Super's Manga vs Super's Anime Discussion

[HeroR]

Stupid like him standing around for most of the Androids and Cell arc?

I don't think anything could treat Trunks worse than the Cell arc. "As soon as my first scene is done, I'm an utterly pointless addition!"

That is honestly why I never cared for Trunks. He had a cool moment with cutting Freeza to ribbons and clowning King Cold, then he does nothing for story afterwards. Even his 'cool' moment against Perfect Cell turning into a session of why Trunks is a greenhorn and he could have prevented Cell from being completed if it wasn't for his daddy issues. The Future Trunks Saga actually made me like Trunks.

I like them both for the Future Trunks arc but I do prefer the anime. I don't think one is good over the other as they both are the same in essence to what the Future Trunks arc is (Trunks goes back, stays in the present for a bit, goes back, Trunks stays in the future, they return to the future, Zamasu "loses" and then he unlocks hax for Zeno to show up and erase the future world) and they both have personal nit picks and chapters / episodes that I thought were flat out bad but nothing to hinder my enjoyment to both.

I didn't mind Future Trunks becoming the white mage for the party as he was both useful in that regard and as a fighter but I liked the journey to Ikari's transformation and its conclusion with the Final Hope Slash more for the sentimental value they had. I'm willing to call it an ass pull without trying to defend it for it being able to help Trunks keep up with the power of SSR Black but I can't hate it because of it being brought about to Trunk's and taking into consideration the context that is his life. I can't excuse it but this is not the first time I loved an ass pull in anime / manga. Trunks understanding of Goku and Vegeta's newfound power leads him to believe he has no reason to become stronger as he expects Goku and Vegeta to solve his problems for him and they make sure Trunks understands that by having Vegeta and kid Trunks call him out on his weaknesses. What I loved is how they lowkey in the end make it that it wasn't just Trunks power alone who defeated Zamasu but the future inhabitants as well with the help of his father and Goku. It was a joint effort I much appreciate. It proved to Trunks he does have the strength and he is not alone. People can ask what the point all of that was after his world was erased but it really does show hope has never been more important than it has during that. The idea that there is two Trunks and Mais bother me as a sore to the story but the fact there is a world where the future inhabitants don't have to remember Black or Zamasu's wrath would be worth it in my opinion.

I think I accidentally went ton a tangent but if I lived in a perfect world the executions that the manga and anime had would be combined.

Trunks being a white mage wasn't the problem since Dende in the Freeza Saga showed up how useful a healing can be for a group of fighters. He basically kept their butts alive until final form Freeza.

The problem was how it was done. Trunks didn't 'discovered' his healing power until near the end of the Merged Zamasu's fight, his first time reads like a retcon since Mai was unconscious for several days after Trunks supposedly healed her, and it had a stupid limit placed on it. Namely, he could only fully heal one Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan to full power, when no other healer had such a limit. He could have been the Future Trunks Saga Dende, but Toyo gimped the hell out of him before he could do anything.

[dragon boss z]

Basically, the manga is more consistent than the anime. Power is major in the series and in the manga, it’s kept consistent, whereas the anime, it’s all over the place. Gokuh and Vegeta are somewhat kept as equals in the manga but in the anime, Gokuh is always stronger in some way than Vegeta. Reintroducing Kaiohken back into the series messes everything up and becomes weird later as God is being reintroduced after Gokuh absorbed the power of God.

Goku never absorbed the god power into his base/ssj in the manga. So this isn't an inconsistency.

[LightBing]

Looking back now at people bashing the manga for "making Trunks a secondary/tertiary character in his own arc" is pretty funny.

Funny because?

It's not about an arbirtrary quota of screen/panel time...

Even if the Trunks bits he took are from Toei, it's his job to actually make them work as a story for Trunks since he put them into his manga either way or, if he is following the outline that closely, at the very least Goku.

The major beats are mostly shared between both mediums, but you can't expect it to work for Trunks due to his role as a more supportive character in the manga version. Hell, I think even Toyotaro noticed that since he made Vegeta be the one who caused Infinite Zamasu to escalate to the level where the cast can't possibly deal with.

Had Toyotaro actually gone into a different direction, maybe focusing properly on Goku instead of shoehorning him into the climax while actively going out of his to remove him of any potentially interesting situation throughout the story, there would be something worth discussing, but as with Trunks, his story beats that matter are pretty much identical between both versions (recklessness with the Mafuuba, calling Zeno to clear up the mess) and the character is borderline self contradictory on a chapter to chapter basis so... yeah, not much worth talking about here.

Funny because most of the bashing and I underline bashing, not providing a sensible and well thought out argument, was some sort of "Trunks shouldn't be a tertiary character in his own arc". When based on the recent interview Trunks role on Mr.Toriyama's outline is being irrelevant for most of the arc. It's only his arc because someone decided to name it like that.

[JazzMazz]

Goku had to predict Hit all over again [just like he did in base mode] because Hit is now stronger than Goku Blue when improving Time-Skip to 0.2 seconds.
When Goku went Blue against a Hit that was only 0.1 seconds He was shown punching and avoiding Hit before 0.1 seconds. Due to Goku being stronger in Blue.

The thing is though, they made a point that Hits form and battle power hadn't actually changed, it was merely his Time-skip that had improved, not his physical power. Also, there are no scenes showing Goku dodging Hits time-skip before it ended, in fact, quite the contrary is true, as it repeatedly shows Goku having attacks land on him during the time-skip. The only time his been shown to be avoiding Hits time-skip is in his base form when he manages to block Hits punches. Also, his never shown punching during Hits time-skip, only immediately afterwards, which plays into the idea that Goku is predicting and countering Hits movements.

Goku clearly stated Hit's power and speed increased when he increased Time skip to 0.2 seconds. The skip froze him completely and the blow in that 0.2 seconds state hurt Blue Goku badly.
While in 0.1 seconds the blows against Blue Goku were ineffective. We even see Goku punching Hit BEFORE he reaches Goku to attack when he uses Time skip in 0.1 seconds.
Cause Hit is weaker in 0.1 seconds and Time skip isn't fully working on Blue Goku due to him being able to move and attack Hit BEFORE Hit reaches him in 0.1 seconds.

Yeah, they make it pretty clearly that its mainly the time-skip technique that has improved, meaning that Hits attacks are now more effective since Goku can't predict them.
Yeah, he also does something exactly like that by blocking the time-skip before it reaches him. Are you saying that Vegeta in SSB is weaker than Base Goku simply because Goku was able to out-predict Hit time-skip which was stated multiple times to be what was happening.

Again, Goku wasn't moving within the time-skip, that was something that was never shown. He was only shown attacking at the end of the time-skip to counter-attack or block as was the case of his base form.

[Meshack]

Basically, the manga is more consistent than the anime. Power is major in the series and in the manga, it’s kept consistent, whereas the anime, it’s all over the place. Gokuh and Vegeta are somewhat kept as equals in the manga but in the anime, Gokuh is always stronger in some way than Vegeta. Reintroducing Kaiohken back into the series messes everything up and becomes weird later as God is being reintroduced after Gokuh absorbed the power of God.

Goku never absorbed the god power into his base/ssj in the manga. So this isn't an inconsistency.

I didn’t say he did do it in the manga...

[Meshack]

-Super Saiyan God return-

I've been complaining about the use of SSG in the manga since chapter 13. Now that the anime did the same thing, I will have to take it back.

Toyotaro's version flows much better in this regard unlike the anime where they brought back the form 4 arcs later. It's too long of absence.

Toei just took the only creative thing in the manga and put it in the anime, which is the switch on/off between SSG and SSB. I loved that in the manga and it's cool to see it in the anime.
I hope we get more of that. However I still think SSB+Kaioken is too much of badassery to get rid of, so what I would do is keep it in Champa arc and bring back SSG in FT Trunks arc.

As for Vegeta, I don't care if he has SSG or not. He doesn't need to have all the forms that Goku has. But if he gets it in the anime that will contradict with his decision of not wanting to go that route in the end of BOG arc. It could work as character development but some explanation would be necessary. While in the manga Toyotaro didn't explain how Vegeta got it, I can assume he just did the ritual off-screen which is also what I assumed before Super when we got ROF Movie.

Anyway, Toei and Toyotaro help each other and work together to come up with a better product would be much better than each one go different ways and do their own crazy stuff.

This is a problem I see all the time when people discuss the manga. They don’t read everything and pick out what they want. It is explained how Vegeta got God and it was because of his training in the Room.

Toyotaro never explained that. Vegeta realized he needed that form to fight Black, but it was never confirmed when he got it.
Super Saiyan God concept in BOG movie, DBS anime and DBS manga is linked to the ritual. It was never confirmed a Saiyan could unlock it through training, even if he had God Ki.

Goku wasn't also impressed by seeing Vegeta using SSG, which means he knew about it and Vegeta probably did the ritual off-screen before FT Trunks arc.

It’s pretty clear that Vegeta achieved God in the Room. He said he realized he needed the form to defeat Black and played with the idea that he discovered a new form

[dragon boss z]

Basically, the manga is more consistent than the anime. Power is major in the series and in the manga, it’s kept consistent, whereas the anime, it’s all over the place. Gokuh and Vegeta are somewhat kept as equals in the manga but in the anime, Gokuh is always stronger in some way than Vegeta. Reintroducing Kaiohken back into the series messes everything up and becomes weird later as God is being reintroduced after Gokuh absorbed the power of God.

Goku never absorbed the god power into his base/ssj in the manga. So this isn't an inconsistency.

I didn’t say he did do it in the manga...

Oh I misread it. I thought you were talking about the manga there.

[Miracles]

The thing is though, they made a point that Hits form and battle power hadn't actually changed, it was merely his Time-skip that had improved, not his physical power. Also, there are no scenes showing Goku dodging Hits time-skip before it ended, in fact, quite the contrary is true, as it repeatedly shows Goku having attacks land on him during the time-skip. The only time his been shown to be avoiding Hits time-skip is in his base form when he manages to block Hits punches. Also, his never shown punching during Hits time-skip, only immediately afterwards, which plays into the idea that Goku is predicting and countering Hits movements.

Goku clearly stated Hit's power and speed increased when he increased Time skip to 0.2 seconds. The skip froze him completely and the blow in that 0.2 seconds state hurt Blue Goku badly.
While in 0.1 seconds the blows against Blue Goku were ineffective. We even see Goku punching Hit BEFORE he reaches Goku to attack when he uses Time skip in 0.1 seconds.
Cause Hit is weaker in 0.1 seconds and Time skip isn't fully working on Blue Goku due to him being able to move and attack Hit BEFORE Hit reaches him in 0.1 seconds.

Yeah, they make it pretty clearly that its mainly the time-skip technique that has improved, meaning that Hits attacks are now more effective since Goku can't predict them.
Yeah, he also does something exactly like that by blocking the time-skip before it reaches him. Are you saying that Vegeta in SSB is weaker than Base Goku simply because Goku was able to out-predict Hit time-skip which was stated multiple times to be what was happening.

Again, Goku wasn't moving within the time-skip, that was something that was never shown. He was only shown attacking at the end of the time-skip to counter-attack or block as was the case of his base form.

Time skip completely stopped Blue Vegeta just like it did base Goku. Except base Goku was taking the same blows as a Blue Vegeta. Which proves Vegeta was fatigued just like the manga said. Either that or base Goku is just as strong as Vegeta Blue. Also, Hit's time stop didn't freeze Blue Goku for the full 0.1 seconds nor were his attacks effective cause he was stronger than Hit. Evidenced by the fact that Hit only grazed Goku before he reached him in 0.1 seconds cause Goku was moving to dodge Hit's punch before he could reach him. Unlike in his base mode where all Goku could do was be frozen during the time skip and predict where Hit will be THEN after the time skip he would just block then counter attack. It was only when Hit increased his skip to 0.2 could he fully freeze Goku and hurt Goku again. Goku even states himself that Hit's power and speed increased. Check it again.

[JazzMazz]

Goku clearly stated Hit's power and speed increased when he increased Time skip to 0.2 seconds. The skip froze him completely and the blow in that 0.2 seconds state hurt Blue Goku badly.
While in 0.1 seconds the blows against Blue Goku were ineffective. We even see Goku punching Hit BEFORE he reaches Goku to attack when he uses Time skip in 0.1 seconds.
Cause Hit is weaker in 0.1 seconds and Time skip isn't fully working on Blue Goku due to him being able to move and attack Hit BEFORE Hit reaches him in 0.1 seconds.

Yeah, they make it pretty clearly that its mainly the time-skip technique that has improved, meaning that Hits attacks are now more effective since Goku can't predict them.
Yeah, he also does something exactly like that by blocking the time-skip before it reaches him. Are you saying that Vegeta in SSB is weaker than Base Goku simply because Goku was able to out-predict Hit time-skip which was stated multiple times to be what was happening.

Again, Goku wasn't moving within the time-skip, that was something that was never shown. He was only shown attacking at the end of the time-skip to counter-attack or block as was the case of his base form.

Time skip completely stopped Blue Vegeta just like it did base Goku. Except base Goku was taking the same blows as a Blue Vegeta. Which proves Vegeta was fatigued just like the manga said. Either that or base Goku is just as strong as Vegeta Blue. Also, Hit's time stop didn't freeze Blue Goku for the full 0.1 seconds nor were his attacks effective cause he was stronger than Hit. Evidenced by the fact that Hit only grazed Goku before he reached him in 0.1 seconds cause Goku was moving to dodge Hit's punch before he could reach him. Unlike in his base mode where all Goku could do was be frozen during the time skip and predict where Hit will be THEN after the time skip he would just block then counter attack. It was only when Hit increased his skip to 0.2 could he fully freeze Goku and hurt Goku again. Goku even states himself that Hit's power and speed increased. Check it again.

I find the idea that Vegeta was super weakened in the anime proposterous, otherwise why would he was surprised he couldn't even scratch Hit in Blue despite knowing recognizing Hits strength. The Vegeta beatdown is clearly shown to demonstrate how effective a technique Hits time-skip is, and unlike the manga, the anime doesn't undermine the importance of that fight by throwing in that stupid "less than 10%" line. That simply doesn't exist in the anime.

Goku beating Hits 0.1 second time-skip in the anime is placed entirely down to Goku anticipating Hits movement. Also, you keep on using the first instance of Goku being grazed by Hits punch but I really don't see how this proves your point, if Goku could block his attacks in base, his sure as hell going to be able to counter, thats the whole of point of the fight. Goku is outmanoeuvring Hit by anticipating his movements 0.1 seconds ahead of time and then countering. The only difference between how his fighting in base and as Blue is that as Blue his going for counters directly after timeskip instead of blocking and attacking afterwards. In other words, he went from being on the defensive in base to going on a full on offensive. Thats it, there is no grand conspiracy here that suggests the manga and anime were showcasing the same idea when Goku was in fighting in Blue, they are just completely different interpretations of Toriyama's draft.

[Miracles]

Yeah, they make it pretty clearly that its mainly the time-skip technique that has improved, meaning that Hits attacks are now more effective since Goku can't predict them.
Yeah, he also does something exactly like that by blocking the time-skip before it reaches him. Are you saying that Vegeta in SSB is weaker than Base Goku simply because Goku was able to out-predict Hit time-skip which was stated multiple times to be what was happening.

Again, Goku wasn't moving within the time-skip, that was something that was never shown. He was only shown attacking at the end of the time-skip to counter-attack or block as was the case of his base form.

Time skip completely stopped Blue Vegeta just like it did base Goku. Except base Goku was taking the same blows as a Blue Vegeta. Which proves Vegeta was fatigued just like the manga said. Either that or base Goku is just as strong as Vegeta Blue. Also, Hit's time stop didn't freeze Blue Goku for the full 0.1 seconds nor were his attacks effective cause he was stronger than Hit. Evidenced by the fact that Hit only grazed Goku before he reached him in 0.1 seconds cause Goku was moving to dodge Hit's punch before he could reach him. Unlike in his base mode where all Goku could do was be frozen during the time skip and predict where Hit will be THEN after the time skip he would just block then counter attack. It was only when Hit increased his skip to 0.2 could he fully freeze Goku and hurt Goku again. Goku even states himself that Hit's power and speed increased. Check it again.

I find the idea that Vegeta was super weakened in the anime proposterous, otherwise why would he was surprised he couldn't even scratch Hit in Blue despite knowing recognizing Hits strength. The Vegeta beatdown is clearly shown to demonstrate how effective a technique Hits time-skip is, and unlike the manga, the anime doesn't undermine the importance of that fight by throwing in that stupid "less than 10%" line. That simply doesn't exist in the anime.

Goku beating Hits 0.1 second time-skip in the anime is placed entirely down to Goku anticipating Hits movement. Also, you keep on using the first instance of Goku being grazed by Hits punch but I really don't see how this proves your point, if Goku could block his attacks in base, his sure as hell going to be able to counter, thats the whole of point of the fight. Goku is outmanoeuvring Hit by anticipating his movements 0.1 seconds ahead of time and then countering. The only difference between how his fighting in base and as Blue is that as Blue his going for counters directly after timeskip instead of blocking and attacking afterwards. In other words, he went from being on the defensive in base to going on a full on offensive. Thats it, there is no grand conspiracy here that suggests the manga and anime were showcasing the same idea when Goku was in fighting in Blue, they are just completely different interpretations of Toriyama's draft.

If Blue Goku is going for counters "directly" after time-skip, he should of been punched in the face instead of being only grazed by Hit due to him dodging and punching Hit in the gut BEFORE he punches him.
This shows Blue Goku was moving before 0.1 seconds. Due to Time-skip being shortened. Hit couldn't reach Blue Goku in time to fully connect in 0.1 seconds like against base Goku due to Blue being more powerful. Also, Vegeta was greatly fatigued, Goku even states that he won't transform into Blue immediately cause of heavy stamina drain in the anime too. It's either that or Base Goku is just as strong as Blue Vegeta in the anime. The anime and manga are showcasing the same things.

[JazzMazz]

Time skip completely stopped Blue Vegeta just like it did base Goku. Except base Goku was taking the same blows as a Blue Vegeta. Which proves Vegeta was fatigued just like the manga said. Either that or base Goku is just as strong as Vegeta Blue. Also, Hit's time stop didn't freeze Blue Goku for the full 0.1 seconds nor were his attacks effective cause he was stronger than Hit. Evidenced by the fact that Hit only grazed Goku before he reached him in 0.1 seconds cause Goku was moving to dodge Hit's punch before he could reach him. Unlike in his base mode where all Goku could do was be frozen during the time skip and predict where Hit will be THEN after the time skip he would just block then counter attack. It was only when Hit increased his skip to 0.2 could he fully freeze Goku and hurt Goku again. Goku even states himself that Hit's power and speed increased. Check it again.

I find the idea that Vegeta was super weakened in the anime proposterous, otherwise why would he was surprised he couldn't even scratch Hit in Blue despite knowing recognizing Hits strength. The Vegeta beatdown is clearly shown to demonstrate how effective a technique Hits time-skip is, and unlike the manga, the anime doesn't undermine the importance of that fight by throwing in that stupid "less than 10%" line. That simply doesn't exist in the anime.

Goku beating Hits 0.1 second time-skip in the anime is placed entirely down to Goku anticipating Hits movement. Also, you keep on using the first instance of Goku being grazed by Hits punch but I really don't see how this proves your point, if Goku could block his attacks in base, his sure as hell going to be able to counter, thats the whole of point of the fight. Goku is outmanoeuvring Hit by anticipating his movements 0.1 seconds ahead of time and then countering. The only difference between how his fighting in base and as Blue is that as Blue his going for counters directly after timeskip instead of blocking and attacking afterwards. In other words, he went from being on the defensive in base to going on a full on offensive. Thats it, there is no grand conspiracy here that suggests the manga and anime were showcasing the same idea when Goku was in fighting in Blue, they are just completely different interpretations of Toriyama's draft.

If Blue Goku is going for counters "directly" after time-skip, he should of been punched in the face instead of being only grazed by Hit due to him dodging and punching Hit in the gut BEFORE he punches him.
This shows Blue Goku was moving before 0.1 seconds. Due to Time-skip being shortened. Hit couldn't reach Blue Goku in time to fully connect in 0.1 seconds like against base Goku due to Blue being more powerful. Also, Vegeta was greatly fatigued, Goku even states that he won't transform into Blue immediately cause of heavy stamina drain in the anime too. It's either that or Base Goku is just as strong as Blue Vegeta in the anime. The anime and manga are showcasing the same things.

Goku was able to punch Hit in the gut for the same reason he was able to block in base form, he was already aware where Hit was going to be and had taken measures to reach it in advance, and even despite that, he still got grazed by Hit. Again, there is no evidence that Vegeta was that much weaker in Blue. Though the anime says Blue apparently has stamina issues, but its never shown how it has stamina issues and transforming in and out of the form doesn't have any re-precussions in the anime, so I have no idea how Vegeta could become so fatigued that it would be easier to fight in his base form without his knowledge.

They state multiple times in the anime that Goku is anticipating Hits movements and nothing in the show suggests that point that Hits time-skip had gotten any shorter, in fact, its not even implied that its grown any less. If and when it did become ineffective Hit noticed and responded to it with shock in the anime.

The anime and manga are different interpretations of Toriyama's draft, Goku does break through Hits time-skip in both though, however he only does that in the anime when he goes Kaio-ken times 10, to which Hit is completely shocked by. Its kind of further evidence against your case, since Hit wasn't surprised by Goku countering his time-skip in Blue, in fact he kind of expected it because he already knew the strategy that Goku was employing. However, when Goku goes SSBKK10 he actually is surprised when his time-skip is broken, which suggests that hasn't happened up to that point. Its only through your massive jumps in logics to try and tie two completely different works together when the correlation doesn't exist at that point.

[Miracles]

I find the idea that Vegeta was super weakened in the anime proposterous, otherwise why would he was surprised he couldn't even scratch Hit in Blue despite knowing recognizing Hits strength. The Vegeta beatdown is clearly shown to demonstrate how effective a technique Hits time-skip is, and unlike the manga, the anime doesn't undermine the importance of that fight by throwing in that stupid "less than 10%" line. That simply doesn't exist in the anime.

Goku beating Hits 0.1 second time-skip in the anime is placed entirely down to Goku anticipating Hits movement. Also, you keep on using the first instance of Goku being grazed by Hits punch but I really don't see how this proves your point, if Goku could block his attacks in base, his sure as hell going to be able to counter, thats the whole of point of the fight. Goku is outmanoeuvring Hit by anticipating his movements 0.1 seconds ahead of time and then countering. The only difference between how his fighting in base and as Blue is that as Blue his going for counters directly after timeskip instead of blocking and attacking afterwards. In other words, he went from being on the defensive in base to going on a full on offensive. Thats it, there is no grand conspiracy here that suggests the manga and anime were showcasing the same idea when Goku was in fighting in Blue, they are just completely different interpretations of Toriyama's draft.

If Blue Goku is going for counters "directly" after time-skip, he should of been punched in the face instead of being only grazed by Hit due to him dodging and punching Hit in the gut BEFORE he punches him.
This shows Blue Goku was moving before 0.1 seconds. Due to Time-skip being shortened. Hit couldn't reach Blue Goku in time to fully connect in 0.1 seconds like against base Goku due to Blue being more powerful. Also, Vegeta was greatly fatigued, Goku even states that he won't transform into Blue immediately cause of heavy stamina drain in the anime too. It's either that or Base Goku is just as strong as Blue Vegeta in the anime. The anime and manga are showcasing the same things.

Goku was able to punch Hit in the gut for the same reason he was able to block in base form, he was already aware where Hit was going to be and had taken measures to reach it in advance, and even despite that, he still got grazed by Hit. Again, there is no evidence that Vegeta was that much weaker in Blue. Though the anime says Blue apparently has stamina issues, but its never shown how it has stamina issues and transforming in and out of the form doesn't have any re-precussions in the anime, so I have no idea how Vegeta could become so fatigued that it would be easier to fight in his base form without his knowledge.

They state multiple times in the anime that Goku is anticipating Hits movements and nothing in the show suggests that point that Hits time-skip had gotten any shorter, in fact, its not even implied that its grown any less. If and when it did become ineffective Hit noticed and responded to it with shock in the anime.

The anime and manga are different interpretations of Toriyama's draft, Goku does break through Hits time-skip in both though, however he only does that in the anime when he goes Kaio-ken times 10, to which Hit is completely shocked by. Its kind of further evidence against your case, since Hit wasn't surprised by Goku countering his time-skip in Blue, in fact he kind of expected it because he already knew the strategy that Goku was employing. However, when Goku goes SSBKK10 he actually is surprised when his time-skip is broken, which suggests that hasn't happened up to that point. Its only through your massive jumps in logics to try and tie two completely different works together when the correlation doesn't exist at that point.

In the manga we see Hit closing in on Red Goku yet he can't connect his attack. Hit states that his time skip was shortened less than 0.1 seconds due to Goku being stronger. It is the same concept in the anime when we see Hit not reaching Goku in 0.1 seconds. It shows Goku is moving before Hit reaches him. Evidenced by Hit's attack only grazing him and not fully connecting. Goku wasn't moving AFTER Hit got there in 0.1 seconds after the Time Skip he was moving before 0.1 seconds. This shows Hit was not freezing Goku for the full 0.1 seconds when he went Blue cause he was stronger than Hit. BTW, in the anime, Goku stated that transforming into Blue drains stamina HEAVILY against Hit. So yes, transforming has repercussions in the anime too.

[FortuneSSJ]

Toyotaro never explained that. Vegeta realized he needed that form to fight Black, but it was never confirmed when he got it.
Super Saiyan God concept in BOG movie, DBS anime and DBS manga is linked to the ritual. It was never confirmed a Saiyan could unlock it through training, even if he had God Ki.

Goku wasn't also impressed by seeing Vegeta using SSG, which means he knew about it and Vegeta probably did the ritual off-screen before FT Trunks arc.

It’s pretty clear that Vegeta achieved God in the Room. He said he realized he needed the form to defeat Black and played with the idea that he discovered a new form

If it was pretty clear we wouldn't be having this discussion.
You're just filling the gaps with your explanation. I already said above that's not how SSG is confirmed to get unlocked. The only thing confirmed is that Vegeta trained his power and stamina in order to switch on and off between SSG and SSB so many times.

I can also say SS Ikari in the anime is a close stage to SSB, because of the blue aura and how FT Trunks being fighting with Gods (SSB Goku, SSB Vegeta, SSR Black and Future Zamasu) somehow made him tap into God ki. Plus the fact he's a hybrid and hybrids always showed to have more potential than full blooded Saiyans. But that's my explanation, not an official one. There's nothing officially confirmed and I'm just doing the same thing than you - Filling the gaps with my explanation.

[Meshack]

Toyotaro never explained that. Vegeta realized he needed that form to fight Black, but it was never confirmed when he got it.
Super Saiyan God concept in BOG movie, DBS anime and DBS manga is linked to the ritual. It was never confirmed a Saiyan could unlock it through training, even if he had God Ki.

Goku wasn't also impressed by seeing Vegeta using SSG, which means he knew about it and Vegeta probably did the ritual off-screen before FT Trunks arc.

It’s pretty clear that Vegeta achieved God in the Room. He said he realized he needed the form to defeat Black and played with the idea that he discovered a new form

If it was pretty clear we wouldn't be having this discussion.
You're just filling the gaps with your explanation. I already said above that's not how SSG is confirmed to get unlocked. The only thing confirmed is that Vegeta trained his power and stamina in order to switch on and off between SSG and SSB so many times.

I can also say SS Ikari in the anime is a close stage to SSB, because of the blue aura and how FT Trunks being fighting with Gods (SSB Goku, SSB Vegeta, SSR Black and Future Zamasu) somehow made him tap into God ki. Plus the fact he's a hybrid and hybrids always showed to have more potential than full blooded Saiyans. But that's my explanation, not an official one. There's nothing officially confirmed and I'm just doing the same thing than you - Filling the gaps with my explanation.

Vegeta already had God Ki so it makes sense for him to be able to achieve it in the Room

[Meshack]

Yeah, they make it pretty clearly that its mainly the time-skip technique that has improved, meaning that Hits attacks are now more effective since Goku can't predict them.
Yeah, he also does something exactly like that by blocking the time-skip before it reaches him. Are you saying that Vegeta in SSB is weaker than Base Goku simply because Goku was able to out-predict Hit time-skip which was stated multiple times to be what was happening.

Again, Goku wasn't moving within the time-skip, that was something that was never shown. He was only shown attacking at the end of the time-skip to counter-attack or block as was the case of his base form.

Time skip completely stopped Blue Vegeta just like it did base Goku. Except base Goku was taking the same blows as a Blue Vegeta. Which proves Vegeta was fatigued just like the manga said. Either that or base Goku is just as strong as Vegeta Blue. Also, Hit's time stop didn't freeze Blue Goku for the full 0.1 seconds nor were his attacks effective cause he was stronger than Hit. Evidenced by the fact that Hit only grazed Goku before he reached him in 0.1 seconds cause Goku was moving to dodge Hit's punch before he could reach him. Unlike in his base mode where all Goku could do was be frozen during the time skip and predict where Hit will be THEN after the time skip he would just block then counter attack. It was only when Hit increased his skip to 0.2 could he fully freeze Goku and hurt Goku again. Goku even states himself that Hit's power and speed increased. Check it again.

I find the idea that Vegeta was super weakened in the anime proposterous, otherwise why would he was surprised he couldn't even scratch Hit in Blue despite knowing recognizing Hits strength. The Vegeta beatdown is clearly shown to demonstrate how effective a technique Hits time-skip is, and unlike the manga, the anime doesn't undermine the importance of that fight by throwing in that stupid "less than 10%" line. That simply doesn't exist in the anime.

Goku beating Hits 0.1 second time-skip in the anime is placed entirely down to Goku anticipating Hits movement. Also, you keep on using the first instance of Goku being grazed by Hits punch but I really don't see how this proves your point, if Goku could block his attacks in base, his sure as hell going to be able to counter, thats the whole of point of the fight. Goku is outmanoeuvring Hit by anticipating his movements 0.1 seconds ahead of time and then countering. The only difference between how his fighting in base and as Blue is that as Blue his going for counters directly after timeskip instead of blocking and attacking afterwards. In other words, he went from being on the defensive in base to going on a full on offensive. Thats it, there is no grand conspiracy here that suggests the manga and anime were showcasing the same idea when Goku was in fighting in Blue, they are just completely different interpretations of Toriyama's draft.

Did you forget that Hit used Tokitobashi to dodge Gokuh’s Kamehameha even though he said he wouldn’t be able to do another one after he used his full power? You do you know Gid Gokuh was stronger than Blue Vegeta, right?

[JazzMazz]

If Blue Goku is going for counters "directly" after time-skip, he should of been punched in the face instead of being only grazed by Hit due to him dodging and punching Hit in the gut BEFORE he punches him.
This shows Blue Goku was moving before 0.1 seconds. Due to Time-skip being shortened. Hit couldn't reach Blue Goku in time to fully connect in 0.1 seconds like against base Goku due to Blue being more powerful. Also, Vegeta was greatly fatigued, Goku even states that he won't transform into Blue immediately cause of heavy stamina drain in the anime too. It's either that or Base Goku is just as strong as Blue Vegeta in the anime. The anime and manga are showcasing the same things.

Goku was able to punch Hit in the gut for the same reason he was able to block in base form, he was already aware where Hit was going to be and had taken measures to reach it in advance, and even despite that, he still got grazed by Hit. Again, there is no evidence that Vegeta was that much weaker in Blue. Though the anime says Blue apparently has stamina issues, but its never shown how it has stamina issues and transforming in and out of the form doesn't have any re-precussions in the anime, so I have no idea how Vegeta could become so fatigued that it would be easier to fight in his base form without his knowledge.

They state multiple times in the anime that Goku is anticipating Hits movements and nothing in the show suggests that point that Hits time-skip had gotten any shorter, in fact, its not even implied that its grown any less. If and when it did become ineffective Hit noticed and responded to it with shock in the anime.

The anime and manga are different interpretations of Toriyama's draft, Goku does break through Hits time-skip in both though, however he only does that in the anime when he goes Kaio-ken times 10, to which Hit is completely shocked by. Its kind of further evidence against your case, since Hit wasn't surprised by Goku countering his time-skip in Blue, in fact he kind of expected it because he already knew the strategy that Goku was employing. However, when Goku goes SSBKK10 he actually is surprised when his time-skip is broken, which suggests that hasn't happened up to that point. Its only through your massive jumps in logics to try and tie two completely different works together when the correlation doesn't exist at that point.

In the manga we see Hit closing in on Red Goku yet he can't connect his attack. Hit states that his time skip was shortened less than 0.1 seconds due to goku being stronger. It is the same concept in the anime when we see Hit not reaching Goku in 0.1 seconds. It shows Goku is moving before Hit reaches him. Evidenced by Hit's attack only grazing him and not fully connecting. This shows Hit was not freezing Goku for the full 0.1 seconds when he went Blue cause he was stronger than Hit. BTW, in the anime, Goku stated that transforming into Blue drains stamina HEAVILY against Hit. So yes, transforming has repercussions in the anime too.

Do you know what the manga shows? Goku counter attacking Hit in Super Saiyan. By your idea, all of Hits attacks should connect in 0.1 seconds, however, neither the anime nor manga explicitly state that Hit lands always lands his attacks in that time-period, if he did, Goku wouldn't have been able to block his assault using prediction in his base form as he would have already been punched by the time he acted.

Hit is freezing Goku in place for 0.1 seconds in the anime when Goku is SSB. However, Goku's anticipation of Hits movements allow him to land blows on Hit directly after his time-skip even before Hit, because he is the faster fighter and he can predict exactly where Hit will be. Its the same thing that happened in his base form when he was able to catch Hit off-guard. In other words, Hits attack don't always land in the 0.1 second time-period, thats how Goku is able to reach Hit before his attack can fully land directly after Time-skip. There is no grounding in your idea that since Goku is stronger Hits timeskip must have been shortened. It doesn't even make since in the context of using the manga since Hits time-skip works on fighters weaker, equal or slightly greater than him, which Blue fits the animes idea that Hit is only slightly weaker than Goku in SSB.

Never in the anime is it shown that SSB Goku is moving during Hit's timeskip, you say thats its shown that SSB Goku is shown moving before Hit can reach him, but thats also true in the manga when Hit fights SS Goku and in the anime where Hits attack don't reach Goku in his base form.

In the anime they state that Blue drains stamina but they don't specifiy how it drains stamina or what effects using the form has. So up until something concrete is shown there is no basis to assume that Vegeta is so much weaker that his comparable to Goku's base form.
[/quote]
Did you forget that Hit used Tokitobashi to dodge Gokuh’s Kamehameha even though he said he wouldn’t be able to do another one after he used his full power? You do you know Gid Gokuh was stronger than Blue Vegeta, right?[/quote]
Was it ever stated or shown that he used the Tokitobashi to dodge the Kamehameha? Because otherwise thats just your personal headcanon of events.

[Miracles]

Goku was able to punch Hit in the gut for the same reason he was able to block in base form, he was already aware where Hit was going to be and had taken measures to reach it in advance, and even despite that, he still got grazed by Hit. Again, there is no evidence that Vegeta was that much weaker in Blue. Though the anime says Blue apparently has stamina issues, but its never shown how it has stamina issues and transforming in and out of the form doesn't have any re-precussions in the anime, so I have no idea how Vegeta could become so fatigued that it would be easier to fight in his base form without his knowledge.

They state multiple times in the anime that Goku is anticipating Hits movements and nothing in the show suggests that point that Hits time-skip had gotten any shorter, in fact, its not even implied that its grown any less. If and when it did become ineffective Hit noticed and responded to it with shock in the anime.

The anime and manga are different interpretations of Toriyama's draft, Goku does break through Hits time-skip in both though, however he only does that in the anime when he goes Kaio-ken times 10, to which Hit is completely shocked by. Its kind of further evidence against your case, since Hit wasn't surprised by Goku countering his time-skip in Blue, in fact he kind of expected it because he already knew the strategy that Goku was employing. However, when Goku goes SSBKK10 he actually is surprised when his time-skip is broken, which suggests that hasn't happened up to that point. Its only through your massive jumps in logics to try and tie two completely different works together when the correlation doesn't exist at that point.

In the manga we see Hit closing in on Red Goku yet he can't connect his attack. Hit states that his time skip was shortened less than 0.1 seconds due to goku being stronger. It is the same concept in the anime when we see Hit not reaching Goku in 0.1 seconds. It shows Goku is moving before Hit reaches him. Evidenced by Hit's attack only grazing him and not fully connecting. This shows Hit was not freezing Goku for the full 0.1 seconds when he went Blue cause he was stronger than Hit. BTW, in the anime, Goku stated that transforming into Blue drains stamina HEAVILY against Hit. So yes, transforming has repercussions in the anime too.

Do you know what the manga shows? Goku counter attacking Hit in Super Saiyan. By your idea, all of Hits attacks should connect in 0.1 seconds, however, neither the anime nor manga explicitly state that Hit lands always lands his attacks in that time-period, if he did, Goku wouldn't have been able to block his assault using prediction in his base form as he would have already been punched by the time he acted.

Hit is freezing Goku in place for 0.1 seconds in the anime when Goku is SSB. However, Goku's anticipation of Hits movements allow him to land blows on Hit directly after his time-skip even before Hit, because he is the faster fighter and he can predict exactly where Hit will be. Its the same thing that happened in his base form when he was able to catch Hit off-guard. In other words, Hits attack don't always land in the 0.1 second time-period, thats how Goku is able to reach Hit before his attack can fully land directly after Time-skip. There is no grounding in your idea that since Goku is stronger Hits timeskip must have been shortened. It doesn't even make since in the context of using the manga since Hits time-skip works on fighters weaker, equal or slightly greater than him, which Blue fits the animes idea that Hit is only slightly weaker than Goku in SSB.

Never in the anime is it shown that SSB Goku is moving during Hit's timeskip, you say thats its shown that SSB Goku is shown moving before Hit can reach him, but thats also true in the manga when Hit fights SS Goku and in the anime where Hits attack don't reach Goku in his base form.

In the anime they state that Blue drains stamina but they don't specifiy how it drains stamina or what effects using the form has. So up until something concrete is shown there is no basis to assume that Vegeta is so much weaker that his comparable to Goku's base form.

Base Goku taking the same blows as Blue Vegeta is preposterous and the other official canon source; manga, gave an explanation for that.
Both the anime and manga state Goku predicts Hit's movements IN 0.1 seconds. Meaning, Hit does his attack AFTER the 0.1 seconds.
This proves the anime's showing even more that Blue Goku being grazed by Hit and punching him BEFORE he reaches him in 0.1 seconds is Time skip being shortened less than 0.1 seconds due to Goku being stronger.

[Meshack]

I think people expect Blue to win in the end due to what happened previously with Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan 2. Even with Super Saiyan 2, Gohan was about to lose against Cell if it wasn’t for Vegeta that drawed Cell’s attention away. I like that Toyotarou gave a significant drain on Blue. It’s explained in the Trunks Arc that using Blue draws out enormous ki so that drains the stamina of someone like 3 did.

[KuririnNoKotoKa]

Looking back now at people bashing the manga for "making Trunks a secondary/tertiary character in his own arc" is pretty funny.

Funny because?

It's not about an arbirtrary quota of screen/panel time...

Even if the Trunks bits he took are from Toei, it's his job to actually make them work as a story for Trunks since he put them into his manga either way or, if he is following the outline that closely, at the very least Goku.

The major beats are mostly shared between both mediums, but you can't expect it to work for Trunks due to his role as a more supportive character in the manga version. Hell, I think even Toyotaro noticed that since he made Vegeta be the one who caused Infinite Zamasu to escalate to the level where the cast can't possibly deal with.

Had Toyotaro actually gone into a different direction, maybe focusing properly on Goku instead of shoehorning him into the climax while actively going out of his to remove him of any potentially interesting situation throughout the story, there would be something worth discussing, but as with Trunks, his story beats that matter are pretty much identical between both versions (recklessness with the Mafuuba, calling Zeno to clear up the mess) and the character is borderline self contradictory on a chapter to chapter basis so... yeah, not much worth talking about here.

Funny because most of the bashing and I underline bashing, not providing a sensible and well thought out argument, was some sort of "Trunks shouldn't be a tertiary character in his own arc". When based on the recent interview Trunks role on Mr.Toriyama's outline is being irrelevant for most of the arc. It's only his arc because someone decided to name it like that.

I think you are being a bit too literal here. It's not Trunks' arc because it's named as such, it's his arc because:

• It's his world that is in peril;
• He is the one who has the only significant losses;
• Toriyama very clearly intented for him to have some direct role with regards to fighting, seeing as his OP SS2 is present in both versions;
• He is the one that makes the sacrifice for Goku and Vegeta to go back to the past and come up with a plan to handle Black & Zamasu;
• He is the one that effectively dooms his own world;
• The finale of the arc, unlike the Cell arc where Trunks' farewell is more of a formality than anything, relies completely on Trunks to function, not on Goku and Vegeta.

Yes, the "It should focus on Trunks because it's named FT arc" is too reductive to be accepted as a proper critique, but it's far from completely unfounded.

[TheMikado]

Funny because?

It's not about an arbirtrary quota of screen/panel time...

Even if the Trunks bits he took are from Toei, it's his job to actually make them work as a story for Trunks since he put them into his manga either way or, if he is following the outline that closely, at the very least Goku.

The major beats are mostly shared between both mediums, but you can't expect it to work for Trunks due to his role as a more supportive character in the manga version. Hell, I think even Toyotaro noticed that since he made Vegeta be the one who caused Infinite Zamasu to escalate to the level where the cast can't possibly deal with.

Had Toyotaro actually gone into a different direction, maybe focusing properly on Goku instead of shoehorning him into the climax while actively going out of his to remove him of any potentially interesting situation throughout the story, there would be something worth discussing, but as with Trunks, his story beats that matter are pretty much identical between both versions (recklessness with the Mafuuba, calling Zeno to clear up the mess) and the character is borderline self contradictory on a chapter to chapter basis so... yeah, not much worth talking about here.

Funny because most of the bashing and I underline bashing, not providing a sensible and well thought out argument, was some sort of "Trunks shouldn't be a tertiary character in his own arc". When based on the recent interview Trunks role on Mr.Toriyama's outline is being irrelevant for most of the arc. It's only his arc because someone decided to name it like that.

I think you are being a bit too literal here. It's not Trunks' arc because it's named as such, it's his arc because:

• It's his world that is in peril;
• He is the one who has the only significant losses;
• Toriyama very clearly intented for him to have some direct role with regards to fighting, seeing as his OP SS2 is present in both versions;
• He is the one that makes the sacrifice for Goku and Vegeta to go back to the past and come up with a plan to handle Black & Zamasu;
• He is the one that effectively dooms his own world;
• The finale of the arc, unlike the Cell arc where Trunks' farewell is more of a formality than anything, relies completely on Trunks to function, not on Goku and Vegeta.

Yes, the "It should focus on Trunks because it's named FT arc" is too reductive to be accepted as a proper critique, but it's far from completely unfounded.

I still fail to see how in the larger point the complaints of Future Trunks involvement "in his own arc" have any credibility to them when he had no main roles beyond support to being with.
Let's not forget the history of the "Future Trunks" arc
Where the suggestion came from editors to include Trunks.
Toriyama obliges and apparently makes a role that barely extends beyond starting the chain of events.
Someone in marketing runs with it and names the arc "Future Trunks" arc to further sell it in according with the request to include him in the first place.
Fans become discontented to find Trunks is not relevant in his "own arc" which from by all accounts wasn't Toriyama's intention or idea to begin with, certainly didn't name it as such, and definitely did not have as large a role as what was presented in the anime. But we all know Trunks ranks well in character popularity....