a 90,000 times boost. Or am i missing something?

[Rally 07]

Super characters are much,much stronger than GT. At this point Goku and Vegeta are millions of times stronger than their max output in the buu saga

Oh definitely, the differences between Gokou and Vegeta in the Boo saga and currently in the Tournament of Power is astronomical.

[PFM18]

Super characters are much,much stronger than GT. At this point Goku and Vegeta are millions of times stronger than their max output in the buu saga

Oh definitely, the differences between Gokou and Vegeta in the Boo saga and currently in the Tournament of Power is astronomical.

Yeah for sure. Based on the numbers that I plugged into my program, Ultra Instinct Goku is 830 million times stronger than his SSJ3 self and Vegeta's SSBE form is 1.4 Billion times stronger than his SSJ2 self in the buu saga lol

Honestly, I'd say Vegeta's "fight " with Katopesla is the best evidence we have for how strong Goku and Vegeta without transformations are.

When he became 300 times stronger than normal in his Power Mode, Katopesla could beat on Vegeta's base form, and he only really annoyed him; he then became 300 times stronger than this in his Ultimate Mode, and was still inferior to Vegeta's SS form.

Speed Mode Katopesla was gonna land a blow against 18 while her ankle was twisted, but he was stopped by 17. Seems to me that this is about the best we have for any direct comparisons between 18 and base Goku/Vegeta.

Wait.

It's Ultimate mode takes into account the boost of his Power mode?

So Ultimate mode is a 90,000 times boost?

I thought ultimate mode was just 300x power and speed, not a 90,000 times boost. Or am i missing something?

I thought it was 300x stronger than his Power mode. Therefore making his ultimate mode him 90,000x stronger than his normal self because (300^2)= 90,000

[Kenneth La Torre]

I need someones imput because I'm struggling to figure out my head-canon multiplier. We know is far higher than ssj3, but i cant decide between 10x, 50x or 100x.

I have ssb 50x from ssg, ever since ssb managed to move jiren, while jirens finger was more than enought for ssg.

[Marlowe89]

Wait.

It's Ultimate mode takes into account the boost of his Power mode?

No, he's misinterpreting that. Ultimate Mode provides the same strength boost as Raging Battle Mode, the difference is that it has the speed boost as well. It's basically just the sum of his two other forms combined into one.

Also, base Katopesla is way below the base Saiyans. The manga is consistent with this idea; Vegeta just one-shots him in that version.

[Helios518]

How strong are the Dragon Ball GT characters compared to the Super characters at this point? Dragon Ball Heroes has Super Saiyan 4 Goku and Super Saiyan Blue Goku as being equal but that's just a game of course.

Note it's XENO Goku who fights post-ToP Goku.
Xeno Goku is supposed to be stronger than End of GT Goku(though we don't know how much), as well as technically coming from a different timeline from GT(though similar for obvious reasons).

but Post-ToP Goku is stronger than Zamasu-saga Goku, who is stronger than RoF Goku.

IMHO the Super Saiyan 4-level characters in GT are about as strong as the Blue-level characters in the Zamasu Saga.

People tend to forget BoG SSG is much weaker than Beerus... but so is post-Zamasu Mastered Blue(and, if we believe Base Jiren being around the same generic level of a GoD, so is Blue Kaiohken x20).
Goku did believe Vegetto couldn't defeat Beerus, but Super Saiyan God was completely defeated too.

Also, SSG in the movie was weird, he kept increasing his power over time, and nobody told us its maximum level in the movie was the base level in its other apparitions.

So, yeah.

We don't know how much stronger each of those Goku's are compared to GT and DBS, so it's pointless to scale. Also you make it seem like base Geran, and SSJBKKx20 Goku are in the same realm of power, when in fact, the former used less than hint of his power to casually stop the best attacks from the latter.

[Hugo Boss]

I need someones imput because I'm struggling to figure out my head-canon multiplier. We know is far higher than ssj3, but i cant decide between 10x, 50x or 100x.

I have ssb 50x from ssg, ever since ssb managed to move jiren, while jirens finger was more than enought for ssg.

I particularly don’t like multipliers because they make power lists very bloated. But if I were to give a conservative aproach, SSG would be like SS3(x10). And that’s the largest difference I can bring myself to imagine right now.

[Kenneth La Torre]

Well, i heavely disagree with any Gt character touching a ToP SSB Goku or Vegeta, but lets say that for the sakes of it, ssj4 goku is as strong as ssb goku (ToP), that doesnt even guaranteed that a ssj4 Gogeta at full power can get pass the suppressed level of power jiren showed in 109/110. Not only would ssb kaioken x20 goku already be above Omega shenron (Omega shenron is stated to be 10x stronger than syn shenron, who is on par with a ssj4), but jiren blinked him away as easily as ssj4 gogeta blinked away omega shenron.

Thats if tho, my opinion is that at most, ssj4 Gogeta is on par with the first Showcase of SSG Goku. We cant apply the logic of other characters in super reaching god status by normal training to GT, due to the fact that GT is its own thing, seperate from the canon continuity. At best you can say its canon to the anime.

Unless they remake GT, then i say make ssj4 gogeta as strong as the grand priest

[ZombieVito]

I need someones imput because I'm struggling to figure out my head-canon multiplier. We know is far higher than ssj3, but i cant decide between 10x, 50x or 100x.

I have ssb 50x from ssg, ever since ssb managed to move jiren, while jirens finger was more than enought for ssg.

I particularly don’t like multipliers because they make power lists very bloated. But if I were to give a conservative aproach, SSG would be like SS3(x10). And that’s the largest difference I can bring myself to imagine right now.

I like a 10 times boost.

That's what I'm using at the moment.

[Kenneth La Torre]

I need someones imput because I'm struggling to figure out my head-canon multiplier. We know is far higher than ssj3, but i cant decide between 10x, 50x or 100x.

I have ssb 50x from ssg, ever since ssb managed to move jiren, while jirens finger was more than enought for ssg.

I particularly don’t like multipliers because they make power lists very bloated. But if I were to give a conservative aproach, SSG would be like SS3(x10). And that’s the largest difference I can bring myself to imagine right now.

I like a 10 times boost.

That's what I'm using at the moment.

Yeah, it seems like the nost reasonable aproach.

[PFM18]

Wait.

It's Ultimate mode takes into account the boost of his Power mode?

No, he's misinterpreting that. Ultimate Mode provides the same strength boost as Raging Battle Mode, the difference is that it has the speed boost as well. It's basically just the sum of his two other forms combined into one.

Also, base Katopesla is way below the base Saiyans. The manga is consistent with this idea; Vegeta just one-shots him in that version.

Problem is the manga is a different continuity than the anime. In the manga that may be the case but in the anime Katopesla can compete with Vegeta in SSJ so naturally he is stronger than the base saiyans.

[PFM18]

I need someones imput because I'm struggling to figure out my head-canon multiplier. We know is far higher than ssj3, but i cant decide between 10x, 50x or 100x.

I have ssb 50x from ssg, ever since ssb managed to move jiren, while jirens finger was more than enought for ssg.

Based on the wording that they use to describe SSB "When a Saiyan with the power of god goes Super Saiyan" or something like that, I call SSB being 50x stronger than normal SSJ which makes sense to me. (since after BoG SSJG ~ SSJ) So it is (50^2)=2500x base in my eyes.

[HeroR]

Except Dyspo easily freed himself when given the chance. Calling Dyspo base tier is a severe low-ball since it was stated over again in Z that speed means nothing without power. Dyspo is at least within the range of Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, but what puts him over is his speed.

Using the Flash is flawed because the Flash is more than just speed if you know anything about the Speed Force.

Speed =/= Power.

Just because you are a match with someone's power level doesn't mean you also match his speed. Stronger fighters can be slower than weaker ones.

This was proven with Burter, Ginyu and 17.

The mere fact FF Freeza trashed Dyspo makes him base tier.

And Burter’s speed was never shown him hurting someone many time stronger than him. And Freeza didn’t even hit Dyspo outside of grabbing him with his tail. By this logic, Hit is ‘base tier’.

[HeroR]

I don't think it's been brought up here for a very long time but seeing the newest Dragon Ball Heroes opening got me wondering.

How strong are the Dragon Ball GT characters compared to the Super characters at this point? Dragon Ball Heroes has Super Saiyan 4 Goku and Super Saiyan Blue Goku as being equal but that's just a game of course.

So amongst the Super Saiyan 4 level characters and then also Omega Shenron and Super Saiyan 4 Gogeta. Where would you class them amongst those in Super?

I don't think any of them would be as strong as Super Saiyan God myself. I'm not sure if it was true or a myth, I always forget but didn't some magazine suggest Super Saiyan 4 Goku was weaker than Super Vegito?

The Heroes characters are stronger than their GT counterpart. Even than, Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku is above Super Saiyan 4 Time Patrol Goku.

[Marlowe89]

In the manga that may be the case but in the anime Katopesla can compete with Vegeta in SSJ so naturally he is stronger than the base saiyans.

I made it clear I was referring to base Katopesla in that sentence; he's nowhere even remotely close to the base Saiyans. Both mediums are entirely consistent in portraying him to be relatively weak without enhancements, the difference is that the anime has exclusive forms that boost his abilities by 300 times while the manga hasn't shown anything of the sort.

[ChiefWamsutta]

How do these multipliers sound?

Saiyan = Base x 1
Great Ape = Base x 10
Saiyan Kaioken Max = Base x 20
Super Saiyan = Base x 50
Super Saiyan Grade 2 = Base x 60
Super Saiyan Grade 3 = Base x 75
Super Saiyan Full Power = Base x 90
Super Saiyan 2 = Base x 100
Super Saiyan Berserker Suppressed = Base x 200
Super Saiyan Berserker = Base x 350
Super Saiyan 3 = Base x 400
Mystic = Base x 500
Super Saiyan Berserker Full Power = Base x 2500
Super Saiyan Berserker 2 = Base x 5000
Super Saiyan God = Base x 25,000
Super Saiyan Rage = Base x 40,000
Super Saiyan Blue = Base x 50,000
Super Saiyan Rosé = Base x 50,000
Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken Max = Base x 1,000,000
Super Saiyan Blue Evolution = Base x 1,000,000
Ultra Instinct = Base x 5,000,000
Perfect Instinct = Base x 10,000,000

[Helios518]

How do these multipliers sound?

Saiyan = Base x 1
Great Ape = Base x 10
Saiyan Kaioken Max = Base x 20
Super Saiyan = Base x 50
Super Saiyan Grade 2 = Base x 60
Super Saiyan Grade 3 = Base x 75
Super Saiyan Full Power = Base x 90
Super Saiyan 2 = Base x 100
Super Saiyan Berserker Suppressed = Base x 200
Super Saiyan Berserker = Base x 350
Super Saiyan 3 = Base x 400
Mystic = Base x 500
Super Saiyan Berserker Full Power = Base x 2500
Super Saiyan Berserker 2 = Base x 5000
Super Saiyan God = Base x 25,000
Super Saiyan Rage = Base x 40,000
Super Saiyan Blue = Base x 50,000
Super Saiyan Rosé = Base x 50,000
Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken Max = Base x 1,000,000
Super Saiyan Blue Evolution = Base x 1,000,000
Ultra Instinct = Base x 5,000,000
Perfect Instinct = Base x 10,000,000

Not really feeling them TBH.
- Ultimate shouldn't have multiplier, it's just the full-power base. If it would have any multiplier at all, Boo Arc Ultimate should be at least a dozen of times stronger than SSJ3. While US Arc Ultimate should be comparable to SSJB.
- SSJG multiplier should at least be in the 100s of thousands.
- The gap between SSJB and God should be a lot bigger.
- The gap between Omen and SSJBE/SSJBKKx20 should as well, be a lot bigger.

Small nitpick: If you're going to use official names, then it would be better to use Ultra Instinct "Omen" (instead of Ultra Instinct), and Ultra Instinct (instead of Perfect Instinct).

[Kenneth La Torre]

How do these multipliers sound?

Saiyan = Base x 1
Great Ape = Base x 10
Saiyan Kaioken Max = Base x 20
Super Saiyan = Base x 50
Super Saiyan Grade 2 = Base x 60
Super Saiyan Grade 3 = Base x 75
Super Saiyan Full Power = Base x 90
Super Saiyan 2 = Base x 100
Super Saiyan Berserker Suppressed = Base x 200
Super Saiyan Berserker = Base x 350
Super Saiyan 3 = Base x 400
Mystic = Base x 500
Super Saiyan Berserker Full Power = Base x 2500
Super Saiyan Berserker 2 = Base x 5000
Super Saiyan God = Base x 25,000
Super Saiyan Rage = Base x 40,000
Super Saiyan Blue = Base x 50,000
Super Saiyan Rosé = Base x 50,000
Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken Max = Base x 1,000,000
Super Saiyan Blue Evolution = Base x 1,000,000
Ultra Instinct = Base x 5,000,000
Perfect Instinct = Base x 10,000,000

Looks O.K i guess.

At least no one can tell you that they are wrong, on the god forms that is, since no miltupliers are stated for them. Tho mystic shouldnt have a multiplier. gohan was many time sttonger than a ssj3 goku in the buu saga, while he is god/ low blue tier in super. Thats pretty much an indication that there is no miltiplier for mystic.