Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[ZombieVito]

Not only did Roshi dodged Jiren repeatedly but he also made him block one of his attacks.

What rubbish.

[Nevaeh]

In this chapter, Kuririn basically confirmed that neither Gohan, Kefla or Kale are Blue tier.

Kuririn questioned whether Gohan could SURPASS Goku if he continued training, that is, this has not yet happened. Then Gohan, who is inferior to Goku, drew with Kefla, who is stronger than Kale.

So, Goku> Gohan = Kefla> Kale, even if it does not make much sense

So Frieza wasn't lying when he said he could easily beat Kale if he took her seriously?

Wouldn't surprise me if SSG Goku is stronger as well

Kefla = Kale just feels wrong. That means she's essentially controlled non raged out Kale from the anime

[Bergamo]

Not only did Roshi dodged Jiren repeatedly but he also made him block one of his attacks.

What rubbish.

He didn't make Jiren block any attacks. Jiren had shown that he can tank any one of Goku's attacks, yet he blocks them anyway. Stop clinging to misinformation.

[Bullza]

Oh, then it can only be referring to their power in a "non-God state" Can't see another logical answer.

So you don't think the power up Goku received prior to becoming a Super Saiyan God could be a factor in that?

I was wondering if it went something akin to this

Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta --> Super Saiyan 3 Goku --> Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta (After Bulma got slapped)

--> Super Saiyan Goku (After the failed Saiyan ritual and when Gohan said he was stronger than ever)

=> (Super Saiyan?) Vegeta ("You may be stronger than me now")

[Bullza]

I'll take this slow down to bring up something else. I've so far rewatched the first 22 episodes of Super. I wouldn't say anything has become any more clear to me than before up to yet.

But back to the old "Base Gohan" discussion.

He has to be stronger than Piccolo. After Tagoma killed Shisami, they said Gohan was the strongest and that wasn't including Super Saiyan. They said Tagoma was as strong as Base Gohan and he slaughtered Piccolo.

Piccolo was wearing weights and then shortly after when he wasn't wearing them he was shown being on par with Gohan so that's clearly how that's meant to be viewed, no getting round it.

What I mainly wanted to bring up is that, even after they'd felt Frieza's power they made out that Buu was going to be their best hope. So he'd be stronger than the other Z Fighters there but would he have been stronger than Frieza in his First Form?

[LightBing]

Oh, then it can only be referring to their power in a "non-God state" Can't see another logical answer.

So you don't think the power up Goku received prior to becoming a Super Saiyan God could be a factor in that?

I was wondering if it went something akin to this

Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta --> Super Saiyan 3 Goku --> Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta (After Bulma got slapped)

--> Super Saiyan Goku (After the failed Saiyan ritual and when Gohan said he was stronger than ever)

=> (Super Saiyan?) Vegeta ("You may be stronger than me now")

I do not. Like I said before I see it as a temporary boost.

[dragon boss z]

But back to the old "Base Gohan" discussion.

He has to be stronger than Piccolo. After Tagoma killed Shisami, they said Gohan was the strongest and that wasn't including Super Saiyan. They said Tagoma was as strong as Base Gohan and he slaughtered Piccolo.

Piccolo was wearing weights and then shortly after when he wasn't wearing them he was shown being on par with Gohan so that's clearly how that's meant to be viewed, no getting round it.

The question is it because they forgot how strong Piccolo was and that he was above android/low ssj level, or is it because Gohan retained some of his potential unleashed power making his base stronger than BoG base Goku and Namek Frieza.
The RoF movie made it seem like Gohan wasn't much stronger than Namek Goku as when asked if he could beat Frieza he said "It took my dad everything he had to beat Frieza before and he powered up to another level, I can't win." And also the fact he wasn't even sure if he could go ssj anymore.

What I mainly wanted to bring up is that, even after they'd felt Frieza's power they made out that Buu was going to be their best hope. So he'd be stronger than the other Z Fighters there but would he have been stronger than Frieza in his First Form?

Personally I definitely think Buu is above first form Frieza, but below final form Frieza. I think first form Frieza is around perfect Cell tier, who could stomp everyone who wasn't mssj tier or higher at the same time just as fist form Frieza could have done to them.

[dragon boss z]

The fact that Kale could give Goku as much trouble as she did, fuse with Caulifla, and lose to Gohan makes it entirely nonsensical for Goku to still be stronger than Gohan. Either Kale gained no power upon fusing with Caulifla and Goku was suppressed against Kale, or Kururin was just totally wrong in his statement. Neither of these possibilities actually make any sense whatsoever.

Potara fusion is meant to literally make you several fold stronger and here we have Kefla who apparently gained no power from fusing. Frankly, I think Gohan should reasonably be stronger than Goku if he were able to fight evenly with Kefla who is made up of Kale who was already Blue tier.

As little as that makes sense, that's what Vados said. Kefla = Kale.

Well keep in mind Kale was burning through all of her power at once and it was killing her. If she fought like everyone else her power wouldn't have been that high.

[Bullza]

The question is it because they forgot how strong Piccolo was and that he was above android/low ssj level, or is it because Gohan retained some of his potential unleashed power making his base stronger than BoG base Goku and Namek Frieza.

I've seen a few mention the possibility that they forgot how strong Piccolo was but...it just seems so unlikely. It's not like it was a throwaway comment.

They made a big deal of Piccolo fusing with Kami and surpassing the Super Saiyans. He had a major fight with Android 17 who was repeatedly made out to be stronger than a Super Saiyan.

I'd find that very hard to believe but on the other hand, Gohan shouldn't be as strong as Piccolo if Goku wasn't as strong as Frieza. Krillin put up a decent fight against him, he wasn't that outmatched.

Having some of his Ultimate power left over in him seems like the only explanation that can be made but as far as I know the series only ever made it seem like you either you had it or you didn't, not have part of it.

Is Good Buu still stronger than Super Saiyan Gohan? So over 50 times as strong as Piccolo? It's hard to figure out.

[dragon boss z]

I've seen a few mention the possibility that they forgot how strong Piccolo was but...it just seems so unlikely. It's not like it was a throwaway comment.

Don't forget these are the guys who thought Frieza getting a power level of 1.3 million was impressive... I'm almost certain they got that number from the 530,000 line in the song "F", and I wouldn't be surprised if it came from Toriyama himself, as I'm not sure if Toei would be bold enough to put a direct power level in without his consent (he was also the one who came up with SSG 60% of Beerus and the line of Beerus using 70% of his power to win came up in BoG).

They made a big deal of Piccolo fusing with Kami and surpassing the Super Saiyans. He had a major fight with Android 17 who was repeatedly made out to be stronger than a Super Saiyan.

Ya and if they knew that stuff they should know how ridiculous it was to have Shisami match Piccolo in RoF (stated to be Zarbon/Dadoria level without even mentioned to have gotten stronger), and stomped by Tagoma after getting beaten up for 4 months, meaning Tagoma has more potential that a ssj training in the time chamber for 1 year, and more potential than a Piccolo/Nail/Kami fusion who has been training for dozens of years, and the fact that Nail alone had a higher power level than Tagoma pre training makes it even worse as Nail alone should have higher potential than Tagoma based off of that.

I'd find that very hard to believe but on the other hand, Gohan shouldn't be as strong as Piccolo if Goku wasn't as strong as Frieza. Krillin put up a decent fight against him, he wasn't that outmatched.

In Toriyama's outline it stated out of the fighters there Gohan was the strongest. Toei may have misinterpreted that as base Gohan was the strongest there when Toriyama may have meant full power Gohan was the strongest there. this is backed up by the U6 arc where Goku pretty much said as a fighter he would rather have current Piccolo than current Rusty Gohan, meaning Piccolo must be closer to ssj Gohan level than base, as if ssj Gohan was that much stronger than him his fighting ability wouldn't matter.

Having some of his Ultimate power left over in him seems like the only explanation that can be made but as far as I know the series only ever made it seem like you either you had it or you didn't, not have part of it.

I agree. Really it just seems like everyone was nerfed to me. Piccolo and Gohan were both held back by Frieza soldiers when Krillin was in trouble. Tagoma was stated to be above the Ginyu force, but never above any version of Frieza. In the movie Gohan compared himself to Namek Goku. Frieza siad he would reach a power level of 1.3 million. A few dozen of his soldiers were eaten by a fish. Roshi could keep up with the soldiers. All of them together thought they couldn't beat first form Frieza. All of this just adds up to make everyone look nerfed (except for Roshi who was buffed).

Is Good Buu still stronger than Super Saiyan Gohan? So over 50 times as strong as Piccolo? It's hard to figure out.

I don't think they go by multipliers any more. If Gohan retained some of his ultimate power his ssj form probably only helped him draw more power out, not give a full 50x boost.

[Bullza]

I wouldn't be surprised if it came from Toriyama himself, as I'm not sure if Toei would be bold enough to put a direct power level in without his consent

It most likely was Toriyama, after all he did write the script for the movie. The anime version which he didn't write actually had that 1.3 million line removed probably because the people at Toeink we it didn't make any sense.

Tagoma after getting beaten up for 4 months, meaning Tagoma has more potential that a ssj training in the time chamber for 1 year, and more potential than a Piccolo/Nail/Kami fusion who has been training for dozens of years

Yeah this is true. Sometimes these characters are just as strong as they need to be but...it would mean that Tagoma after four months of being beaten around would have somehow become more powerful than Frieza on Namek.

Sorbet made a thing about him being stronger than the Ginyu Force...you'd think he'd have said something about being him being stronger than Frieza prior but he didn't. If Tagoma was weaker than Frieza on Namek then it could have fit with him being on par with Gohan who should technically also be weaker than Frieza on Namek.

In Toriyama's outline it stated out of the fighters there Gohan was the strongest.

Was it? I can only recall Frieza singling out Gohan as the one who could defeat a 1,000 man army in am instant rather than Piccolo. That was before he knew about Super Saiyan too.

Goku pretty much said as a fighter he would rather have current Piccolo than current Rusty Gohan

I can't remember that either so I'll have to watch out for that. They seemed pretty even when they fought, Piccolo even removed his weights for it.

[ZombieVito]

I'm not at home to look at the script but I do remember him writting in there this: "Gohan is the strongest and Piccolo is strong too".

[dragon boss z]

Was it? I can only recall Frieza singling out Gohan as the one who could defeat a 1,000 man army in am instant rather than Piccolo. That was before he knew about Super Saiyan too.

Ya, but he didn't say Piccolo couldn't, he was just looking and thinking about Gohan at the time. It would be pretty said if Piccolo couldn't defeat a 1,000 man army in an instant considering namek first form Frieza could.

I can't remember that either so I'll have to watch out for that. They seemed pretty even when they fought, Piccolo even removed his weights for it.

Here is the manga scan, he says something similar in the anime as well.
[spoiler][/spoiler]

I'm not at home to look at the script but I do remember him writting in there this: "Gohan is the strongest and Piccolo is strong too".

Ya, I believe it was something like that, and with that and the Goku thinking Piccolo would be better in the ToP line, I think Piccolo is supposed to be close to ssj Gohan but weaker, but still good enough as a fighter to possibly be better for the tournament.

[ZombieVito]

Was it? I can only recall Frieza singling out Gohan as the one who could defeat a 1,000 man army in am instant rather than Piccolo. That was before he knew about Super Saiyan too.

Ya, but he didn't say Piccolo couldn't, he was just looking and thinking about Gohan at the time. It would be pretty said if Piccolo couldn't defeat a 1,000 man army in an instant considering namek first form Frieza could.

I can't remember that either so I'll have to watch out for that. They seemed pretty even when they fought, Piccolo even removed his weights for it.

Here is the manga scan, he says something similar in the anime as well.
[spoiler][/spoiler]

I'm not at home to look at the script but I do remember him writting in there this: "Gohan is the strongest and Piccolo is strong too".

Ya, I believe it was something like that, and with that and the Goku thinking Piccolo would be better in the ToP line, I think Piccolo is supposed to be close to ssj Gohan but weaker, but still good enough as a fighter to possibly be better for the tournament.

Yeah, Piccolo is weaker than Super Saiyan Gohan in RoF but not by that much.

It makes zero sense for him to attack Tagoma like that if he's weaker than base Gohan, who can't even handle Super Saiyan anymore.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

It makes zero sense for him to attack Tagoma like that if he's weaker than base Gohan, who can't even handle Super Saiyan anymore.

He attacked Raditz when he shit talked him. And wanted to fight 1st form Freeza despite the fact it was made obvious by Neil that he was going to be murdered. And he straight up challenged Vegeta to a fight in Mecha Arc. And wanted to go after Boo twice.

Gohan's statement about Piccolo not underestimating his opponents does get contradiced. A lot.

[TheSaiyanGod]

In this chapter, Kuririn basically confirmed that neither Gohan, Kefla or Kale are Blue tier.

Kuririn questioned whether Gohan could SURPASS Goku if he continued training, that is, this has not yet happened. Then Gohan, who is inferior to Goku, drew with Kefla, who is stronger than Kale.

So, Goku> Gohan = Kefla> Kale, even if it does not make much sense

The fact that Kale could give Goku as much trouble as she did, fuse with Caulifla, and lose to Gohan makes it entirely nonsensical for Goku to still be stronger than Gohan. Either Kale gained no power upon fusing with Caulifla and Goku was suppressed against Kale, or Kururin was just totally wrong in his statement. Neither of these possibilities actually make any sense whatsoever.

Potara fusion is meant to literally make you several fold stronger and here we have Kefla who apparently gained no power from fusing. Frankly, I think Gohan should reasonably be stronger than Goku if he were able to fight evenly with Kefla who is made up of Kale who was already Blue tier.

Well, Vados says that Kefla is the combination of Kale's strength with Caulifla's sense of battle. So the power of Kale in this case was much more decisive
This may make Kefla not so much more powerful than Kale herself.
Nothing in this chapter suggests that Gohan overcame Goku, Piccolo himself says he just had time to regain his sense of battle over the short time, and Kuririn himself asks if Gohan COULD overcome his father if he continued training (which confirms that Gohan is weaker).

This also causes Kale alone to be considerably weaker than Kefla and Gohan and the two are also inferior to Goku, and so he and Freeza restrained themselves in the fight against Kale

[ZombieVito]

He attacked Raditz when he shit talked him. And wanted to fight 1st form Freeza despite the fact it was made obvious by Neil that he was going to be murdered. And he straight up challenged Vegeta to a fight in Mecha Arc. And wanted to go after Boo twice.

Gohan's statement about Piccolo not underestimating his opponents does get contradiced. A lot.

Well he was cocky at the time Raditz arrived at Earth. He changes after Goku's death and interacting with Gohan, even God says so.

He didn't know how strong Freeza was outside of "stronger than Vegeta" and once he arrived on Namek, the only thing left for him to do is to go and help Gohan and Kuririn. He never tells Nail he was going to fight Freeza alone.

Goku grouped him and Vegeta in the Mecha arc so they must be close. Nothing wrong here.

He wanted to go fight Boo so he would stop killing innocents. He made it very clear he stood 0 chance and was going to die.

When it comes to Tagoma not only does he go alone (after Tagoma said that all of them can attack him at once) but he doesn't even remove his weighted clothes. He even acts cocky after seeing Tagoma nearly kill base Gohan.

It's like if Roshi attacked Raditz after seeing him one shotting Goku and expected to win. It makes no sense.

[Koitsukai]

So, Kefla in the anime is of the highest blue tier or more, and in the manga, Gohan tier. I guess Toriyama never made clear where she was suppose to stand, and in both, her power level is left to the spectator's choice (I mean, we can't fully agree like we do about other fighters, with the genki dama and all that, and in the manga don't know if she got weaker or if Gohan got incredibly incredibly incredibly stronger).
So do you guys think this nerfs her down a bit? I mean, is like they are two different characters, we sort of can reconciliate pretty much everyone in the DB universe but Kefla is an odd ball. I for one, believe now that a fully rested SSBlue Goku could take her, after seeing Gohan do that in the manga.

Oh Toriyama, and to think people blame everything on Toei

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Piccolo attacking Tagoma doesn't really say much other than he most likely underestimated him. The attack on Base Gohan was a sneak attack, so it doesn't really say much when it comes to his comparison with Piccolo. Gohan being regarded as the strongest and his sparring match with Piccolo shows them to be roughly around the same level. Suppressed Tagoma clowned Piccolo. Super Saiyan Gohan demolished the powered-up Ginyu Tagoma. Piccolo is a lot weaker than Super Saiyan Gohan.

I still don't understand why Sorbet would refer to Shisami as the strongest in Freeza's army and then hype up Tagoma for surpassing the Ginyu Force. Shisami should already be far above that if Sorbet believes he'll defeat the entire team alone.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

As far as Gohan being called the most powerful by Tagoma, he could've just deduced that based on Gohan being the one to step up to fight Shisami.
I'm not sure if there's any implication that Base Gohan specifically was being referred to as the strongest, just Gohan in general.