Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[PushoverMediaCritic]

Jiren is absolutely stronger than Beerus. He's stronger than his god of destruction, Vermoud, who himself is physically stronger than Beerus.

And that was implied when exactly...?

Whis literally said it himself. He said that the God of Destruction, who can't beat this mortal, is stronger than Beerus when the concept of this mortal was first introduced.

[Hakaishin Liquir]

Jiren is absolutely stronger than Beerus. He's stronger than his god of destruction, Vermoud, who himself is physically stronger than Beerus.

And that was implied when exactly...?

Whis literally said it himself. He said that the God of Destruction, who can't beat this mortal, is stronger than Beerus when the concept of this mortal was first introduced.

In before "But it was just an arm wrestling match!"

[Marlowe89]

Did someone got right Whis explanation about why UI Goku attacks were unnefective on Kefla?

I was trying to understand that one myself, but the subs seemed a bit awkwardly-translated. It appears that Whis was saying something about Goku's instinctual/mindless state in that form preventing him from concentrating fully on maximizing the power of his attacks, so in the future, he would need to improve Ultra Instinct to be able to exert more control over it. Or maybe it was the opposite. It didn't seem all too clear to me.

Edit: Looking at Herms' tweets, it looks like it was the opposite after all -- i.e. Goku's attacks were ineffective because he was thinking about them, when really he should have used the instinctual attributes of his current state to maximize their power.

[TheSaiyanGod]

The Genki Dama used by Goku was not that powerful. It only had the energy of 8 members of the U7 team (not even Vegeta gave the energy to form the technique).

I don't think it would make too much sense for Goku to get effortlessly blasted out as a Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken x20 and then as a result use his trump card, the Spirit Bomb if then the Spirit Bomb was intended to put out even less power than before and not actually be that powerful.

Also bare in mind the Spirit Bomb from the Future Trunks saga was made from just a couple hundred humans and that was enough to finish off Merged Zamasu.

The Genki Dama is a technique, and usually has an effect on enemies far more powerful than the user. For example, Goku was able to push and kill Kid Boo with Genki Dama using only SSJ (even though Kid Boo is stronger than Goku SSJ3).

But your amount of energy does not necessarily have to outperform the user. Do you think that some of the energy of 8 people is enough to overcome the power of Goku SSB KK x20?

Whis's talk about Kefla rivaling Genki Dama's power was at the beginning of EP 116, and Kefla had not done anything yet (there was only left of the previous episode where Champa himself said she would only have chances against Goku SSB because he is tired).
How did she get so strong without doing anything? More proof that Whis was not talking about just power, but about her having forced Goku to use UI as well as Genki Dama

[Guesswhoo]

Why do people think that SSB Vegito is weaker than Beerus, UI and Jiren?

They are nuts, there's no reason to think Vegetto is below anyone else than Beerus

The problem is still there.
In the manga, ssb vegito was already stronger than beerus and he was just toying around .

[PushoverMediaCritic]

And that was implied when exactly...?

Whis literally said it himself. He said that the God of Destruction, who can't beat this mortal, is stronger than Beerus when the concept of this mortal was first introduced.

In before "But it was just an arm wrestling match!"

An arm wrestling match is still a contest of strength. Beerus might be able to win in a fight, but Vermoud's Power Level is higher.

[Noah]

Whis literally said it himself. He said that the God of Destruction, who can't beat this mortal, is stronger than Beerus when the concept of this mortal was first introduced.

The said Hakaishin won at an arm wrestling match against Beerus, it could pretty much be Quitella since it's implied there's something between them, also I don't remember Beerus interacting with Belmod in this tournament yet.

The problem is still there. In the manga, SSB Vegito was already stronger than Beerus and he was just toying around.

The manga should be discarded in this anime comparison, I believe in the anime Shin commented he never felt an energy like SSJB Vegetto before, but we also don't know if he ever felt the full extend of Beerus power.

[Bullza]

I took a look at the last episode to try and justify what happened in this one and this is all I've got.

- Goku might have been tired and might not have had his full stamina but it might not really be effecting is overall power. So he'd generally be about as strong as usual.

- Kefla did actually seem to power up after fighting regular Super Saiyan Blue Goku so she would probably have been suppressed beforehand anyway.

- Goku may not necessarily have only used Kaioken x2. He could have used a much higher amount, maybe x10 or even x20. It's not like be actually said Kaioken x20 against Jiren either.

- Maybe Kefla just knocked Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken Goku out from just sheer power alone and actually wasn't so much because he was caught off guard which nobody actually said.

[Helios518]

What's more absurd to say: Kafla is using a Mastered SSJBerserk 2 or her SSJ2 is god tier?

[dragon boss z]

Jiren is absolutely stronger than Beerus. He's stronger than his god of destruction, Vermoud, who himself is physically stronger than Beerus.

And that was implied when exactly...?

Whis literally said it himself. He said that the God of Destruction, who can't beat this mortal, is stronger than Beerus when the concept of this mortal was first introduced.

It was confirmed in the manga that it was the GoD of universe 4 that beat Beerus in the arm wrestle, not Vermoud.

[PushoverMediaCritic]

And that was implied when exactly...?

Whis literally said it himself. He said that the God of Destruction, who can't beat this mortal, is stronger than Beerus when the concept of this mortal was first introduced.

It was confirmed in the manga that it was the GoD of universe 4 that beat Beerus in the arm wrestle, not Vermoud.

Still doesn't change what Whis said. Beerus may have thought he was talking about a different GoD, but Whis still said that the one with the powerful mortal is stronger than Beerus.

[TheSaiyanGod]

I took a look at the last episode to try and justify what happened in this one and this is all I've got.

- Goku might have been tired and might not have had his full stamina but it might not really be effecting is overall power. So he'd generally be about as strong as usual.

- Kefla did actually seem to power up after fighting regular Super Saiyan Blue Goku so she would probably have been suppressed beforehand anyway.

- Goku may not necessarily have only used Kaioken x2. He could have used a much higher amount, maybe x10 or even x20. It's not like be actually said Kaioken x20 against Jiren either.

- Maybe Kefla just knocked Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken Goku out from just sheer power alone and actually wasn't so much because he was caught off guard which nobody actually said.

- No, in the last EP, the power of Goku really was affected. Champa says that Kefla only has chances against Goku SSB because he has not yet recovered from the fight against Jiren (implying that if he was with 100% of his power, he would win Kefla, then SSB Goku full power> Kefla).

- Kefla did not increase her power in the form of SSJ, she only became more powerful when she became SSJ2 (she had problems in the last EP, so she would not have to save energy)

- In the fight against Jiren, Goku did not need to mention that he was using the Kaioken x20. Whis himself said that to us.
And if he would not even have the energy to support Blue, how could he handle a Kaioken increased by 10 times?

- It was clear that Goku was defeated because he was caught off guard. If Kefla had the power to defeat the Blue Kaioken, he would have done it sooner (remembering that his arms were shaking only with a Goku punch in that form)

[dragon boss z]

Yep

No.

Rivalled and only in reference to the spirit bomb, not goku or goku + SB.

Feel. Nothing concrete here. I could feel like I could do X, even if I obviously can't.

Might. Again, nothing concrete.

Seems obvious to me.

I'm super low balling goku until/if we get more info in the future.

1. Implying the Spirit Bomb was below Kaioken SSB Goku?
2. Even though SSG Goku is capable of destroying a universe and Kefla>>>>SSG Goku?
3. Implying Piccolo is wrong....somehow? He's never been the one to misinterpret someone's power like you're implying.

You are being biased and intellectually dishonest by downplaying a character you don't like.

1. He said SSB Kaioken Goku + the spirit bomb. Which means Goku + spirit bomb is more than just the spirit bomb.

2. I really don't even think SSG Goku could destroy the universe in one shot. The GoD seem to be universe level, which means that characters like Jiren, UI Goku, and ssj2 Kefla may be as well, however we now know SSG Goku is over 100x weaker than Beerus and characters like Golden Frieza were never mentioned to have the ability to destroy the universe. And in the manga Merged Zamasu practically said he was galaxy level in almost the exact same way Cell said he was solar system level.

[dragon boss z]

Whis literally said it himself. He said that the God of Destruction, who can't beat this mortal, is stronger than Beerus when the concept of this mortal was first introduced.

It was confirmed in the manga that it was the GoD of universe 4 that beat Beerus in the arm wrestle, not Vermoud.

Still doesn't change what Whis said. Beerus may have thought he was talking about a different GoD, but Whis still said that the one with the powerful mortal is stronger than Beerus.

Whis didn't even know Jiren was the mortal until the tournament, and for all you know one of U4 fighters (possibly a fusion of the two hidden characters) may be the fighter stronger than a GoD. And Whis specifically said the GoD beat Beerus in an arm wrestle, he didn't say physically stronger. both the manga and anime said arm wrestle. It is almost 100% supposed to be the same god Whis is talking about unless Beerus goes around arm wrestling every GoD and in the GoD rumble it was clearly shown that Quitella and Beerus were the strongest, with Belmod sneakily pretending he was weak. So unless it gets confirmed that Whis was talking about Vermoud, you can't say he is the one Whis was talking about.

[Helios518]

2. I really don't even think SSG Goku could destroy the universe in one shot. The GoD seem to be universe level, which means that characters like Jiren, UI Goku, and ssj2 Kefla may be as well, however we now know SSG Goku is over 100x weaker than Beerus and characters like Golden Frieza were never mentioned to have the ability to destroy the universe. And in the manga Merged Zamasu practically said he was galaxy level in almost the exact same way Cell said he was solar system level.

The narrator explicitly stated that SSJG-absorbed SSJ Goku and suppressed Beerus are hitting each other with the power to destroy the universe.

https://gfycat.com/GregariousMadAnnelid

[TheSaiyanGod]

I just can not see Kefla SSJ2 on the same level as characters like SSB Vegetto or Jiren (it's weirder she's reached that level and no one even mentioned it). After all, Piccolo just says that she has surpassed the previous level of Goku (referring to the level shown in EP 115, where Goku uses only the Blue Kaioken being tired). Whis talk about the Genki Dama does not have to be interpreted in a literal way, nor does it signify that she had as much energy as a Genki Dama (who was not so powerful). Whis was still referring to SSJ Kefla, who already had level set in episode 115

For me Kefla is in this tier, SSB - SSB Kaioken, nothing more.

[pacz360]

No.

Rivalled and only in reference to the spirit bomb, not goku or goku + SB.

Feel. Nothing concrete here. I could feel like I could do X, even if I obviously can't.

Might. Again, nothing concrete.

Seems obvious to me.

I'm super low balling goku until/if we get more info in the future.

1. Implying the Spirit Bomb was below Kaioken SSB Goku?
2. Even though SSG Goku is capable of destroying a universe and Kefla>>>>SSG Goku?
3. Implying Piccolo is wrong....somehow? He's never been the one to misinterpret someone's power like you're implying.

You are being biased and intellectually dishonest by downplaying a character you don't like.

1. He said SSB Kaioken Goku + the spirit bomb. Which means Goku + spirit bomb is more than just the spirit bomb.

2. I really don't even think SSG Goku could destroy the universe in one shot. The GoD seem to be universe level, which means that characters like Jiren, UI Goku, and ssj2 Kefla may be as well, however we now know SSG Goku is over 100x weaker than Beerus and characters like Golden Frieza were never mentioned to have the ability to destroy the universe. And in the manga Merged Zamasu practically said he was galaxy level in almost the exact same way Cell said he was solar system level.

It was stated multiple times ssjg goku and beerus were stated to be capable of destroying the universe feats and statements supported so don't see the point of downplaying it m8

[pacz360]

I just can not see Kefla SSJ2 on the same level as characters like SSB Vegetto or Jiren (it's weirder she's reached that level and no one even mentioned it). After all, Piccolo just says that she has surpassed the previous level of Goku (referring to the level shown in EP 115, where Goku uses only the Blue Kaioken being tired). Whis talk about the Genki Dama does not have to be interpreted in a literal way, nor does it signify that she had as much energy as a Genki Dama (who was not so powerful). Whis was still referring to SSJ Kefla, who already had level set in episode 115

For me Kefla is in this tier, SSB - SSB Kaioken, nothing more.

Her attacks were stated to be a threat to UI goku tho

[Marlowe89]

I really don't even think SSG Goku could destroy the universe in one shot.

Maybe not in one shot, but he certainly has the power to destroy the universe after two or three shots as evidenced by his clashes against Beerus. In fact, he specifically had to match Beerus' strength output to cancel it out and prevent this from happening, so we can't say it was only because of Beerus that the universe was threatened (especially since the characters also attributed the universal scale to SSG Goku's power).

These characters are far above galaxy level.

[Guesswhoo]

Whis literally said it himself. He said that the God of Destruction, who can't beat this mortal, is stronger than Beerus when the concept of this mortal was first introduced.

The said Hakaishin won at an arm wrestling match against Beerus, it could pretty much be Quitella since it's implied there's something between them, also I don't remember Beerus interacting with Belmod in this tournament yet.

The problem is still there. In the manga, SSB Vegito was already stronger than Beerus and he was just toying around.

The manga should be discarded in this anime comparison, I believe in the anime Shin commented he never felt an energy like SSJB Vegetto before, but we also don't know if he ever felt the full extend of Beerus

If Beerus is stronger than ssb vegito then UI (full stamina) and Jiren are stronger than ssb vegito which is not not possible since Ep 116 proved that the power gap between UI and SSBKK is comparable to SSJ 1 and SSJ 2, the boost given by potara fusion dwarf that gap.

So it goes like this in my head:
Vegito ssb > Jiren > UI (full stamina) > Beerus > ... > tired UI >ssj 2 berserk kelfa >> tired ssbkk >= ssj 1 berserk kelfa