Why Goku's stupidity is going too far

[Shuby]

Alright, let’s go through ’em one by one:
– Goku vs Vegeta. First of all, Nappa was the one who killed Goku’s friends, not Vegeta. Secondly, yeah, Goku let him go in part because of how much he admired his strength, but it was also because he wanted to take the higher moral ground and show Vegeta that they were better than him in that respect. It wasn’t just him being some dope looking for another fight down the road.
– Goku vs Frieza. Yeah, Goku was going to let Frieza go… after he’d been sliced in half, had the ever lovin’ crap beaten out of him on a planet that was about the explode in the middle of pitch black space. Not exactly a show of mercy. Oh, and he ended up blowing him to bits anyway. In a world where PLOT ARMOR didn’t happen, that would’ve been the end of that.
– Gohan vs Cell. Fair point here, but in fairness to Goku, he did try to jump in the fight once he realized what a colossal mistake that was.
– Goku vs Kid Buu. Let’s be real here. In spite of whatever Goku said, he was NOT holding back against Kid Buu. Anyone who’s watched that fight could see that Goku was giving it everything he had, it wasn’t enough and Kid Buu ended up kicking his ass. Whether he said that out of misplaced pride or just sheer arrogance, I don’t know, but it ain’t true.
– Goku vs Fat Buu. Again, fair point here, but this is a double whammy of plot convenience and Goku betting that Gotenks would’ve been enough to beat Fat Buu (which, in fairness, it definitely would’ve been if he hadn’t transformed into Super Buu).
Yes, that Goku. No doubt that he made some obviously questionable and outright stupid decisions at times, but not a single one of those is anywhere near the immeasurable levels of stupidity that Super’s Goku treads on. It’s the gap between the heavens and the earth. There’s no comparison.

Not to mention he is probably the most bland and one dimensional character of Shonen hero, Naruto, Yusuke, Gon etc etc

[TheMikado]

So this is like the 5th thread on this, this week.
It is certainly noticeable and I've said this before if you are watching sub versions on Crunchyroll and posting on this forum and probably watched the Japanese streams you're probably on the more hardcore end of the fandom.

That being said, we haven't even gotten to the western audience English dub parts yet where the only way they know Goku is as "Superman". People are being turned off from their favorite characters which is never a good thing for a franchise.

All that being said, we may have crossed into overreaction territory. I can certainly understand the instant reactions the first time you really see how much you feel your character has degraded, be we have probably a dozen threads on it now. I'm not sure what avenues there are for us fans to give feedback, but whatever they are I think we should focus on exploring those avenues rather than continuing to gripe about it on forums. If we want to save our characters and franchise we as fans should probably take action.

[Ki Breaker]

So this is like the 5th thread on this, this week.
It is certainly noticeable and I've said this before if you are watching sub versions on Crunchyroll and posting on this forum and probably watched the Japanese streams you're probably on the more hardcore end of the fandom.

That being said, we haven't even gotten to the western audience English dub parts yet where the only way they know Goku is as "Superman". People are being turned off from their favorite characters which is never a good thing for a franchise.

All that being said, we may have crossed into overreaction territory. I can certainly understand the instant reactions the first time you really see how much you feel your character has degraded, be we have probably a dozen threads on it now. I'm not sure what avenues there are for us fans to give feedback, but whatever they are I think we should focus on exploring those avenues rather than continuing to gripe about it on forums. If we want to save our characters and franchise we as fans should probably take action.

Is it possible to express our distaste on this in any way other than here which actually manages to reach them?
If there is I do not know of it..

[DBZAOTA482]

You've done a far better job explaining things...

Now for those who argue Goku's character in Super is no different check this:

[spoiler][/spoiler]
[spoiler][/spoiler]

Honestly, anyone who says Goku's character in Super is handled well has to be a dirty, lying Super apologist.

[Ki Breaker]

You've done a far better job explaining things...

Now for those who argue Goku's character in Super is no different check this:

[spoiler][/spoiler]
[spoiler][/spoiler]

Honestly, anyone who says Goku's character in Super is handled well has to be a dirty, lying Super apologist.

The fact that these artists are also catching onto this character problem, it's safe to say it's well known and will be tried to address shortly, super tends to do some fanservice

[Boo Machine]

You've done a far better job explaining things...

Now for those who argue Goku's character in Super is no different check this:

[spoiler][/spoiler]
[spoiler][/spoiler]

Honestly, anyone who says Goku's character in Super is handled well has to be a dirty, lying Super apologist.

I don't think using an image of a manga page someone edited is a good example of Super Goku. There are plenty of legitimate moments that actually happen in Super that could have been used instead if you wanted to compare him to Z Goku.

[HeroR]

You've done a far better job explaining things...

Now for those who argue Goku's character in Super is no different check this:

[spoiler][/spoiler]
[spoiler][/spoiler]

Honestly, anyone who says Goku's character in Super is handled well has to be a dirty, lying Super apologist.

So basically anyone who disagree with you is a lying, apologist and you support this by using a fan edit?

Really, this comes off as elementary and reminds me of this:

[DBZAOTA482]

You've done a far better job explaining things...

Now for those who argue Goku's character in Super is no different check this:

[spoiler][/spoiler]
[spoiler][/spoiler]

Honestly, anyone who says Goku's character in Super is handled well has to be a dirty, lying Super apologist.

I don't think using an image of a manga page someone edited is a good example of Super Goku. There are plenty of legitimate moments that actually happen in Super that could have been used instead if you wanted to compare him to Z Goku.

Now that you mentioned it I just realized it's an edit. Of course, I can't think of any moments where the Super Manga showed Goku as a functioning retard aside from the implication that he doesn't know what kissing is.

Anyways, whoever edited this deserves an award.

[TheMikado]

You've done a far better job explaining things...

Now for those who argue Goku's character in Super is no different check this:

[spoiler][/spoiler]
[spoiler][/spoiler]

Honestly, anyone who says Goku's character in Super is handled well has to be a dirty, lying Super apologist.

I don't think using an image of a manga page someone edited is a good example of Super Goku. There are plenty of legitimate moments that actually happen in Super that could have been used instead if you wanted to compare him to Z Goku.

Now that you mentioned it I just realized it's an edit. Of course, I can't think of any moments where the Super Manga showed Goku as a functioning retard aside from the implication that he doesn't know what kissing is.

Anyways, whoever edited this deserves an award.

There's obviously no one-to-one scenario for Super vs Z Goku, but this is the best approximation of the shift in tone, style, and presentation of Goku. Toriyama's Goku reactions and adjusts to the situation like we would. Super's Goku seems oblivious to the situation's gravity around him.

[Boo Machine]

At the risk of being labeled a dirty Apologist, I'd like to take a shot at certain points.

Alright, let’s go through ’em one by one:
– Goku vs Vegeta. First of all, Nappa was the one who killed Goku’s friends, not Vegeta. Secondly, yeah, Goku let him go in part because of how much he admired his strength, but it was also because he wanted to take the higher moral ground and show Vegeta that they were better than him in that respect. It wasn’t just him being some dope looking for another fight down the road.

That's exactly what that was. Goku never states that he wants to show Vegeta a better way or have a high moral ground. He just wants to fight him again because he thinks it would be a waste to lose someone so powerful. Krillin even says there is no way Vegeta would have a change of heart like piccolo and Goku agrees.

– Gohan vs Cell. Fair point here, but in fairness to Goku, he did try to jump in the fight once he realized what a colossal mistake that was.

So if we're taking what Goku does later into account, why are we so incapable of waiting to see what Goku does later in Super? It's easy to say everything worked out in hindsight.

– Goku vs Kid Buu. Let’s be real here. In spite of whatever Goku said, he was NOT holding back against Kid Buu. Anyone who’s watched that fight could see that Goku was giving it everything he had, it wasn’t enough and Kid Buu ended up kicking his ass. Whether he said that out of misplaced pride or just sheer arrogance, I don’t know, but it ain’t true.

I don't think we should be ignoring anything a character says to prove a point. It was a dumb thing to state he was holding back because it makes Goku look stupid. Which he was. It was a dumb thing to do. He kind of makes it up because he wanted to get Gotenks and Gohan to help but Vegeta suggested something else. So both him and Vegeta made dumb mistakes in the situation.

– Goku vs Fat Buu. Again, fair point here, but this is a double whammy of plot convenience and Goku betting that Gotenks would’ve been enough to beat Fat Buu (which, in fairness, it definitely would’ve been if he hadn’t transformed into Super Buu).

Again, I agree that Goku should have never said he was holding back here. Because it makes him look stupid. Which he was. Gotenks may have been enough but to let Majin Buu go on to kill people just because he wanted to give the boys a shot is him willingly allowing those deaths.

Yes, that Goku. No doubt that he made some obviously questionable and outright stupid decisions at times, but not a single one of those is anywhere near the immeasurable levels of stupidity that Super’s Goku treads on. It’s the gap between the heavens and the earth. There’s no comparison.

Not to mention he is probably the most bland and one dimensional character of Shonen hero, Naruto, Yusuke, Gon etc etc

I don't see how they're that much different. If you mean the scope of multiverses, then fair enough but at least with the tournament he had no clue about what would happen, where in the other examples you stated he knew exactly what he was doing and risking.

I'm not trying to convince anyone to like Goku. If you don't like him, then that's just that. But I'm baffled when we pretend like he is a completely different character. Handled poorly, sure, but not different.

[Boo Machine]

I don't think using an image of a manga page someone edited is a good example of Super Goku. There are plenty of legitimate moments that actually happen in Super that could have been used instead if you wanted to compare him to Z Goku.

Now that you mentioned it I just realized it's an edit. Of course, I can't think of any moments where the Super Manga showed Goku as a functioning retard aside from the implication that he doesn't know what kissing is.

Anyways, whoever edited this deserves an award.

There's obviously no one-to-one scenario for Super vs Z Goku, but this is the best approximation of the shift in tone, style, and presentation of Goku. Toriyama's Goku reactions and adjusts to the situation like we would. Super's Goku seems oblivious to the situation's gravity around him.

You mean a fan edit someone made to make Goku look stupid in Super is the best example of Goku looking stupid in Super? Sounds iffy.

There are plenty of moments in Super where Goku is way too laid back. Especially in the anime. Like when he confronts Black for the first time with a giddy smile instead of the seriousness you may expect. If an actual example doesn't exist then you can't just make one up.

[HeroR]

You mean a fan edit someone made to make Goku look stupid in Super is the best example of Goku looking stupid in Super? Sounds iffy.

There are plenty of moments in Super where Goku is way too laid back. Especially in the anime. Like when he confronts Black for the first time with a giddy smile instead of the seriousness you may expect. If an actual example doesn't exist then you can't just make one up.

That Black example isn't the best either since, to be blunt, no one took Black seriously except Trunks. Like, I didn't see Vegeta yelling for Goku to hurry up or he'll jump in. Vegeta was more than happy to sit back and watch like it was pay-per-view. When Piccolo and Krillin heard that Goku and Vegeta lost twice to Black, they were shocked since they didn't think he was that strong despite his growth.

[Shuby]

Toriyama might be good at drawing but not at telling stories and develop layered/complex characters. Drawing and writing are two completely opposite things. Goku is a living proof of this, one-dimensional, illogical, goofy character. One may say well that's what he is about, he has been always like this. The only thing i am saying is, is that he should've progressed at least a bit, having a main character who isn't layered, only loves fighting and sucks pretty much at everything else gets boring overtime. Not to mention they're playing this stupid card of his too much to the point where people are now really getting frustrated with the character, which is evident if you look on forums, comment secions and written articles.

[Boo Machine]

You mean a fan edit someone made to make Goku look stupid in Super is the best example of Goku looking stupid in Super? Sounds iffy.

There are plenty of moments in Super where Goku is way too laid back. Especially in the anime. Like when he confronts Black for the first time with a giddy smile instead of the seriousness you may expect. If an actual example doesn't exist then you can't just make one up.

That Black example isn't the best either since, to be blunt, no one took Black seriously except Trunks. Like, I didn't see Vegeta yelling for Goku to hurry up or he'll jump in. Vegeta was more than happy to sit back and watch like it was pay-per-view. When Piccolo and Krillin heard that Goku and Vegeta lost twice to Black, they were shocked since they didn't think he was that strong despite his growth.

Absolutely. But it was the best example I could think of at the top of my head of "Super Goku". But I wanted to give an example that there are moments in Super people could use instead of using a fan edit someone made to exaggerate Gokus stupidity to prove a point.

[Shuby]

You mean a fan edit someone made to make Goku look stupid in Super is the best example of Goku looking stupid in Super? Sounds iffy.

There are plenty of moments in Super where Goku is way too laid back. Especially in the anime. Like when he confronts Black for the first time with a giddy smile instead of the seriousness you may expect. If an actual example doesn't exist then you can't just make one up.

That Black example isn't the best either since, to be blunt, no one took Black seriously except Trunks. Like, I didn't see Vegeta yelling for Goku to hurry up or he'll jump in. Vegeta was more than happy to sit back and watch like it was pay-per-view. When Piccolo and Krillin heard that Goku and Vegeta lost twice to Black, they were shocked since they didn't think he was that strong despite his growth.

No one took Black seriously, Trunks didnt want to hear him out, neither did everyone else. I feel like he was made in the wrong anime.

[Boo Machine]

Toriyama might be good at drawing but not at telling stories and develop layered/complex characters. Drawing and writing are two completely opposite things. Goku is a living proof of this, one-dimensional, illogical, goofy character. One may say well that's what he is about, he has been always like this. The only thing i am saying is, is that he should've progressed at least a bit, having a main character who isn't layered, only loves fighting and sucks pretty much at everything else gets boring overtime. Not to mention they're playing this stupid card of his too much to the point where people are now really getting frustrated with the character, which is evident if you look on forums, comment secions and written articles.

I think you'll find plenty of people who agree that Gokus has never been a layered character. Progression could be used, definitely. Super exaggerates quite a few aspect sof gokus character that others may not appreciate, I agree.

Criticism is fine, I only ask we don't pretend Goku is a vastly different character now.

[Lujin_16]

Now he is like that but it can change in the real tournament if something happen to his team members that he becomes emotional and angry let's wait and
see..This Goku shows you how he underestimate Zeno because he acts like child and looks like a child hmm Goku will realize how wrong he was in
underestimate him and will act different more serious...If the the fans wants to see Goku always serious as in Z than meeeh Super is not for you..

[TheMikado]

Now that you mentioned it I just realized it's an edit. Of course, I can't think of any moments where the Super Manga showed Goku as a functioning retard aside from the implication that he doesn't know what kissing is.

Anyways, whoever edited this deserves an award.

There's obviously no one-to-one scenario for Super vs Z Goku, but this is the best approximation of the shift in tone, style, and presentation of Goku. Toriyama's Goku reactions and adjusts to the situation like we would. Super's Goku seems oblivious to the situation's gravity around him.

You mean a fan edit someone made to make Goku look stupid in Super is the best example of Goku looking stupid in Super? Sounds iffy.

There are plenty of moments in Super where Goku is way too laid back. Especially in the anime. Like when he confronts Black for the first time with a giddy smile instead of the seriousness you may expect. If an actual example doesn't exist then you can't just make one up.

I think the intent he was clear. To take Goku's approach to situations in Super and apply them to how he would react in a hypothetically similar situation. Then, to contrast how he was original portrayed by Toriyama. No one is trying to be deceiving, they are merely showing a contrast of the two different approaches to portraying Goku and what they would look like in similar circumstances. Given what we have seen of Super Goku I would call that characterization relatively fair.

The trademark Goku stare which is on like 90% of those cheap polyester shirts is huge in the western markets. Even when Goku confronts Beerus in the previous episode, he does the trademark stare and then launches into a gag of tricking Beerus about the stupid Zen'o button. The entire presence of Goku is different. The facial expressions in certain situations etc. I would consider that contrast this fan artist presented relatively accurate if a bit exaggerated. The key is that the tone completely shift based on the adjustments he made despite most things being largely the same.

[Boo Machine]

There's obviously no one-to-one scenario for Super vs Z Goku, but this is the best approximation of the shift in tone, style, and presentation of Goku. Toriyama's Goku reactions and adjusts to the situation like we would. Super's Goku seems oblivious to the situation's gravity around him.

You mean a fan edit someone made to make Goku look stupid in Super is the best example of Goku looking stupid in Super? Sounds iffy.

There are plenty of moments in Super where Goku is way too laid back. Especially in the anime. Like when he confronts Black for the first time with a giddy smile instead of the seriousness you may expect. If an actual example doesn't exist then you can't just make one up.

I think the intent he was clear. To take Goku's approach to situations in Super and apply them to how he would react in a hypothetically similar situation. Then, to contrast how he was original portrayed by Toriyama. No one is trying to be deceiving, they are merely showing a contrast of the two different approaches to portraying Goku and what they would look like in similar circumstances. Given what we have seen of Super Goku I would call that characterization relatively fair.

The trademark Goku stare which is on like 90% of those cheap polyester shirts is huge in the western markets. Even when Goku confronts Beerus in the previous episode, he does the trademark stare and then launches into a gag of tricking Beerus about the stupid Zen'o button. The entire presence of Goku is different. The facial expressions in certain situations etc. I would consider that contrast this fan artist presented relatively accurate if a bit exaggerated. The key is that the tone completely shift based on the adjustments he made despite most things being largely the same.

How accurate you feel this is or not isn't the point I'm making here, My point is if you're going to be comparing two shows/Manga then both examples need to be from both shows/manga. You can't just use an legit example for one then use a picture someone made up for the other one, just to try and prove a point.

[HeroR]

Now he is like that but it can change in the real tournament if something happen to his team members that he becomes emotional and angry let's wait and
see..This Goku shows you how he underestimate Zeno because he acts like child and looks like a child hmm Goku will realize how wrong he was in
underestimate him and will act different more serious...If the the fans wants to see Goku always serious as in Z than meeeh Super is not for you..

I don't think Goku underestimate Zen'o. It think is has more to do with the person giving the warning, Beerus, is a hypocrite. Calling Zen'o unpredictably dangerous and not really being Goku's friend can just as easily applied to Beerus since he really doesn't treat Goku as a friend. He treats Goku closer to a pet or a toy that he will eventually play with. You can see this when he mocked Goku for being unable to save the U6 team from Champa, reminding him how the gods are superior to him, and bullies Goku around at times. Beerus won't even talk to Goku unless he gives tributes. While Zen'o, despite being much higher than Beerus, treats him with respect and with what seems to be real warmness. The biggest issue with Zen'o is he doesn't seem to know or understand the pain his mindless destruction causes, while Beerus is aware and does it anyway.