Should Goku stop being irresponsible jerk?

[Lord Beerus]

Another brief point I'd like to add:

I think Goku at this point is fully aware of how destructive his actions, directly and indirectly, can be on the lives of many people. I mean, that was the determining factor to him staying dead after the Cell arc. Because he believed that just his mere presence invited more trouble to his family, friends and the planet, and thought that being dead would mean that everybody could live a more peaceful life. Ironically, the one day he comes back to life, he significantly contributes to billions of people dying. So he kinda had a point. He should have just stayed dead.

[omaro34]

Goku fucking pisses me off:

1)He is extremely neglectful of his family, and often will fly off to train without a single thought of his responsibilities as a father, He's incredibly selfish.

2)He takes his guard down in battle one example being when allowed himself to be incapacitated by the weakest Freeza soldier.

3) He indirectly caused Zamasu to go on that mortal purge, all because he wanted to fight Zamasu to test his strength.

4) He hired Hit on himself nearly getting himself killed in the process, making his family and friends worry about his safety, again HE IS AMAZINGLY SELFISH.

5) He told Vegeta this past episode "You're not the one giving birth, so why should it matter"? It shows Vegeta has become a better family man and at least has his priorities straight.

6) He completely IGNORED Beerus' warning. If you counter this by saying Beerus is the dangerous one because he almost wiped out a planet because of a pudding cup, I''ll counter that by gladly pointing out that Whis also warned him too about the dangers of Zeno.

I don't care what anyone says to try to defend this naive, gullible, selfish protagonist of ours, he is partly responsible for this tournament occuring, and if universes explode, blood will be on his hands too.

If I was a Z fighter, I don't care how strong he is, I'd slap him upside his damn head.

Don't get me wrong, I don't HATE Goku, its just that he really causes more harm than he realizes.

If they haven't slapped Vegeta for any of his dick actions, they're not going to start now Goku. While they at it, they can slap themselves for not stopping the androids which led to hundreds of deaths in South City.

Blaming him Zamasu, why don't you also blame Trunks for breaking the time taboo that helped create Black? Or how about Vegeta who took too long to kill Freeza that directly led to the Earth being destroyed.

I'm giving Vegeta a pass because we are seeing character development before our very eyes. The Vegeta of the Cell arc would have never declined to go training so that he can tend to his wife who is going to give birth. We are seeing a change in Vegeta, and that's a lot for me to take in considering I'm not the biggest Vegeta fan on here.

Goku, on the other hand, hasn't really changed all that much from a character standpoint. He's still incredibly selfish, and I thought as he got older he would tone down a bit when it comes to him being childish but we haven't seen that.

As for Zamasu, I'm not entirely blaming Goku at all. All I'm saying is that if Goku didn't resist his same old stupid urge to fight every new guy he meets and thinks is strong, Zamasu wouldn't have likely done what he did.

[ekrolo2]

Another brief point I'd like to add:

I think Goku at this point is fully aware of how destructive his actions, directly and indirectly, can be on the lives of many people. I mean, that was the determining factor to him staying dead after the Cell arc. Because he believed that just his mere presence invited more trouble to his family, friends and the planet, and thought that being dead would mean that everybody could live a more peaceful life. Ironically, the one day he comes back to life, he significantly contributes to billions of people dying. So he kinda had a point. He should have just stayed dead.

That scene makes a lot of his post Cell arc fuck ups really indefensible for me, he knows why and how he causes trouble but makes no real effort to avoid it. And no, waiting until things are 99.99999% screwed to take something seriously doesn't count.

[omaro34]

Another brief point I'd like to add:

I think Goku at this point is fully aware of how destructive his actions, directly and indirectly, can be on the lives of many people. I mean, that was the determining factor to him staying dead after the Cell arc. Because he believed that just his mere presence invited more trouble to his family, friends and the planet, and thought that being dead would mean that everybody could live a more peaceful life. Ironically, the one day he comes back to life, he significantly contributes to billions of people dying. So he kinda had a point. He should have just stayed dead.

That scene makes a lot of his post Cell arc fuck ups really indefensible for me, he knows why and how he causes trouble but makes no real effort to avoid it. And no, waiting until things are 99.99999% screwed to take something seriously doesn't count.

You're right. He should have stayed dead, and the Cell arc was supposed to be the passing of the torch down to his son Gohan, but the fans had other things in mind.

[ekrolo2]

You're right. He should have stayed dead, and the Cell arc was supposed to be the passing of the torch down to his son Gohan, but the fans had other things in mind.

Fuck bland ass Gohan, that ending is perfect for him because its the closest admission to him being a scumbag you're gonna get directly out of Goku's own mouth. That's the only reason I like that last bit of the Android arc.

[HeroR]

I'm giving Vegeta a pass because we are seeing character development before our very eyes. The Vegeta of the Cell arc would have never declined to go training so that he can tend to his wife who is going to give birth. We are seeing a change in Vegeta, and that's a lot for me to take in considering I'm not the biggest Vegeta fan on here.

Goku, on the other hand, hasn't really changed all that much from a character standpoint. He's still incredibly selfish, and I thought as he got older he would tone down a bit when it comes to him being childish but we haven't seen that.

As for Zamasu, I'm not entirely blaming Goku at all. All I'm saying is that if Goku didn't resist his same old stupid urge to fight every new guy he meets and thinks is strong, Zamasu wouldn't have likely done what he did.

You really can't give Vegeta a pass for Freeza because he's the direct reason why the Earth got blown. That's after he saw Freeza exposed Goku's weakness and lectured him about it.

And you saw EOZ. What made you think he would developed to be less selfish?

He also fought Zamasu to see if he was Black. Something even Beerus evenly approved of.

[HeroR]

You're right. He should have stayed dead, and the Cell arc was supposed to be the passing of the torch down to his son Gohan, but the fans had other things in mind.

Toriyama himself decided Gohan wasn't suited for the main role, not the fans. Please don't spread that myth.

[omaro34]

You're right. He should have stayed dead, and the Cell arc was supposed to be the passing of the torch down to his son Gohan, but the fans had other things in mind.

Fuck bland ass Gohan, that ending is perfect for him because its the closest admission to him being a scumbag you're gonna get directly out of Goku's own mouth. That's the only reason I like that last bit of the Android arc.

Lol I don't really care for Gohan either, but yeah it is the closest thing to admission we are going to get. Super's version of Goku is just on another level though.

Perhaps at the end of Super that all could change. Many series end their story when the main character dies for good, and I won't be surprised if Goku bites the dust then. Maybe you'll get another admission then lol.

[omaro34]

You're right. He should have stayed dead, and the Cell arc was supposed to be the passing of the torch down to his son Gohan, but the fans had other things in mind.

Toriyama himself decided Gohan wasn't suited for the main role, not the fans. Please don't spread that myth.

My bad.

[ekrolo2]

Lol I don't really care for Gohan either, but yeah it is the closest thing to admission we are going to get. Super's version of Goku is just on another level though.

Perhaps at the end of Super that all could change. Many series end their story when the main character dies for good, and I won't be surprised if Goku bites the dust then. Maybe you'll get another admission then lol.

Nah, the 10-year-gap ensures no one's gonna die who's part of the maincast. There's a much bigger chance for everybody else to buy the farm than the Earth people, especially Goku. Honestly, this is pretty much the most scumbagish thing you can have Goku do short of making him an actual villain, he really can't out do himself after this so Super might as well not try to top it and end with this last arc.

[Gog]

Lol I don't really care for Gohan either, but yeah it is the closest thing to admission we are going to get. Super's version of Goku is just on another level though.

Perhaps at the end of Super that all could change. Many series end their story when the main character dies for good, and I won't be surprised if Goku bites the dust then. Maybe you'll get another admission then lol.

Nah, the 10-year-gap ensures no one's gonna die who's part of the maincast. There's a much bigger chance for everybody else to buy the farm than the Earth people, especially Goku. Honestly, this is pretty much the most scumbagish thing you can have Goku do short of making him an actual villain, he really can't out do himself after this so Super might as well not try to top it and end with this last arc.

Perhaps? Super won't make him do anymore scumbagish acts? Nah but they probably won't be on the scale scale as this arc has done. Oh who am I kidding he's probably going to get Pan killed in the next arc

[namekiansaiyan]

Goku has always been an arsehole and will continue being one and that is why he is unique.

You're right. He should have stayed dead, and the Cell arc was supposed to be the passing of the torch down to his son Gohan, but the fans had other things in mind.

Toriyama himself decided Gohan wasn't suited for the main role, not the fans. Please don't spread that myth.

Bringing back Goku is one of Toriyama's best decisions. The show is about fighting and Gohan does not like fighting so it would be as exciting.

[Totamo]

Goku told Gohan to kill Cell and he killed Buu and Yakon. He also killed Freeza and Cold in Trunks' timeline so he clearly knew after Freeza tried to kill him that there are those who simply can't be redeemed like Piccolo and Vegeta.

It does seem like he forgot about that in Super cause he let Freeza go and that blew up in his face, litirally. He also didn't learn from that cause he didn't kill Black when had the chance.

I think the reason there isn't any major character development like the original is because the writers want the characters to have a set status quo throughout the entire story.

I have to disagree, with that. Goku was responsible for both buu and cell arcs happening and forcing his sons to clean up after him. I don't really call that intelligence or maturity especially when he leaves the earth in gohan's hands who was no where near ready to do something like that, which was also irresponsible as gohan didn't do that on his own, if goku didn't help him, gohan would have lost.

Its very hard for me to agree with people who will defend goku's actions in cell and buu, but criticize his actions in super. Especially when its his own fault those 2 arcs even happened and the deaths in those arcs are on his head.

The whole point of Cell was to show Goku was needed as trunks timeline was awful without him but that goku brings problems.

[omaro34]

I'm giving Vegeta a pass because we are seeing character development before our very eyes. The Vegeta of the Cell arc would have never declined to go training so that he can tend to his wife who is going to give birth. We are seeing a change in Vegeta, and that's a lot for me to take in considering I'm not the biggest Vegeta fan on here.

Goku, on the other hand, hasn't really changed all that much from a character standpoint. He's still incredibly selfish, and I thought as he got older he would tone down a bit when it comes to him being childish but we haven't seen that.

As for Zamasu, I'm not entirely blaming Goku at all. All I'm saying is that if Goku didn't resist his same old stupid urge to fight every new guy he meets and thinks is strong, Zamasu wouldn't have likely done what he did.

You really can't give Vegeta a pass for Freeza because he's the direct reason why the Earth got blown. That's after he saw Freeza exposed Goku's weakness and lectured him about it.

And you saw EOZ. What made you think he would developed to be less selfish?

He also fought Zamasu to see if he was Black. Something even Beerus evenly approved of.

I'm not talking about their combat decisions when it comes to Vegeta, because you're right, he is to blame for Freeza. I'm just saying his character isn't the same as it was when he was first introduced. Vegeta used to mock Goku saying "you aren't a real Saiyan" or something along those lines. Now it seems the tables have turned with Goku remarking last episode that he shouldn't blame him when he becomes a lot stronger than Vegeta. Goku couldn't understand why Vegeta couldn't come, and after living on Earth his whole life, he should understand by now that family is important.

Goku's character hasn't progressed at all, and his actions in the last 10 episodes highlight that.

As for Zamasu, you got me there, I forgot it was because they wanted to see if Zamasu was Black. But all of those other points I mentioned I think are valid.

Hiring a hitman on yourself and nearly getting yourself killed while your family/friends are worried about you all because you want a good fight is the definition of a guy who just doesn't care about how his loved ones feel.

[HeroR]

I'm not talking about their combat decisions when it comes to Vegeta, because you're right, he is to blame for Freeza. I'm just saying his character isn't the same as it was when he was first introduced. Vegeta used to mock Goku saying "you aren't a real Saiyan" or something along those lines. Now it seems the tables have turned with Goku remarking last episode that he shouldn't blame him when he becomes a lot stronger than Vegeta. Goku couldn't understand why Vegeta couldn't come, and after living on Earth his whole life, he should understand by now that family is important.

Goku's character hasn't progressed at all, and his actions highlight that.

As for Zamasu, you got me there, I forgot it was because they wanted to see if Zamasu was Black. But all of those other points I mentioned I think are valid.

Hiring a hitman and nearly getting yourself killed while your family/friends are worried about you all because you want a good fight is the definition of a guy who just doesn't care about how his loved ones feel.

Goku does understand that family is important. He just didn't understand why Vegeta would chose to stick around since he wasn't the one giving birth. Even then, Vegeta mostly didn't want to go because Bulma would get made.

He changed little, not at all.

I think your other points are fine, if not a bit one-sided

[omaro34]

I'm not talking about their combat decisions when it comes to Vegeta, because you're right, he is to blame for Freeza. I'm just saying his character isn't the same as it was when he was first introduced. Vegeta used to mock Goku saying "you aren't a real Saiyan" or something along those lines. Now it seems the tables have turned with Goku remarking last episode that he shouldn't blame him when he becomes a lot stronger than Vegeta. Goku couldn't understand why Vegeta couldn't come, and after living on Earth his whole life, he should understand by now that family is important.

Goku's character hasn't progressed at all, and his actions highlight that.

As for Zamasu, you got me there, I forgot it was because they wanted to see if Zamasu was Black. But all of those other points I mentioned I think are valid.

Hiring a hitman and nearly getting yourself killed while your family/friends are worried about you all because you want a good fight is the definition of a guy who just doesn't care about how his loved ones feel.

Goku does understand that family is important. He just didn't understand why Vegeta would chose to stick around since he wasn't the one giving birth. Even then, Vegeta mostly didn't want to go because Bulma would get made.

He changed little, not at all.

I think your other points are fine, if not a bit one-sided

Perhaps I was a bit too harsh on Goku which is why it came across as one sided. I don't hate Goku at all. As a matter of fact, I LOVED Kid Goku back in Dragonall, but I think its because the original Bruce Falcouner type DBZ which I grew up on depicted Goku as a hero. Quotes like:

"I am the Hope of the Universe. I am the answer to all living things that cry out in peace".

English Dub old school Z depicted Goku as a hero. And me, having never watched anything outside this version of Z, and never read the manga, and then all of a sudden watching Super left me scratching my head at Goku's character, which is why I might come across as a bit one sided.

But I don't think Toriyama intended to depict Goku as a hero, and as a result, Z's version of Goku is what I had in my mind when I first started watching Super. (I also never watched the series in Japanese until July 2015 when Super came out, and it grew on me).

Anyway correct me if I'm wrong here. Did the Japanese and the manga depict Goku the same way?

[HeroR]

Perhaps I was a bit too harsh on Goku which is why it came across as one sided. I don't hate Goku at all. As a matter of fact, I LOVED Kid Goku back in Dragonall, but I think its because the original Bruce Falcouner type DBZ which I grew up on depicted Goku as a hero. Quotes like:

"I am the Hope of the Universe. I am the answer to all living things that cry out in peace".

English Dub old school Z depicted Goku as a hero. And me, having never watched anything outside this version of Z, and never read the manga, and then all of a sudden watching Super left me scratching my head at Goku's character, which is why I might come across as a bit one sided.

But I don't think Toriyama intended to depict Goku as a hero, and as a result, Z's version of Goku is what I had in my mind when I first started watching Super. (I also never watched the series in Japanese until July 2015 when Super came out, and it grew on me).

Anyway correct me if I'm wrong here. Did the Japanese and the manga depict Goku the same way?

Yes. The Z anime actually made Goku more heroic too. It wasn't just the dub.

As for Goku being a hero, he is one but not like Superman. He's more like Thor or the Greek heroes, who were also extremely petty selfish to the point that they would be called anti-heroes by our standards.

[Lord Beerus]

Perhaps I was a bit too harsh on Goku which is why it came across as one sided. I don't hate Goku at all. As a matter of fact, I LOVED Kid Goku back in Dragonall, but I think its because the original Bruce Falcouner type DBZ which I grew up on depicted Goku as a hero. Quotes like:

"I am the Hope of the Universe. I am the answer to all living things that cry out in peace".

English Dub old school Z depicted Goku as a hero. And me, having never watched anything outside this version of Z, and never read the manga, and then all of a sudden watching Super left me scratching my head at Goku's character, which is why I might come across as a bit one sided.

But I don't think Toriyama intended to depict Goku as a hero, and as a result, Z's version of Goku is what I had in my mind when I first started watching Super. (I also never watched the series in Japanese until July 2015 when Super came out, and it grew on me).

Anyway correct me if I'm wrong here. Did the Japanese and the manga depict Goku the same way?

Yes. The Z anime actually made Goku more heroic too. It wasn't just the dub.

As for Goku being a hero, he is one but not like Superman. He's more like Thor or the Greek heroes, who were also extremely petty selfish to the point that they would be called anti-heroes by our standards.

Exactly. I've always seen Goku as more of a classical hero, much like Hercules. He is more than willing to protect his friends and family and save the day, but the fashion of which he will go about it is very morally ambiguous and questionable.

[TheMathemagician]

Perhaps I was a bit too harsh on Goku which is why it came across as one sided. I don't hate Goku at all. As a matter of fact, I LOVED Kid Goku back in Dragonall, but I think its because the original Bruce Falcouner type DBZ which I grew up on depicted Goku as a hero. Quotes like:

"I am the Hope of the Universe. I am the answer to all living things that cry out in peace".

English Dub old school Z depicted Goku as a hero. And me, having never watched anything outside this version of Z, and never read the manga, and then all of a sudden watching Super left me scratching my head at Goku's character, which is why I might come across as a bit one sided.

But I don't think Toriyama intended to depict Goku as a hero, and as a result, Z's version of Goku is what I had in my mind when I first started watching Super. (I also never watched the series in Japanese until July 2015 when Super came out, and it grew on me).

Anyway correct me if I'm wrong here. Did the Japanese and the manga depict Goku the same way?

Yes. The Z anime actually made Goku more heroic too. It wasn't just the dub.

As for Goku being a hero, he is one but not like Superman. He's more like Thor or the Greek heroes, who were also extremely petty selfish to the point that they would be called anti-heroes by our standards.

Exactly. I've always seen Goku as more of a classical hero, much like Hercules. He is more than willing to protect his friends and family and save the day, but the fashion of which he will go about it is very morally ambiguous and questionable.

It's what makes him more unique as a protagonist nowadays for better or for worse.

[HeroR]

It's what makes him more unique as a protagonist nowadays for better or for worse.

Goku isn't that unique among Shonen protagonists. Most Shonen heroes tend to be selfish and only really care about their circle of friends.