I find Goku to be the worst character in this show

[Kanassa]

It's not even the meme. Goku has KNOWINGLY put multiple lives at risk with his decisions before. I believe we went over what those were in another thread. If we're going by the logic of those that want to hate him then that would make him a dick.

Hell, in Super the worst consequences Goku's actions invoke were usually done unknowingly. Like sending Zamasu off the deep end or the tournament rule.

[Boo Machine]

It's not even the meme. Goku has KNOWINGLY put multiple lives at risk with his decisions before. I believe we went over what those were in another thread. If we're going by the logic of those that want to hate him then that would make him a dick.

Hell, in Super the worst consequences Goku's actions invoke were usually done unknowingly. Like sending Zamasu off the deep end or the tournament rule.

Right. Goku may of set those actions into motion. But that wasn't his intention and he had no way of knowing what would happen. You could call him an idiot if you wanted, but that's about it. At least in the case of Zamasu he was trying to prevent a problem.

In the original things like Letting Vegeta go and letting the androids be built, he very much knows what's at risk but chooses to go through with his decisions anyway, for the sake of a good fight and testing himself.

[DBZAOTA482]

They're both stories but one doesn't care about keeping character personalities consistent if it fits the joke, the other one is much less tolerant in doing so, why are we going in circles over this very simple point?

Because they're both just genres. Any story that ignores characterization for the sake of cheap thrills is bad writing. BTW those instances I pointed to of Cartman showing concern were genuine.

It's still in Super, which means it's a valid representation of Super Goku just as any of the other scenes you mentioned. Disregarding it because of arbitrary reasons means you don't actually want to have a debate and you're just trying to push your twisted view of the character/show/whatever your point is supposed to be on to everyone else.

It doesn't work that way. If you wanna prove Goku isn't a sociopath then list examples that are unique to Super because simply following a outline isn't good enough.

Besides my point is Goku is so badly written in Super that you can't blame people for thinking he's a sociopath.

And there has been no change in Toriyama's portrayal of the character like you keep trying to imply there has. This is a quote from 1996:

Toriyama: Right. There’s how, basically, Son Goku from Dragon Ball doesn’t fight for the sake of others, but because he wants to fight against strong guys. So once Dragon Ball got animated, at any rate, I’ve always been dissatisfied with the “righteous hero”-type portrayal they gave him. I guess I couldn’t quite get them to grasp the elements of “poison” that slip in and out of sight among the shadows.

That doesn't prove me wrong. I never said anything about Goku being righteous but not this unlikable asshole you're insinuating.

"So basically, Goku, these super strong androids kill everyone. Please stop them okay?"
"Yeah, I'm gonna fight them all!"

Wha...? This never happened and it most certainly didn't happen in the Cell arc.

Root for the main character? Were we supposed to call Goku such a great guy when he let Vegeta go? Were we supposed to say Goku was doing it for the best of everyone when he let Freeza power-up? Were we supposed to think Goku is a genius when he refused to find Gero? Sometimes you're not supposed to root for the main character, the series makes this evidently clear multiple times. This whole tournament deal is another case where you're not supposed to root for Goku once again. What I'm getting from you is that you've made up some headcanon about how Goku is supposed to be and you can't accept any dissenting portrayal of the character anymore.

Except for the original series treated Goku as this great guy even if he does fuck up at times. Super now seems intent on making people hate him (except delusional apologists like you perhaps...).

1. Letting Vegeta live was selfish but Goku acknowledged it was a selfish request (his saiyan urges got the best of him fighting someone so strong) and later showed regret for it.

2. It was established Goku wasn't exactly himself when he first became Super Saiyan and he wanted to break Freeza's spirit for the horrible things he did.

3. The Z-Warriors not finding Gero was mostly Vegeta who literally threatened to kill Bulma (and Krillin) for even suggesting the idea. Goku wanted to fight the androids too but he at least had moral justification for not hunting down Gero before he did the deed.

I understand even in the original series Goku can be a selfish idiot at times but he at least know when to get serious and never intended to get anyone harmed while Goku in Super seems to blind to the dangers or just doesn't care.

I may have exaggerated in my example, but I know what a sociopath is. I'm just starting to question if others here understand it.

Signs of caring in super from the top of my head are.

-Goku doing everything he can to keep Blasts thrown by Beerus from hitting the earth. Not the movie. Super.

- episode 24. Shitty episode, but a good chunk of it was Goku protecting everyone from being hit by Freeza leaving himself open to be attacked multiple times.

- When Goku shows concern for the U6 fighter whom Champa wanted to wipe out.

- The episode where Goku spends time with Pan.

- The rage moment against Black

If you don't like the character anymore then that fine. But we don't need to throw around the strongest words and labels we can think of at the character to justify the dislike. The very fact the people want to put the label of Sociopath on goku is probably one of the silliest things I've seen a Dragonball fan try to do.

I never really labelled him a sociopath myself but what I'm saying is I hardly blame anyone for coming to that conclusion.

[Boo Machine]

Except for the original series treated Goku as this great guy even if he does fuck up at times. Super now seems intent on making people hate him (except delusional apologists like you perhaps...).

1. Letting Vegeta live was selfish but Goku acknowledged it was a selfish request (his saiyan urges got the best of him fighting someone so strong) and later showed regret for it.

2. It was established Goku wasn't exactly himself when he first became Super Saiyan and he wanted to break Freeza's spirit for the horrible things he did.

3. The Z-Warriors not finding Gero was mostly Vegeta who literally threatened to kill Bulma (and Krillin) for even suggesting the idea. Goku wanted to fight the androids too but he at least had moral justification for not hunting down Gero before he did the deed.

I understand even in the original series Goku can be a selfish idiot at times but he at least know when to get serious and never intended to get anyone harmed while Goku in Super seems to blind to the dangers or just doesn't care.

I don't recall Goku ever showing regret for letting Vegeta go. Even if he did it'd doesn't erase his decision. Saying sorry for the fuck up doesn't erase the fuck up. Especially since you say he should grow and learn from mistakes, yet he still makes mistakes that are just as big.

And if showing regret allows us to hand wave away a bad decision then why can't we hand wave the tournament? He shows regret.It's just not as much as you may have wanted.

He may have given a moral justification for not hunting Gero, but we all know that it's a cheap one. It's clear his main reason is to fight tough robots. And vegeta was so beneath him at that point he would have barely been an issue.

I may have exaggerated in my example, but I know what a sociopath is. I'm just starting to question if others here understand it.

Signs of caring in super from the top of my head are.

-Goku doing everything he can to keep Blasts thrown by Beerus from hitting the earth. Not the movie. Super.

- episode 24. Shitty episode, but a good chunk of it was Goku protecting everyone from being hit by Freeza leaving himself open to be attacked multiple times.

- When Goku shows concern for the U6 fighter whom Champa wanted to wipe out.

- The episode where Goku spends time with Pan.

- The rage moment against Black

If you don't like the character anymore then that fine. But we don't need to throw around the strongest words and labels we can think of at the character to justify the dislike. The very fact the people want to put the label of Sociopath on goku is probably one of the silliest things I've seen a Dragonball fan try to do.

I never really labelled him a sociopath myself but what I'm saying is I hardly blame anyone for coming to that conclusion.

You sure could. Because it's inaccurate and an exaggeration used to drive a point that isn't even there. And the examples I mention continue to be ignored by the people who so badly want to pin the name of Sociopath on him.

[Cure Dragon 255]

You havent posted any examples. You just said "Cartman has shown empathy, take my word for it!". Examples or it didnt happen!

[Doctor.]

Because they're both just genres. Any story that ignores characterization for the sake of cheap thrills is bad writing. BTW those instances I pointed to of Cartman showing concern were genuine.

Why has this jumped to bad writing? I'm not arguing whether or not Super Goku is badly-written, I'm arguing against the assertion that he's a sociopath.

It doesn't work that way. If you wanna prove Goku isn't a sociopath then list examples that are unique to Super because simply following a outline isn't good enough.

It definitely works that way, you're just setting up arbitrary barriers. Saying "Oh, that doesn't count, because I think Toriyama changed his mind at x point!" isn't a valid argument and you should know it isn't. All of Super follows Toriyama's outline, or at least most of it. I've already listed various examples, as have other members, and you just discredited them based on arbitrary rules.

Besides my point is Goku is so badly written in Super that you can't blame people for thinking he's a sociopath.

Yeah, I can and I will, because Goku is badly written in Super not because he's out-of-character, but because he doesn't develop despite making the same mistakes over and over again. And since he's not out-of-character, he's not any more of a dick than he already was, regardless of whether or not Goku is well-written in Super.

That doesn't prove me wrong. I never said anything about Goku being righteous but not this unlikable asshole you're insinuating.

You insinuated that Toriyama changed his portrayal of Goku recently. I'm saying that's just false, Toriyama has always had the same view of Goku.

Wha...? This never happened and it most certainly didn't happen in the Cell arc.

Goku clearly ignoring Trunks' warnings and not finding Gero when he had the chance isn't him being a dick?

Except for the original series treated Goku as this great guy even if he does fuck up at times. Super now seems intent on making people hate him (except delusional apologists like you perhaps...).

The intent in both series is the same: Goku is selfish and puts people in danger despite having good intentions. He fucks up and gets what he deserves in the end, nobody ever tries to portray him as a flawless hero. Of course Super is making people hate Goku, that's the entire point of the recent story arc. If you try to argue that Super has been trying to make people hate him before this arc, then that's a flawed argument again: Super Goku wasn't being hated on for being a selfish dick, he was being hated on because he was seen as childish.

1. Letting Vegeta live was selfish but Goku acknowledged it was a selfish request (his saiyan urges got the best of him fighting someone so strong) and later showed regret for it.

2. It was established Goku wasn't exactly himself when he first became Super Saiyan and he wanted to break Freeza's spirit for the horrible things he did.

3. The Z-Warriors not finding Gero was mostly Vegeta who literally threatened to kill Bulma (and Krillin) for even suggesting the idea. Goku wanted to fight the androids too but he at least had moral justification for not hunting down Gero before he did the deed.

So you acknowledge it was selfish. Vegeta killed an entire village that was never wished back, let us not forget.

And you acknowledge he was selfish once again.

Nobody said Goku had to kill Gero. Finding him and destroying his research would be a morally reasonable thing to do. But he didn't do that, because he wanted to fight the androids instead despite all Trunks said. Which means he was being selfish.

I understand even in the original series Goku can be a selfish idiot at times but he at least know when to get serious and never intended to get anyone harmed while Goku in Super seems to blind to the dangers or just doesn't care.

We're deviating from sociopathy again.

Are you seriously trying to argue that Goku in Super actively tries to get innocent people harmed? Because if so, then you're just being unreasonable and I have nothing more to debate. And if not, then I don't see what the difference in attitude between Super Goku and Z Goku is, besides the aforementioned childness, which on its own shouldn't make him more of a dick.

[DBZAOTA482]

I don't recall Goku ever showing regret for letting Vegeta go. Even if he did it'd doesn't erase his decision. Saying sorry for the fuck up doesn't erase the fuck up. Especially since you say he should grow and learn from mistakes, yet he still makes mistakes that are just as big.

And if showing regret allows us to hand wave away a bad decision then why can't we hand wave the tournament? He shows regret.It's just not as much as you may have wanted.

He may have given a moral justification for not hunting Gero, but we all know that it's a cheap one. It's clear his main reason is to fight tough robots. And vegeta was so beneath him at that point he would have barely been an issue.

Except he does learn... in Z at least. For example, Goku told Gohan with his rage boost nobody can beat him during the Boo Saga as opposed to the Cell Saga where he neglected to tell him about his plan.

[spoiler]
[/spoiler]

Also Goku was annoyed with getting yelled at over the tournament and was called out by other characters for not caring which implies he's anything but regretful.

And the gap between Vegeta and Krillin/Bulma is waaaaayyyyy bigger than Goku has on him. He can kill those two in seconds without anyone noticing. There was also guarantee gazillions of people would die from the andriods same with the Vegeta situation.

You sure could. Because it's inaccurate and an exaggeration used to drive a point that isn't even there. And the examples I mention continue to be ignored by the people who so badly want to pin the name of Sociopath on him.

Because a sociopath isn't just people who care about nothing. It's a lack of ability to feel empathy (different from concern) and function within society.

Why has this jumped to bad writing? I'm not arguing whether or not Super Goku is badly-written, I'm arguing against the assertion that he's a sociopath.

Because Goku coming off as a sociopath when he's not meant to be is bad writing.

It definitely works that way, you're just setting up arbitrary barriers. Saying "Oh, that doesn't count, because I think Toriyama changed his mind at x point!" isn't a valid argument and you should know it isn't. All of Super follows Toriyama's outline, or at least most of it. I've already listed various examples, as have other members, and you just discredited them based on arbitrary rules.

I don't see what's so hard to grasp. What I'm saying is those two small examples don't erase all the stupid shit Super writes in (mostly courtesy of Toei) and you have to give more examples to balance things out if you feel people thinking Goku in Super is a sociopath is pure blasphemy.

Yeah, I can and I will, because Goku is badly written in Super not because he's out-of-character, but because he doesn't develop despite making the same mistakes over and over again. And since he's not out-of-character, he's not any more of a dick than he already was, regardless of whether or not Goku is well-written in Super.

Goku is badly written in Super for both reasons. Z Goku would never forget senzus or the Mafuba to an important battle, nearly piss on Whis' floor, not know what kissing is despite being married for 20 years and having two kids, waste time asking pointless questions and holding back against Copy Vegeta despite that the real Vegeta would die if Goku loses, and not care that Future Bulma was killed by Goku Black (and not understand Vegeta's anger over it).

If he's not OOC in Super then he's definitely flanderized.

You insinuated that Toriyama changed his portrayal of Goku recently. I'm saying that's just false, Toriyama has always had the same view of Goku.

The only thing I said was how Toriyama confirmed in 2014 Goku doesn't care for his family while Vegeta does which is bullshit even going by the manga where both Saiyans had practically the same priorities.

Goku clearly ignoring Trunks' warnings and not finding Gero when he had the chance isn't him being a dick?

It would be if that were actually the case.

The intent in both series is the same: Goku is selfish and puts people in danger despite having good intentions. He fucks up and gets what he deserves in the end, nobody ever tries to portray him as a flawless hero. Of course Super is making people hate Goku, that's the entire point of the recent story arc. If you try to argue that Super has been trying to make people hate him before this arc, then that's a flawed argument again: Super Goku wasn't being hated on for being a selfish dick, he was being hated on because he was seen as childish.

If you really wanna simplify things like that and regurgitating the same shit every apologist says then all I can say is this is why we can't have nice things. Goku wasn't just childish in Super prior, he was a functioning retard (still is) and a bit of an asshole. Not really a good combination for our hero.

So you acknowledge it was selfish. Vegeta killed an entire village that was never wished back, let us not forget.

And you acknowledge he was selfish once again.

Nobody said Goku had to kill Gero. Finding him and destroying his research would be a morally reasonable thing to do. But he didn't do that, because he wanted to fight the androids instead despite all Trunks said. Which means he was being selfish.

Again, you're completely missing the point. Vegeta when Goku spared him was beaten and was not guaranteed to be dangerous to anyone in Goku's mind so it's obviously not as extreme as the tournament, but even then he took responsibly for his actions.

The androids situation is also clearly nowhere near as extreme as the multiverse tournament and the Z-Warriors at least have the sense to prepare for the androids.

We're deviating from sociopathy again.

Are you seriously trying to argue that Goku in Super actively tries to get innocent people harmed? Because if so, then you're just being unreasonable and I have nothing more to debate. And if not, then I don't see what the difference in attitude between Super Goku and Z Goku is, besides the aforementioned childness, which on its own shouldn't make him more of a dick.

What the fuck, man?! Where did I say this?! What I'm saying is Super has Goku not caring that he's doomed 11 universes as long as he gets a good fight when Goku in the original series would do anything in his power to prevent anyone from getting hurt seems pretty sociopathic. If you can't see the difference then what I'll kindly ask you to just end this discussion and take the L. It takes a real man to walk away.

[dbzfan7]

Nah Goten is still the worst. I'd have tied him with Videl, but Videl at least had some personality in one filler...so she edges ahead of him.

[Doctor.]

Because Goku coming off as a sociopath when he's not meant to be is bad writing.

Him "coming off" as a sociopath just shows the severe lack of understanding coming from the fanbase of what being a sociopath actually entails.

I don't see what's so hard to grasp. What I'm saying is those two small examples don't erase all the stupid shit Super writes in (mostly courtesy of Toei) and you have to give more examples to balance things out if you feel people thinking Goku in Super is a sociopath is pure blasphemy.

It's not "two examples", Boo Machine gave a fairly lengthy list of other examples that you also chose to ignore. Well, no, you didn't ignore them, I'll be fair, you just didn't try to argue against them.

Goku is badly written in Super for both reasons. Z Goku would never forget senzus or the Mafuba to an important battle, nearly piss on Whis' floor, not know what kissing is despite being married for 20 years and having two kids, waste time asking pointless questions and holding back against Copy Vegeta despite that the real Vegeta would die if Goku loses, and not care that Future Bulma was killed by Goku Black (and not understand Vegeta's anger over it).

If he's not OOC in Super then he's definitely flanderized.

Sure, he's flanderized, that doesn't exactly make your point any stronger, because he's not a sociopath nor is he being portrayed as one, accidentally or not.

It would be if that were actually the case.

It is? Why are you just saying "Nuh-huh" instead of refuting the argument? Trunks came back in time, told Goku all about how strong the androids were, Bulma and the others told him they should ask Shenlong about Dr. Gero's location (and, once again, there was no need to kill him, destroying his research would have been morally responsible; not to mention that Gero had already worked for the RRA) and Goku blatantly refused because he wanted to fight the androids in person and see how strong they really were, to confirm what Trunks had said.

I literally cannot see how you can whitewash this.

If you really wanna simplify things like that and regurgitating the same shit every apologist says then all I can say is this is why we can't have nice things. Goku wasn't just childish in Super prior, he was a functioning retard (still is) and a bit of an asshole. Not really a good combination for our hero.

What's with this "apologist" label? I don't care about Goku's characterization in Super, I've already said it's bad. Can't you tell what I'm arguing about? I'm arguing against the notion that he's a sociopath or that he can be interpreted as a sociopath due to the show's bad writing, as that's the argument you're making. I don't care about anything else that isn't relevant to this.

Are you just labeling everyone you disagree with as an "apologist" because the boogeyman is just that scary? Spouting buzzwords won't help you in your argument.

Vegeta when Goku spared him was beaten and was not guaranteed to be dangerous to anyone in Goku's mind so it's obviously not as extreme as the tournament, but even then he took responsibly for his actions.

Vegeta was escaping in his spaceship. For all he knew, he would recover and continue being a genocidal maniac without ever meeting Goku again. Letting someone like that go because he wanted to fight him again is him, y'know, being a selfish dick.

We've yet to see if Goku is going to take responsibility for anything, so that's a bit unfair to say, isn't it?

The androids situation is also clearly nowhere near as extreme as the multiverse tournament and the Z-Warriors at least have the sense to prepare for the androids.

No, it's just as extreme, if not more-so. Because Goku didn't know about the consequences of asking for the multiverse tournament, he just thought it'd be a friendly tournament between all 12 universes. You can't seriously blame Zeno's decision to destroy every universe on Goku alone. Not to mention, he can always wish everyone back with the Super DBs, as they're the prize of the tournament. This wasn't the case in the android arc. He knew everyone would die, that includes Piccolo, that means no dragon balls, and he knew that future Trunks' world was a living Hell. And he still chose to fight the androids instead. Top-notch hero you got there, let me tell you.

What the fuck, man?! Where did I say this?!

This is what you said.

I understand even in the original series Goku can be a selfish idiot at times but he at least know when to get serious and never intended to get anyone harmed while Goku in Super seems to blind to the dangers or just doesn't care.

You clearly implied that Goku in Super is unlike the original series Goku who "knows how to get serious and never intended to get anyone harmed". Thus, what you're basically saying is that Goku in Super does want people to get harmed. I don't know what's with the reaction, I'm just breaking apart what you say.

What I'm saying is Super has Goku not caring that he's doomed 11 universes as long as he gets a good fight when Goku in the original series would do anything in his power to prevent anyone from getting hurt seems pretty sociopathic

Refer to the Cell arc once again, where Goku knew exactly what the outcome of their fight would be and he still decided to rush in anyway, whilst in Super he wasn't directly responsible for the consequences and he still has a way to revert everything back to how it was if he wins.

If you can't see the difference then what I'll kindly ask you to just end this discussion and take the L. It takes a real man to walk away.

Take your own advice.

[Boo Machine]

Except he does learn... in Z at least. For example, Goku told Gohan with his rage boost nobody can beat him during the Boo Saga as opposed to the Cell Saga where he neglected to tell him about his plan.

You mean he told Gohan about using rage 7 years after Gohan had already figured it out first hand? Not a really good example. And by making the same mistakes I mean letting people go and putting fairness and a good fight above getting rid of a threat right away. A mistake he made multiple times.

Also Goku was annoyed with getting yelled at over the tournament and was called out by other characters for not caring which implies he's anything but regretful.

The moment he was told about the rule he showed regret and offered to fix it right away. They told him not to. It was later he told Gohan he heard an earful because of course he did. Goku and by extention us don't need to hear the blame game the whole episode. The responsible thing to do now would be to fight for his universe and try to fix it later. Which is something he know he can do if he wins.

And the gap between Vegeta and Krillin/Bulma is waaaaayyyyy bigger than Goku has on him. He can kill those two in seconds without anyone noticing. There was also guarantee gazillions of people would die from the andriods same with the Vegeta situation.

And you think Goku would be unable to stop him because why? In fact what makes you think Vegeta would go through and do anything to provoke Goku into killing him? Now THAT would be dumb and out of character. I believe you claimed in another thread Original Goku never does anything without knowing what to expect. Well if he actually thought Vegeta was a threat to his friends, why would he let him live? That sounds very much like not caring about the lives of his friends by letting an alien with anger issues, who threatened them, run around freely.

A smart super hero like Goku would take care of Vegeta then hunt gero. By your logic Goku makes 2 mistakes here. Letting gero build death machines AND letting mr. "I'll kill your friends" do whatever.

Because a sociopath isn't just people who care about nothing. It's a lack of ability to feel empathy (different from concern) and function within society.

Except Goku very much functions in society in Super. Possibly even more so than in Z. Him not showing as much regret in one instance doesn't make a sociopath.

[TekTheNinja]

Even if you still deny Goku being a sociopath, you GOT to see that he's still regressed as a character. Maybe he shows SOME empathy, MAYBE. But he still show MUCH LESS than he had in the past. That's AWFUL writing.

[Ki Breaker]

Even if you still deny Goku being a sociopath, you GOT to see that he's still regressed as a character. Maybe he shows SOME empathy, MAYBE. But he still show MUCH LESS than he had in the past. That's AWFUL writing.

Don't bother mate, for some reason a lot of people don't see this and it comes down to him not killing buu right away, which doesn't go anywhere..
Goku has definitely regressed, he is coming off as an addict who is ready to kill in order to have is fix, he is literally doing this right now in the show

[Boo Machine]

Even if you still deny Goku being a sociopath, you GOT to see that he's still regressed as a character. Maybe he shows SOME empathy, MAYBE. But he still show MUCH LESS than he had in the past. That's AWFUL writing.

No one is arguing bad writing. At least I don't think so. I'm arguing the silliness of using of the word sociopath.

Goku not being written as well as he should be is a fair enough statement to make.

Don't bother mate, for some reason a lot of people don't see this and it comes down to him not killing buu right away, which doesn't go anywhere..

Usually when people use "not killing Majin buu" argument it's usually as a response to those who think Goku has never made a bad decision based on selfishness. Which isn't true.

Goku has definitely regressed, he is coming off as an addict who is ready to kill in order to have is fix, he is literally doing this right now in the show

That kind of implies that Goku knew there was going to be a death rule when he wanted the tournament or would still have gladly accepted the rule as a condition for it, if he did know. Which isn't true.

[coola]

Fo rme, that's bigest problem ith Super, some characters, like Goku, Chi Chi, Goten, Trunks, not only didn't developed, they regresed, i personally watch anime to see character grow, whatever it is action or romantic anime, i like see at least some development, if i just want to see a fight, i will play a game.

[Lord Beerus]

The latest spoilers are incredibly intriguing, given the perspective of this thread. So for those who don't know:
[spoiler][/spoiler]
So... yeah. Episode 81 is gonna have a major shift in the plot.

On one end, Goku could undo the stipulation that he indirectly caused and prevent trillions upon trillions of lives being put at risk, but also undermining the whole perspective of the tournament and the Universal Survival arc in itself. But on the other, Goku could end up directly dooming several universes because he gets so into a fight and he becomes incredibly unlikable in the process in-universe and with the certain parts of the fandom. This is a very complex scenario, and they are really setting up something major here. But I just have to say that I love the fact that Toei/Toriyama are willing to take such a big gamble with the narrative in this fashion. I mean, Goku has thrown fights in the past before, so it wouldn't be beyond him to do it again. I have to say though that this is going to define the tone of the whole arc and Goku's characterisation in Super. Goku's love for battle has been discussed a few times in the series but never outright questioned or the focal point of an arc. I have no idea how they're gonna pull this off without pissing off the fanbase, but I'm insanely intrigued to find out how this pans out. Episode 81 is going to fountain endless debates about Goku's character.

[dragonballgeek]

He's a seriously unlikeable character tbh. Selfish, childish and idiotic. He's always been like this abandoning his family to train and risking the world for a fight. It's not the first time he's done this.

Let's Vegeta (who tried to blow up earth) live, let's freeza (mass genocidal tyrant) live and stands back to see how mirai trunks does against him because he's curious, gives cell (biomech murderer) a senzu bean and throws his pacifist son into the fight, threatens supreme kai's life because he wants to fight knowing Buu will be revived because of it and doesn't waste Buu right away since he had SSJ3 hidden in his ass the whole arc. I'm sure I'm missing a few and that just in Z.

Horrible character. Saving the world just happens to be a coincidence it seems. Honestly should have stayed dead. I'm glad everyones finally seeing how shit a character he is. It's about damn time

If the main character bothers you so much why are you still watching the show..?

[ChiefWamsutta]

He's a seriously unlikeable character tbh. Selfish, childish and idiotic. He's always been like this abandoning his family to train and risking the world for a fight. It's not the first time he's done this.

Let's Vegeta (who tried to blow up earth) live, let's freeza (mass genocidal tyrant) live and stands back to see how mirai trunks does against him because he's curious, gives cell (biomech murderer) a senzu bean and throws his pacifist son into the fight, threatens supreme kai's life because he wants to fight knowing Buu will be revived because of it and doesn't waste Buu right away since he had SSJ3 hidden in his ass the whole arc. I'm sure I'm missing a few and that just in Z.

Horrible character. Saving the world just happens to be a coincidence it seems. Honestly should have stayed dead. I'm glad everyones finally seeing how shit a character he is. It's about damn time

Hahahahahaha, what did you expect Goku to be Superman? Why does he need to be a hero who does everything he can to save the world where he selflessly acts for others? Goku is better than Superman, Naruto, etc. because of his multi-dimensional design of self-centered risk-taking. It's good storytelling and character development to show that he is terribly flawed.

[TekTheNinja]

He's a seriously unlikeable character tbh. Selfish, childish and idiotic. He's always been like this abandoning his family to train and risking the world for a fight. It's not the first time he's done this.

Let's Vegeta (who tried to blow up earth) live, let's freeza (mass genocidal tyrant) live and stands back to see how mirai trunks does against him because he's curious, gives cell (biomech murderer) a senzu bean and throws his pacifist son into the fight, threatens supreme kai's life because he wants to fight knowing Buu will be revived because of it and doesn't waste Buu right away since he had SSJ3 hidden in his ass the whole arc. I'm sure I'm missing a few and that just in Z.

Horrible character. Saving the world just happens to be a coincidence it seems. Honestly should have stayed dead. I'm glad everyones finally seeing how shit a character he is. It's about damn time

Hahahahahaha, what did you expect Goku to be Superman? Why does he need to be a hero who does everything he can to save the world where he selflessly acts for others? Goku is better than Superman, Naruto, etc. because of his multi-dimensional design of self-centered risk-taking. It's good storytelling and character development to show that he is terribly flawed.

HA! No. Superman and Naruto are much better characters than Goku (or at least DBS Goku) because they actually develop and grow.

[DBZAOTA482]

Him "coming off" as a sociopath just shows the severe lack of understanding coming from the fanbase of what being a sociopath actually entails.

Then describe what a sociopath "actually" is.

It's not "two examples", Boo Machine gave a fairly lengthy list of other examples that you also chose to ignore. Well, no, you didn't ignore them, I'll be fair, you just didn't try to argue against them.

I read those examples already but you're not Boo Machine and they don't really answer the sociopath accusations.

It is? Why are you just saying "Nuh-huh" instead of refuting the argument? Trunks came back in time, told Goku all about how strong the androids were, Bulma and the others told him they should ask Shenlong about Dr. Gero's location (and, once again, there was no need to kill him, destroying his research would have been morally responsible; not to mention that Gero had already worked for the RRA) and Goku blatantly refused because he wanted to fight the androids in person and see how strong they really were, to confirm what Trunks had said.

I literally cannot see how you can whitewash this.

It's obviously nowhere near as extreme as the tournament thing. There's no guarantee people would get hurt and the Z-Warriors actually have the sense to prepare for the androids. Even a child can see that.

What's with this "apologist" label? I don't care about Goku's characterization in Super, I've already said it's bad. Can't you tell what I'm arguing about? I'm arguing against the notion that he's a sociopath or that he can be interpreted as a sociopath due to the show's bad writing, as that's the argument you're making. I don't care about anything else that isn't relevant to this.

If you don't care about Goku's characterization in Super then why are you arguing in the first place. It has everything to do with the debate.

Are you just labeling everyone you disagree with as an "apologist" because the boogeyman is just that scary? Spouting buzzwords won't help you in your argument.

No, just people who go defend Super to the bitter even if it means throwing the original series under a bus to do so. Besides, these people like to throw labels themselves (far more than I do) so don't get mad when the shoe on the other foot.

Vegeta was escaping in his spaceship. For all he knew, he would recover and continue being a genocidal maniac without ever meeting Goku again. Letting someone like that go because he wanted to fight him again is him, y'know, being a selfish dick.

We've yet to see if Goku is going to take responsibility for anything, so that's a bit unfair to say, isn't it?

Uhh... no it's not. Because it made clear he didn't think the whole thing through when they were heading off to the Son Wukong hospital. Him being a dick would be him not caring about the potential consequences so it's more reckless than anything.

A spoiler for Episode 81 reveals Goku would rather let the 11 universes get destroyed then accept losing so... not really.

No, it's just as extreme, if not more-so. Because Goku didn't know about the consequences of asking for the multiverse tournament, he just thought it'd be a friendly tournament between all 12 universes. You can't seriously blame Zeno's decision to destroy every universe on Goku alone. Not to mention, he can always wish everyone back with the Super DBs, as they're the prize of the tournament. This wasn't the case in the android arc. He knew everyone would die, that includes Piccolo, that means no dragon balls, and he knew that future Trunks' world was a living Hell. And he still chose to fight the androids instead. Top-notch hero you got there, let me tell you.

Yes I am blaming him because he warned by others not associate with Zeno but not only did he ignore them. he shows no care just as long as he gets a good fight in the end and the future only went to shit because the androids attacked the Z-Warriors when they at least expected them while in the present, they actually have the sense to prepare so no one ends up dying.

Besides... there's no need for the universes to die at all.

This is what you said.

You clearly implied that Goku in Super is unlike the original series Goku who "knows how to get serious and never intended to get anyone harmed". Thus, what you're basically saying is that Goku in Super does want people to get harmed. I don't know what's with the reaction, I'm just breaking apart what you say.

No you're only twisting my words and using mental gymnastics... like a typical apologist.

Refer to the Cell arc once again, where Goku knew exactly what the outcome of their fight would be and he still decided to rush in anyway, whilst in Super he wasn't directly responsible for the consequences and he still has a way to revert everything back to how it was if he wins.

You're not making any sense now... I don't recall Goku in the Cell arc ever blindly rushing into a fight. In fact, he stayed idly on the lookout while Imperfect Cell was wrecking shit instead of just going in and fighting himself.

Take your own advice.

You mean he told Gohan about using rage 7 years after Gohan had already figured it out first hand? Not a really good example. And by making the same mistakes I mean letting people go and putting fairness and a good fight above getting rid of a threat right away. A mistake he made multiple times.

That was never made known to anyone but Gohan and Cell about Gohan knowing of his Goku's plan beforehand.

The moment he was told about the rule he showed regret and offered to fix it right away. They told him not to. It was later he told Gohan he heard an earful because of course he did. Goku and by extention us don't need to hear the blame game the whole episode. The responsible thing to do now would be to fight for his universe and try to fix it later. Which is something he know he can do if he wins.

Goku only offered to talk Zeno out of it after being told to take responsibility and again, nobody should have to die for a tournament.

And you think Goku would be unable to stop him because why? In fact what makes you think Vegeta would go through and do anything to provoke Goku into killing him? Now THAT would be dumb and out of character. I believe you claimed in another thread Original Goku never does anything without knowing what to expect. Well if he actually thought Vegeta was a threat to his friends, why would he let him live? That sounds very much like not caring about the lives of his friends by letting an alien with anger issues, who threatened them, run around freely.

A smart super hero like Goku would take care of Vegeta then hunt gero. By your logic Goku makes 2 mistakes here. Letting gero build death machines AND letting mr. "I'll kill your friends" do whatever.

Because while Vegeta is dangerous, he's still a valuable asset to the team and with a common enemy he could potentially redeem himself which in his first death showed is not beyond him. Vegeta threatened to kill them for not allowing him to fight the androids.

Also... the moral horizon in attacking Dr. Gero.

Except Goku very much functions in society in Super. Possibly even more so than in Z. Him not showing as much regret in one instance doesn't make a sociopath.

It's a sign of a sociopath if he doesn't care if gazillion people die as long as he gets a good fight and I don't think people who can function in society would not know what kissing is despite married for 20 years and having two kids or not care that one of his closest friends is pregnant (and not be there for his wife when they were pregnant).

[Boo Machine]

That was never made known to anyone but Gohan and Cell about Gohan knowing of his Goku's plan beforehand.

And? I'm unsure what you're trying to say here.

Goku only offered to talk Zeno out of it after being told to take responsibility and again, nobody should have to die for a tournament.

Yeah? Isn't that what we want him to do? Take responsibility? He tries but it's not good enough because he didn't do it correctly? It kind of sounds like nit picking now.

You're right. No one should have to die for a tourny. It's a good thing that was never Gokus intention.

Because while Vegeta is dangerous, he's still a valuable asset to the team and with a common enemy he could potentially redeem himself which in his first death showed is not beyond him. Vegeta threatened to kill them for not allowing him to fight the androids.

Also... the moral horizon in attacking Dr. Gero.

Yes, But you used Vegeta being a threat, to make the point of why they couldn't hunt gero. Which is it? Is Vegeta a threat that they need to take care of or a common ally they can count on in this scenario? He can't be both. It's easy to say it worked out in hindsight.

It's a sign of a sociopath if he doesn't care if gazillion people die as long as he gets a good fight and I don't think people who can function in society would not know what kissing is despite married for 20 years and having two kids or not care that one of his closest friends is pregnant (and not be there for his wife when they were pregnant).

I thought you said caring and showing concern wasn't a part of being a sociopath. Isn't that why you brush off my and others examples? But now not caring is a sign of being a sociopath?

Kissing or not isn't a determining factor that makes you a functioning member of society. That's just silly.

Why do you assume Goku is a master as taking care of pregnant women? Vegeta being there makes sense. It doesn't matter one way or the other if Goku is there. He isn't exactly a nurse. Call me crazy. I don't think most people watch Dragonball to see people go into labor. He tries to get Vegeta to come along, because he doesn't understand what it means for Vegeta to be there. That just makes him an idiot. Maybe An Insensitive dick even. Not a sociopath.