I don't understand the Dragon Ball fandom when it comes to Super

[Totamo]

before super cane out people complained about so many things. goku was just a plot device in z and had no character like he did in ball. the humans don't do anything. goku always wins. majinbuu sucks, gotenks is annoying. vegito was an asspull . the cell saga should have focused on trunks more.

super happens. Goku does normal stuff, people say he sucks now. the humans are going be in the tournament, it should be goten trunks and namekians. goku rarely wins, people call him a loser. buu doesn't fight in the u6 tournament, people say it's a bad writing. fusion is basically thrown out, people get pissed.

that's not even counting the character complaints, there are moments they are exaggerated but people make it seem like they acts like this all the time. goku has shown all the sides that make him goku, but people only want him to be serious all the time. vegeta is actually a good person and puts his pride aside to protect earth, the same pride that destroyed earth in the buu saga. people say he is not badass anymore because he is not an arrogant twat. then there are gohan fans who can't accept that he doesn't nor ever did want to be like his father. That was his introduction line.

"But he can do both" No he can'tbecause he would have train for extensive messures of time to maintain the power he had in z.

then they are people with a bad memory who think GT did characters better despite one of the most common cons brought up is how goku is a kid, pan is annoying, trunks is a wimp and z fighters literally made a novice mistake with super 17 which resulted in their defeat aND thats not even talking about the fact that they were all weaker.

I felt like I was enjoying the show better when I wasn't hearing all these conflicting complaints.

[Yedis]

Differing opinions by different people. They won't please everyone no matter what they do.

[Bansho64]

People are always gonna have different opinions. Whether it's a majority of people having the same thoughts or a minority, there's always gonna be different opinions from different people. That's just the way it is. I'm not gonna say that all the opinions are smart and well thought out, but I'm not gonna say that all of them are dumb either. As for understanding these different opinions, don't. Enjoy what you enjoy.

I felt like I was enjoying the show better when I wasn't hearing all these conflicting complaints.

Then, I suggest you don't read them? That's all I can come up with.

then they are people with a bad memory who think GT did characters better

So, they have bad memory because they don't have the same thoughts about the characters that you do?

[Ki Breaker]

then there are gohan fans who can't accept that he doesn't nor ever did want to be like his father. That was his introduction line.

No gohan fan wants gohan to be goku, they aren't fans because they want him to be someone else..
That would be like saying i am a monaka fan because he could turn out like gohan one day. No I am a gohan fan, in and out..

Gohan needs to fight because this is a world where that's a necessity, to continue living. Not everyone else is gifted with power, when you are, there is a sense of duty to do your part.
Wanting him to fight is not wanting him to be goku, its wanting him as the good-natured dutiful character he is

[Totamo]

then there are gohan fans who can't accept that he doesn't nor ever did want to be like his father. That was his introduction line.

No gohan fan wants gohan to be goku, they aren't fans because they want him to be someone else..
That would be like saying i am a monaka fan because he could turn out like gohan one day. No I am a gohan fan, in and out..

Gohan needs to fight because this is a world where that's a necessity, to continue living. Not everyone else is gifted with power, when you are, there is a sense of duty to do your part.
Wanting him to fight is not wanting him to be goku, its wanting him as the good-natured dutiful character he is

gohan never wanted to be that. he was forced by piccolo and goku, which is actually the biggest critism against goku as a father.

[Totamo]

People are always gonna have different opinions. Whether it's a majority of people having the same thoughts or a minority, there's always gonna be different opinions from different people. That's just the way it is. I'm not gonna say that all the opinions are smart and well thought out, but I'm not gonna say that all of them are dumb either. As for understanding these different opinions, there are different things you can do I guess. Try and see their POV, whee they're coming from, specific things they don't like, etc.

I felt like I was enjoying the show better when I wasn't hearing all these conflicting complaints.

Then, I suggest you don't read them? That's all I can come up with.

then they are people with a bad memory who think GT did characters better

So, they have bad memory because they don't have the same thoughts about the characters that you do?

of course not, those were complaints about gt in super

[BlazingFiddlesticks]

My guess would be that it is a combination of an enormous swath of people with different experiences and understandings of the series coming together into one space in tandem with many of those people comparing the newer material processed with their current critical eye to the original material that has simmered in their minds in a generally positive way for many years now. Thus people can have different opinions ("Do I want the Universe 7 team to bring to the strongest people they have because that is the logical thing to do, or do I welcome the Earthling characters because I've wanted to see them in action forever and Goku and Vegeta will clean house in the end regardless?), or disconnect what they like about the original material from how Super takes the baton ("I remember Vegeta best as the angry lone-wolf who did whatever he wanted! New Vegeta isn't that so he sucks!"). Sometimes they contradict other ("I want Vegeta to be awesome lone-wolf Saiyan and grow and develop at the same time!") and even get genuine complaints lost in the mix ("I want Vegeta to grow and develop, but not in the goofy, deprecating way Super often goes about it!")

I think some people can only let Super wear one hat at a time, either as "Dragon Ball", in which the Z-era's stylings are held as the benchmark, or as "New Dragon Ball" in which the fact that it will likely never top the original story gives full rights to skewer it. Not both at once, like they should. It is why many Super discussions promptly fizzle out when someone tries to contextualize something in Super with a comparison to the original story; some people cannot detach themselves enough from the older material evaluate the two in the same way, particularly when the parallel reflects badly on Z.

Star Wars fans seem to be finding themselves in similar predicament with the new movies: "Is Rey too prodigious?" "Is The Force Awakens really any good?" "Are Darth Vader's Rogue One lines in-character?" (And you thought Dragon Ball fans were fussy over nothing! )

[Ki Breaker]

then there are gohan fans who can't accept that he doesn't nor ever did want to be like his father. That was his introduction line.

No gohan fan wants gohan to be goku, they aren't fans because they want him to be someone else..
That would be like saying i am a monaka fan because he could turn out like gohan one day. No I am a gohan fan, in and out..

Gohan needs to fight because this is a world where that's a necessity, to continue living. Not everyone else is gifted with power, when you are, there is a sense of duty to do your part.
Wanting him to fight is not wanting him to be goku, its wanting him as the good-natured dutiful character he is

gohan never wanted to be that. he was forced by piccolo and goku, which is actually the biggest critism against goku as a father.

Never wanted to be what?
A dutiful character? He is, when it was needed he trained his ass off, without any breaks..

[VegettoEX]

My best advice is: unless you're in charge of moderating a community or perhaps being paid to write an analysis of response to a product... ignore everyone, go it alone, and enjoy what you enjoy.

People try to categorize and pigeon-hole "fandom" into a neat little package all the time, but there's no way to do that. Different people write different things in different places at different points along their fandom journey. We all learn and grow. What we think now could change tomorrow, next month, next year, or never. The new wave of people coming in next month could think something entirely different from the previous wave. The previous wave could have given up on trying to explain why they like things. The previous wave could be so steadfast in their opinions that they will battle until their air runs out.

Be yourself. Don't try to understand us all!

[namekiansaiyan]

I want Vegeta and Piccolo to go back to the personalities they had at the start of the Android/Cell. The only other complaint I have is Toriyama not giving the other characters time to fight. However, Toriyama seems to be sorting out my second complaint.

[ChronoTwigger]

Well, when I started enjoying DB and all the anime thing, internet was a dream to come.
We watched those incredible images and maybe talked about with relatives, school pals and a limited number of well known people.
Sharing what we care for it's a strong instinct. We search approval and we want to give people the same joy we feel.
Then... the www era.
Maximum share potential, but also an overwhelming ocean of people that talk just 'cause there's a comment area to fill. That's not "share", it's "stating". And there's no debate. The web WANT you to state and take action, not just listen or talk. even if you're a 6 years old kid with no real rational arguments.

One of the best moments of my life was me and 2 childhood friends, now one's gone, meeting to watch Saint Seiya on the couch each odd day. No web. No "opinions". And our fantasy flied to greater scenarios, impersonations, and above everything else, NO FANDOM to argue with. Only happiness.

So, if you want to enjoy something (anime and everything in your life) find pleasure in the solitude of your passion.
Beata solitudo, sola beatitudo (blessed solitude, only happiness)

[Lord Beerus]

You can please some of the people some of the time but you can't please all of the people all of the time. For a lot of Dragon Ball fans, they grew up watching the show in a certain manner, and as such have different expectations for what they think Dragon Ball (Z) should be in 2016/17. It's a case of expectation meeting reality when they see Dragon Ball in it's purest form and are somewhat taken back by what they are witnessing. Not to say that Dragon Ball Super is the best form of experiencing Dragon Ball, but it's more of throwback to Dragon Ball silliness in more of an abundance. Something that a lot of Dragon Ball fans were not really exposed to greatly when following the franchise.

[precita]

As anyone who watched DBZ knows, Goku barely does anything in that series. The only major Goku focus is during the Freeza fight on Namek, and maybe the tail-end of the Buu saga.

Goku was a nobody in DBZ. He barely got any screentime.

[Lord Beerus]

As anyone who watched DBZ knows, Goku barely does anything in that series. The only major Goku focus is during the Freeza fight on Namek, and maybe the tail-end of the Buu saga.

Goku was a nobody in DBZ. He barely got any screentime.

Um... what? The only character who got more screen time in DBZ than Goku was Gohan. It only when Cell debuted that his screen-time from that point on became more reduced and even then he's still integral to the plot.

[precita]

As anyone who watched DBZ knows, Goku barely does anything in that series. The only major Goku focus is during the Freeza fight on Namek, and maybe the tail-end of the Buu saga.

Goku was a nobody in DBZ. He barely got any screentime.

Um... what? The only character who got more screen time in DBZ than Goku was Gohan. It only when Cell debuted that his screen-time from that point on became more reduced and even then he's still integral to the plot.

After Radditz, Goku barely got any focus in the Saiyan arc besides a few of his Snake Way adventures and King Kai training. He only fought Vegeta for about 3 episodes before he was out of commision.

He's gone the entire first half of the Namek arc besides when we see him training on his ship. He fights Ginyu briefly and is out of commission again until the end of Freeza's forms. He then gets screentime there, is gone for Garlic Jr. and when Cyborg Freeza comes to Earth.

He stops fighting 19 early on when he gets his heart virus and is gone the majority of the Cell arc. Then he fights Cell for 3-4 episodes and is again done for the saga.

In the Buu arc he gets some focus early on, then it shifts entirely to Gohan, then Vegeta, then Trunks/Goten and Gotenks, then Gohan again, then Vegito (which I don't count for Goku), and then finally Goku for the Kid Buu stuff.

So what screentime did Goku get in DBZ? In Super he's been the star constantly and even most of the filler episodes are about him.

[Esfír Dedragón]

I view it as more of a realization that THIS is the best that Toei (and Toriyama) can come up with after the last series ended. I had high expectations for arc ideas, even if I didn't necessarily liked every detail, only as long as it is executed properly.

Given the sometimes-cheap animation, the ever-increasing plotholes from weak story-writing (even for Dragon Ball standards) and brutal in-your-face retcons, is it any wonder why Super and related material instills in some of us disappointment and rage that can't just easily be ignored or "easily explained away", despite Toei's attempts?

I know I can barely ignore it.

I just care too much about Dragon Ball to see it be infected with major problems that can be easily fixed.

[Lord Beerus]

As anyone who watched DBZ knows, Goku barely does anything in that series. The only major Goku focus is during the Freeza fight on Namek, and maybe the tail-end of the Buu saga.

Goku was a nobody in DBZ. He barely got any screentime.

Um... what? The only character who got more screen time in DBZ than Goku was Gohan. It only when Cell debuted that his screen-time from that point on became more reduced and even then he's still integral to the plot.

After Radditz, Goku barely got any focus in the Saiyan arc besides a few of his Snake Way adventures and King Kai training. He only fought Vegeta for about 3 episodes before he was out of commision.

He's gone the entire first half of the Namek arc besides when we see him training on his ship. He fights Ginyu briefly and is out of commission again until the end of Freeza's forms. He then gets screentime there, is gone for Garlic Jr. and when Cyborg Freeza comes to Earth.

He stops fighting 19 early on when he gets his heart virus and is gone the majority of the Cell arc. Then he fights Cell for 3-4 episodes and is again done for the saga.

In the Buu arc he gets some focus early on, then it shifts entirely to Gohan, then Vegeta, then Trunks/Goten and Gotenks, then Gohan again, then Vegito (which I don't count for Goku), and then finally Goku for the Kid Buu stuff.

So what screentime did Goku get in DBZ? In Super he's been the star constantly and even most of the filler episodes are about him.

You know he also fought Nappa in the Saiyan arc, right? As well has still having a central role in the Saiyan arc by handing Krillin the Genki Dama and communicating with Gohan while he was an Oozaru. Keep in mind, Goku was crippled at this stage but that mean his character wasn't a focal point.

I will admit, Goku does sit out a good portion of the Namek arc, but once he takes part in it, he's all over the place. He battles Jeice, Recoome, Burter and Ginyu (twice) in several episodes. Then gets put out of commission for a several episodes before coming back to battle Freeza in the longest fight in all of Dragon Ball. His battle with Freeza takes up nearly a 1/4 of the whole Namek/Freeza arc. Yes, the fight is that long.

Then when the Androids roll around, he talks and spars with Future Trunks, fights 19, arrives the save Piccolo and Tien from Cell, trains for quite a while with Gohan in the ROSAT, fights Cell for several episodes and even in death plays major part in helping Gohan defeat Cell.

The Majin Boo arc is truly the only arc I confidently say that Goku takes a back seat and Gohan is legitimately treated as the main character, instead of being part of an ensemble cast like before. But once he returns at the WMAT, which is not even 1/5 of the arc's length, he has strong presence in the arc whether it's battling Babidi's minions, fighting Majin Boo himself, teaching Goten and Trunks about the Fusion Dance, watching over Gohan and Gotenks fights Super Boo or training with Gohan on the Sacred World of the Kai. And once Gotenks is absorbed he's virtually becomes the main character again.

And of course that's not even taking into consideration the filler episodes. Which include episodes that have centred around such scenarios as Goku learning about his Saiyan heritage from King Kai, his exploits with Princess Snake, falling into Hell and running into Goz and Mez, searching for the Dragon Balls in the 10 day period before the start of the Cell Games, Gohan's birthday and his battles in the Other World Tournament arc.

Trust me, Goku was all over the place in Z. The only character who was more prevalent in Z was Gohan.

[sintzu]

It reminds me of the DC fans, they complained about Nolan's Batman movies and were against him being involved with the new movies but now that we've seen what happens when he's not involved everyone wants him and his movies back.

I'm one of the fans who didn't care about Goten, Trunks and Gotenks in Z (I didn't hate them like some do) but I appreciate them now after seeing how bad they are written in Super.

I think the reason this happens is because people don't know how good something is until they get something worse so they look back at what they didn't like and find out it wasn't as bad as they thought.

[kinisking]

then there are gohan fans who can't accept that he doesn't nor ever did want to be like his father. That was his introduction line.

No gohan fan wants gohan to be goku, they aren't fans because they want him to be someone else..
That would be like saying i am a monaka fan because he could turn out like gohan one day. No I am a gohan fan, in and out..

Gohan needs to fight because this is a world where that's a necessity, to continue living. Not everyone else is gifted with power, when you are, there is a sense of duty to do your part.
Wanting him to fight is not wanting him to be goku, its wanting him as the good-natured dutiful character he is

gohan never wanted to be that. he was forced by piccolo and goku, which is actually the biggest critism against goku as a father.

The situation is a lot more complicated than you're trying to say. There is 3 ways they could've taken Gohan's character.

1: He fights like he always did in Z. Gohan doesn't like to fight but he DOES like to protect. As long as there are people to protect, Gohan would and should fight. The story can easily be written to put him into fighting, and Z proves that. He can also be a scholar. It's not like being one makes the other impossible.
2 Gohan is a pure scholar. However he can use this to benefit the Z-fighters just like Bulma does.
3. The way they took. To literally take him out of the fucking show. Yet, Gohan fans are supposed to be happy because they made one aspect of his character his only aspect WHILE also using it as a way to write him out. The fuck?

[Totamo]

No gohan fan wants gohan to be goku, they aren't fans because they want him to be someone else..
That would be like saying i am a monaka fan because he could turn out like gohan one day. No I am a gohan fan, in and out..

Gohan needs to fight because this is a world where that's a necessity, to continue living. Not everyone else is gifted with power, when you are, there is a sense of duty to do your part.
Wanting him to fight is not wanting him to be goku, its wanting him as the good-natured dutiful character he is

gohan never wanted to be that. he was forced by piccolo and goku, which is actually the biggest critism against goku as a father.

The situation is a lot more complicated than you're trying to say. There is 3 ways they could've taken Gohan's character.

1: He fights like he always did in Z. Gohan doesn't like to fight but he DOES like to protect. As long as there are people to protect, Gohan would and should fight. The story can easily be written to put him into fighting, and Z proves that. He can also be a scholar. It's not like being one makes the other impossible.
2 Gohan is a pure scholar. However he can use this to benefit the Z-fighters just like Bulma does.
3. The way they took. To literally take him out of the fucking show. Yet, Gohan fans are supposed to be happy because they made one aspect of his character his only aspect WHILE also using it as a way to write him out. The fuck?

he can't be both not unless he is forced like he was in z. that's my biggest problem with gohan fans. they refuse to accept the fact that gohan never wanted to do any of that and he was forced to.

don't forget that a lot of gohan's ability to actually be in the show came from unique circumstances. it was never training he did alone like the others because he never had a passion.

gohan can't be like bulma because bulma can do everything or do you want him to be like the other z humans show up to get dropped because he doesn't train oh wait they did that and people were pissed.