Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[dbzfan7]

I got it as

UI Goku>SSJ2 Kefla>SSJB KKx20 Goku>=SSJ Kefla>SSJB Goku>Base Kefla>God Goku.

[PushoverMediaCritic]

There's also Roshi saying that Goku wouldn't survive if any of Kafla's red lasers hit him.

[SuperDragoon]

So how strong are SSB Vegetto, Fusion Zamasu, and Beerus now compared to the likes of Ultra Instinct Goku, SSJ2 Kefla, and Jiren?

[TheSaiyanGod]

So yeah to me what it seems like it's getting at is that

Super Saiyan Kefla would be stronger than Super Saiyan Blue Goku Kaioken x20 because her power rivalled the Spirit Bomb and of course the Spirit Bomb was the ace in the hole on top of everything Goku did prior.

Ultra Instinct Goku in Episode 110 would be less than twice as strong as Super Saiyan Kefla so that it allowed Super Saiyan 2 Kefla to surpass him.

Then this Ultra Instinct Goku who was said to be stronger than before is comfortably above that.

If all that was the case then Super Saiyan Blue is not necessarily like 50 times as strong as Super Saiyan God after all.

Now I need to go back and rewatching parts of the last episode to try and come up with a reason why Super Saiyan Blue Goku seemed to do so well. Unless tat was another Base Goku bs Super Saiyan 2 Caulifla kind of situation.

It is much more plausible to say that Kefla overcame the power of Goku on EP 115 (before activating the UI again), ie Goku SSB Kaioken

But the indication that Goku needed to draw out even more power fighting her and them making him out to be stronger than before would seem perhaps unnecessary otherwise.

Plus the comment about her power rivalling the Spirit Bomb as just Super Saiyan would seem to add to it.

The Genki Dama used by Goku was not that powerful. It only had the energy of 8 members of the U7 team (not even Vegeta gave the energy to form the technique).

This Whis speech can also be interpreted differently. Kefla would not necessarily have the same amount of energy / strength as the Genki Dama, but her power / ability (to make Goku break his limits again and activate the UI, something Genki Dama did before). After all, she did not show a power above Goku SSB on EP 115, she was only able to defeat him by catching him off guard

[Noah]

Did someone got right Whis explanation about why UI Goku attacks were unnefective on Kefla?

[SuperDragoon]

Whis and Piccolo's statement pretty much debunk the idea that Kefla was weak. I'm pretty much convinced that Kefla was holding back against Kaioken Goku at this point. Only way it explains her being compared to the Spirit Bomb.

[pacz360]

So how strong are SSB Vegetto, Fusion Zamasu, and Beerus now compared to the likes of Ultra Instinct Goku, SSJ2 Kefla, and Jiren?

I see ssjb vegito and merged zamasu>ssj2 kefla
Beerus~ssjb vegito>=UI goku

[TheSaiyanGod]

Whis and Piccolo's statement pretty much debunk the idea that Kefla was weak. I'm pretty much convinced that Kefla was holding back against Kaioken Goku at this point. Only way it explains her being compared to the Spirit Bomb.

Now that I've seen this part of the EP, Whis referred to SSJ Kefla at the beginning of the episode (about his being comparable to Genki Dama). And she was clearly weaker than SSB Kaioken Goku in the last episode and had not demonstrated any additional power in this part

We can only interpret the Whis speech as - the power of Kefla is comparable to that of the Genki Dama in order to make Goku awaken the UI again, and not related to his strength

[SuperDragoon]

Whis and Piccolo's statement pretty much debunk the idea that Kefla was weak. I'm pretty much convinced that Kefla was holding back against Kaioken Goku at this point. Only way it explains her being compared to the Spirit Bomb.

Now that I've seen this part of the EP, Whis referred to SSJ Kefla at the beginning of the episode (about his being comparable to Genki Dama). And she was clearly weaker than SSB Kaioken Goku in the last episode and had not demonstrated any additional power in that part

We can only interpret the Whis speech as - the power of Kefla is comparable to that of the Genki Dama in order to make Goku awaken the UI again, and not related to his strength

That's literally conjecture. Whis was talking about strength in his statement.

[PushoverMediaCritic]

Here's some stand-in numbers to show where I think the various character stand compared to each other.

God Goku: 2
Base Kafla: 3
Blue Goku: 6
Blue Kaioken x 20 Goku: 120
SS1 Kafla: 150
Spirit Bomb: 160
Merged Zamasu: 260
UIO Goku (vs Jiren): 280
SS2 Kafla: 300
Blue Vegetto: 300
UIO Goku (vs Kafla): 320
Beerus: 350
Jiren: 400

[Noah]

Here's some stand-in numbers to show where I think the various character stand compared to each other...

Sorry to bust your bubble, but Jiren is not stronger than Beerus.

[Bullza]

The Genki Dama used by Goku was not that powerful. It only had the energy of 8 members of the U7 team (not even Vegeta gave the energy to form the technique).

I don't think it would make too much sense for Goku to get effortlessly blasted out as a Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken x20 and then as a result use his trump card, the Spirit Bomb if then the Spirit Bomb was intended to put out even less power than before and not actually be that powerful.

Also bare in mind the Spirit Bomb from the Future Trunks saga was made from just a couple hundred humans and that was enough to finish off Merged Zamasu.

[Guesswhoo]

It is not kelfa that is being downplayed here, it is ssb vegito.
Why do people think that ssb vegito is weaker than beerus, UI and Jiren ?

[Cetra]

I actually take back my "I wanted Kafla to hit Goku" statement. It is good that she did not. Goku barely getting away from her attacks and actually touching them a bit was enough to show that even with this form he could not have taken her lightly.

[TheSaiyanGod]

Whis and Piccolo's statement pretty much debunk the idea that Kefla was weak. I'm pretty much convinced that Kefla was holding back against Kaioken Goku at this point. Only way it explains her being compared to the Spirit Bomb.

Now that I've seen this part of the EP, Whis referred to SSJ Kefla at the beginning of the episode (about his being comparable to Genki Dama). And she was clearly weaker than SSB Kaioken Goku in the last episode and had not demonstrated any additional power in that part

We can only interpret the Whis speech as - the power of Kefla is comparable to that of the Genki Dama in order to make Goku awaken the UI again, and not related to his strength

That's literally conjecture. Whis was talking about strength in his statement.

Whis completes his speech later, stating that this power of Kefla incited Goku to '' break the shell '' again (this was exactly what Genki Dama did on EP 110, that is why the angel made this comparison). This speech need not be interpreted literally

Whis : ''Kefla's energy rivaled the power of the Spirit Bomb he bathed in. It incited Goku allowing him to break through another of his self - limiting shells''

[Lord Beerus]

Here's some stand-in numbers to show where I think the various character stand compared to each other...

Sorry to bust your bubble, but Jiren is not stronger than Beerus.

Jiren has been confirmed to not only be on the same realm of power as the Hakaishin, but possibly even so strong a Hakaishin can't defeat him.

[Noah]

Why do people think that SSB Vegito is weaker than Beerus, UI and Jiren?

They are nuts, there's no reason to think Vegetto is below anyone else than Beerus.

Jiren has been confirmed to not only be on the same realm of power as the Hakaishin, but possibly even so strong a Hakaishin can't defeat him.

Beerus showed no reaction that we could interpret Jiren is stronger than him, Belmod maybe? Sure, but Beerus could also be stronger than him.

[PushoverMediaCritic]

Here's some stand-in numbers to show where I think the various character stand compared to each other...

Sorry to bust your bubble, but Jiren is not stronger than Beerus.

Jiren is absolutely stronger than Beerus. He's stronger than his god of destruction, Vermoud, who himself is physically stronger than Beerus.

[Noah]

Jiren is absolutely stronger than Beerus. He's stronger than his god of destruction, Vermoud, who himself is physically stronger than Beerus.

And that was implied when exactly...?

[Helios518]

You're talking about the thing where Kaio-sama could see the MFTL ships but couldn't see SSJ Goku and Freeza fight, right? If so, that's not a sign of the fight being FTL considering IRL humans could see jets move a sonic speeds while most of them could barely keep up with a flurry of punches.

Well he wouldn't have been using his eyes anyway would he? He was able to target Goku and keep track of him while he was on a MFTL spaceship but couldn't do the same when he was flying around and fighting Frieza.

In real life you wouldn't see the flurry of punches but you'd still see the person throwing them.

Would you keep track of two dragonflies zipping around more easily than you would two cars racing in a straight line?

I believe two cars would be easier to track than two dragon flies.