Super Animation Catalogue 2.0

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Animation Comparisons - (Eps 1 - 20) [Update 1]

Post by Ajay » Mon Nov 23, 2015 6:54 pm

Thanks all. I plan to keep this up to date each week, so hopefully it'll be a useful guide at some point in the future.
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Re: Animation Comparisons - (Eps 1 - 20) [Update 1]

Post by Theophrastus » Mon Nov 23, 2015 8:04 pm

Besides Yamamuro, I think my "favorite" might actually be Ishikawa.

Is that...strange?

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Re: Animation Comparisons - (Eps 1 - 20) [Update 1]

Post by Noah » Mon Nov 23, 2015 8:45 pm

Great thread, Ajay! :thumbup:

Now seeing all these comparisons, for me Tadayoshi Yamamuro is still the best animator we have so far. The guy just knows how to draw Dragon Ball, that's it.
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Re: Animation Comparisons - (Eps 1 - 20) [Update 1]

Post by Beerus-sama » Mon Nov 23, 2015 9:02 pm

Thanks for this thread Ajay, I like these kind of threads that shows you the art of every animator so that we can recognize it better.

I like Ishikawa's style the most :D :D
the followers would be Shimanuki, Toma and Tate from episode 11 onwards :D
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Re: Animation Comparisons - (Eps 1 - 20) [Update 1]

Post by Sodhi » Tue Nov 24, 2015 12:53 am

Looks like Tatsuya Oka is back as a supervisor for episode 21. I have yet to see him work alone as a supervisor.

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Re: Animation Comparisons - (Eps 1 - 20) [Update 1]

Post by jrdemr » Tue Nov 24, 2015 5:01 am

Solid job, Ajay, keep it going!

Looking at all the screenshots posted, it's clear to see that Dragon Ball Super's artwork is far more consistent than both DB and DBZ. Nowhere do the different artists' styles stand out from each other as much as they did back in the day. True, we could get really stellar episodes before, but also pretty shitty ones. Dragon Ball Super seldom gets something really eye-popping, but at least it's a lot more coherent.

Personally, I think I prefer the way it is now. It may not achieve the pristine quality the old series did sometimes, but at least it's not a stylistic roller coaster.

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Re: Animation Comparisons - (Eps 1 - 20) [Update 1]

Post by jelleline89 » Tue Nov 24, 2015 6:59 am

Ajay wrote:Please forgive the watermarks. The last time I put effort into something like this, it was shamelessly stolen and reposted everywhere.
Anyone, including myself, could easily remove those watermarks. Simply by having access to HD recordings, a keen eye, and dedication. When I eventually start watching the series again, I'll prove my point. Trying to put watermarks on a source that is already available to the masses is pretentious and plain stupid. All you did was put text on the pictures to indicate who was responsible for what shot and you think that's worthy of watermarking? Get a grip on reality.

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Re: Animation Comparisons - (Eps 1 - 20) [Update 1]

Post by Ajay » Tue Nov 24, 2015 7:15 am

jelleline89 wrote: Anyone, including myself, could easily remove those watermarks. Simply by having access to HD recordings, a keen eye, and dedication. When I eventually start watching the series again, I'll prove my point. Trying to put watermarks on a source that is already available to the masses is pretentious and plain stupid. All you did was put text on the pictures to indicate who was responsible for what shot and you think that's worthy of watermarking? Get a grip on reality.
I'm aware. You're not wrong, but you are being unbelievably, and unnecessarily rude.

They're there to stop one name in the fandom in particular who makes a habit of taking things, watermarking them, and claiming them as his own. He doesn't have the knowledge to remove them, and that's pretty much all that matters. It's a discouragement tool, not an outright defense force against it. After spending many hours sifting through 20 episodes to find matching shots, yeah, I'd rather someone like that not make ad-revenue from it. If that made me look pretentious, well damn, that's a shame. But hey, if it helps you sleep at night, I decided against the idea in all the images that followed the first post.

Either way, learn how to talk to people. I've had to deal with your nonsense before, and it's tiring. That's not the way users on this forum talk to one another.
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Re: Animation Comparisons - (Eps 1 - 20) [Update 1]

Post by Araki » Tue Nov 24, 2015 8:27 am

From episode 17, i think Ishikawa made only the first half, but i see some scenes from the inferior 2nd half there..
Sodhi wrote:Looks like Tatsuya Oka is back as a supervisor for episode 21. I have yet to see him work alone as a supervisor.
He's probably gonna get assistance again, the magazines tend to list only one supervisor.
jrdemr wrote:Looking at all the screenshots posted, it's clear to see that Dragon Ball Super's artwork is far more consistent than both DB and DBZ. Nowhere do the different artists' styles stand out from each other as much as they did back in the day. True, we could get really stellar episodes before, but also pretty shitty ones. Dragon Ball Super seldom gets something really eye-popping, but at least it's a lot more coherent.
Yeah, that's what people who understand what "art" is have been saying. But it should be pretty obvious looking at any montage from Z/GT, where Goku could look like five different persons, being two very crappy ones. Super looks more like DB in that regard.

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Re: Animation Comparisons - (Eps 1 - 20) [Update 1]

Post by VegettoEX » Tue Nov 24, 2015 12:05 pm

jelleline89 wrote:Get a grip on reality.
As noted, this is not an appropriate way to talk with other members. You have perfectly fine things to say, but if you're not willing to say them in an appropriate manner, we're not willing to have you as a community member.

We take this very seriously. Ain't nobody got time for that crap. Account strikes add up to temporary/permanent bans, which revoke access to the entirety of the website. Less B.S., more time for us all to have fun and work on cool things. You already have two account strikes. Take a step back and think about this, please.
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Re: Animation Comparisons - (Eps 1 - 20) [Update 1]

Post by DragonBalllKaiHD » Tue Nov 24, 2015 12:41 pm

I'm thrilled that you made a thread dedicating to animation supervisors for Dragon Ball Super. I have been wanting to create a thread about animation in general. We will see how my thread will turn out for an interesting discussions.

As others have already noted, the models are pretty consistent with one another within the episodes, but I'm not entirely sure if that is a good thing. One of charms the three original series was that each episode looks different. Each has the unique character designs from an animation supervisor. That is what makes it fun to figure out who animated the episodes. Dragon Ball Super on the other hand makes it harder for us to figure out who animated which episode. So far, I have only been able to tell if Yamamuro (it's very obvious) or Shimanuki supervised it. I get the gist of Kitano. He rarely put shiny shade on the characters. Yashima kind of reminds me of Uchiyama. Other than that, beats me.

Only four veterans have returned to the franchise - Naoki Tate, Masahiro Shimanuki, Naotoshi Shida, and Tadayoshi Yamamuro. Shida is the only one who didn't animate an episode.
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Re: Animation Comparisons - (Eps 1 - 20) [Update 1]

Post by JulieYBM » Tue Nov 24, 2015 12:46 pm

Dragon Ball Super uses the role of sou-sakuga kantoku (chief animation supervisor) for every episode, something Dragon Ball Z and Dragon Ball GT did not do but on two occasions. The chief animation supervisor brings consistency between the animation supervisors by doing a second pass over the key animation themselves. It's a role that has been more and more common, especially as designs become more complex and fans want cute characters to look, well, cute, something you can't always get from bad key animators. Most of Toei Animation's series now use one or two chief animation supervisors to maintain some form of consistency, at least where the subject of bad animation supervisors are concerned.
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Re: Animation Comparisons - (Eps 1 - 20) [Update 1]

Post by Ajay » Tue Nov 24, 2015 4:51 pm

DragonBalllKaiHD wrote:One of charms the three original series was that each episode looks different. Each has the unique character designs from an animation supervisor. That is what makes it fun to figure out who animated the episodes. Dragon Ball Super on the other hand makes it harder for us to figure out who animated which episode.
JulieYBM wrote:The chief animation supervisor brings consistency between the animation supervisors by doing a second pass over the key animation themselves.
I think I'm in two minds on the subject; I really did enjoy the variety of different looking episodes that each of the previous series had during their run, but I won't pretend I liked much of the Ebisawa or Uchiyama lead work. Heck, even some of Shimanuki's later work wasn't for me. But without them, you wouldn't have any of the unique looking Masunaga episodes or the intense Ishikawa stuff. Uniformity can be a great way to iron out the bad, but it's often at the cost of stifling the good. On the other side of it, I think it depends on how much a person enjoys a show's character designs. As someone who usually dislikes Yamamuro's work, I'm often wishing animators were allowed to flourish. It can be very hard to strike a balance, and of course, it depends entirely on the quality of the initial drawing.

Animator flair can be a great way to turn an otherwise uninteresting episode into a reasonably memorable one. I think Super #4 and #16 are very good examples of that -- especially the former. Ultimately, the Pilaf gang didn't really get up to much, but Toma's unique style has stored that episode firmly in my mind. Outside of Vegeta's hilarious antics in #16, there wasn't masses of interesting content. But again, Iseki's attempt at moving away from Yamamuro's designs makes it all the more engaging, and as a result, much more memorable.

In terms of modern Dragon Ball, I'm not totally opposed to uniformity, but I do wish animators were given more opportunities to flex their creative muscles. It can help make a moment more intense or funnier. You can see that used rather effectively in Episode #229 of Z:
It's pretty far removed from Yamamuro's designs back then, but it helps that moment stand out so clearly. I imagine I'm not the only one whose mind jumps to those insane expressions when thinking about Majin Vegeta. My issue with a lot of the content nowadays -- especially with the latest movies -- is that the potential for these moments are being erased. The personality of the animation is being overdrawn by Yamamuro, a man who is under constant criticism for not moving with the times. I believe Eguchi said that his cut from Revival of 'F' was entirely redrawn by Yamamuro. As such, we're left with a nice beam effect, but a totally lifeless and uniform model:
It's a shame. I guess with Super, I think the main benefit would be that animators wouldn't be stuck trying to draw Yamamuro's models. Badly done Yamamuro is a whole lot uglier to me than Uchiyama's corrections were. I think it's the wide faces and rounded noses that get me. They're just so far removed from Toriyama's art style that it distracts me.

Anyway, onto another topic. Old vs. New! How you do feel the returning animators' work stands up to their efforts in the previous shows? I find myself constantly blown away by how much Shimanuki's work on One Piece seems to have affected his ability to draw Dragon Ball these days. His Goku has major Luffy-face.
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Re: Animation Comparisons - (Eps 1 - 20) [Update 1]

Post by Chuquita » Tue Nov 24, 2015 5:02 pm

I'm surprised at how Shimanuki's Vegeta remained unaffected where his Gokû and Kuririn where impacted by his drawing One Piece so much. Is it because there isn't much Vegeta's design shares stylistically with the characters on One Piece, I wonder.
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Re: Animation Comparisons - (Eps 1 - 20) [Update 1]

Post by JulieYBM » Tue Nov 24, 2015 5:05 pm

I don't really like the chief animation supervisor role myself. The best use of it I have seen is with Naruto Shippuuden, where chief animation supervisors are only ever used for episodes with a lot of bad animators. Otherwise, the important episodes are allowed total freedom by their animation supervisor and key animators, like those led by Yamashita Hiroyuki, Kouda Masayuki, Sessha Gorou, Character Designer Suzuki Hirofumi and Wakabayashi Atsushi. Toei cartoons as of late have mainly used the role to help keep animation supervisors together, but when your series tend to use only one animation supervisor on a quick schedule or numerous weak animators it tends to stand to reason that you need extra help to clean up unsightly drawings.

I think it'd be interesting to consider Toriko Episode #99 and One Piece Episode #590 in these comparisons, too, given much the same staff now works on Dragon Ball Super.
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Re: Animation Comparisons - (Eps 1 - 20) [Update 1]

Post by gogeta1231 » Tue Nov 24, 2015 5:26 pm

Thanks for the great work, Ajay! :D
I love Tate and Yamamuro's styles the best, hopefully they get to do more episodes.

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Re: Animation Comparisons - (Eps 1 - 20) [Update 1]

Post by DragonBalllKaiHD » Tue Nov 24, 2015 6:00 pm

Personally, I think Shimanuki is slowly evolving to his Dragon Ball form as time goes on. His #20 is totally different from his #9.

Speaking of evolving, have you noticed that the initial run by Super has episodes looking strongly resemble Yamamuro's designs? It may be because these supervisors wanted to give a good first impression either to Yamamuro or the fan of the franchise. But then Kitano, Yashima, Ishikawa, and Tate all eventually have moved on to their own designs. If you can pull up some comparison between their first episodes and their recent episodes, that'd be in for an interesting insights.

Also, the scheduling has improved a bit lately, so that may also have contributed to their more comfort zone to make their episode stand out a little bit more.
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Re: Animation Comparisons - (Eps 1 - 20) [Update 1]

Post by JulieYBM » Tue Nov 24, 2015 6:09 pm

Shimanuki only oversaw Episode #8b. His next episode was Episode #12, where he needed a handful of assistant animation supervisors to make broadcast. He then did key animation for Episode #17 and oversaw Episode #20. I'd say this is a bigger sign that the schedule hasn't really picked up, especially given the high number of key animators used in every episode. Then again, in general, I'm hesitant to say anything good about Super because it's hard to say if episode look shoddy from having bad key animators, less time, or a bad designs.

It'll be interesting to see where we go in the next half dozen episodes. I can't imagine things will pick up at all without a sudden infusion of staff and money, though.
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Re: Animation Comparisons - (Eps 1 - 20) [Update 1]

Post by Sodhi » Tue Nov 24, 2015 7:12 pm

JulieYBM wrote: It'll be interesting to see where we go in the next half dozen episodes. I can't imagine things will pick up at all without a sudden infusion of staff and money, though.
I am really hoping that a lot of good staff is in store for us for uni. 6 arc

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Re: Animation Comparisons - (Eps 1 - 20) [Update 1]

Post by JulieYBM » Tue Nov 24, 2015 7:18 pm

Oonishi Ryou recently did key animation for Episode #14 and Opening #1 Version #2. Oonishi hasn't done much for other series lately, so I've wondered if he might join the rotation of animation supervisors. That would certainly be a big help given his sense of timing. I think even if Oonishi only corrected he could vastly improve the timing of scenes for an movement-heavy episode.
Sodhi wrote:
JulieYBM wrote: It'll be interesting to see where we go in the next half dozen episodes. I can't imagine things will pick up at all without a sudden infusion of staff and money, though.
I am really hoping that a lot of good staff is in store for us for uni. 6 arc
At the very least I want one episode directed and storyboard by Chioka Kimitoshi.
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