Super's Manga vs Super's Anime Discussion

[sintzu]

Lets face it is not that interesting comparing U6 anime to manga.

At first it wasn't that different but the site blew up when Goku showed SsjG so although there weren't as many changes, what we got was still just as interesting.

[wolflonnie]

I feel like the only real problem the FT version of the anime is the number of unexplained things Trunks does.
I'm fine with SSRage, but they did exaggerate a bit with the Genki-Sword. Would have been better if Vegetto had more impact, Goku & Vegeta dealt some form of damage to Merged Zamasu, and then Trunks joined in, without the Genki-Sword. Exaggerating is, most of the times, bad.
The manga is pretty cool but I largely prefer the anime version. I even re-watched it one time with my girlfriend (who never watched any DB but loved the ark). We didn't much like just the final moments.

[perucho1990]

By explanation, I mean as to what exactly the form is. We know how Black got Rose in the anime, but not what Rose is in the anime. It's like SSRage. We know Trunks got it by being really angry, but we have no clue what it is beyond theories. The only difference is one gets an explanation in the manga and the other doesn't.

As for the Trunks thing, Black was pretty much toying with/torturing him. But when Black was finally going to finish it off with a giant energy ball, Gowasu came and teleported them away. I wouldn't argue that's bad power scaling, but I'll admit SS Black vs SSB Vegeta right before Black turns Rose is.

Anime SSJRose: Blacks final form after mastering Gokus power, he was thanking Goku for reaching "the pinnacle of beauty" iirc. Thats the explanation, unlike IKari which got no explanation.

[Miracles]

The thing is though, it isn't demonstrating that, in fact, it isn't even implied. Your evidence is paper thin and completely insubstantial. Hits time-skip works on Goku in the anime for 0.1 seconds, however, since Goku is predicting his movements to counter Hit had to improve his time skip to 0.2 seconds and on and on. Never in those sections of the fight was it even slightly implied, even visually, that Goku's power as an SSB was reducing Hits time-skip.

Thats just a head-canon you created to create a non-existent correlation between the two.

It isn't headcannon when Goku is SHOWN DODGING Hit's attack AND punching him BEFORE Hit reaches Goku to attack in 0.1 seconds.
You don't need prediction for that. That's just shows Goku being physically superior to Hit.

Again, it isn't shown in the anime that his dodging Hits punches before .1 seconds have passed.

The entire point of that fight is that Goku is out-predicting Hit, thats why Hit improves his time-skip to 0.2 seconds. Goku's plan when that does happen at that point isn't "I'm going to power up more", it was "I'm going to endure a few of your Hits to get used to your movements at 0.2 seconds."

Its never shown that Goku is breaking Hits time-skip in regular Blue. His only outfighting Hit because his predicting his movements after Time-skip and countering, which is allowing him to outfight Hit.

Also, if we want to continue this conversation, I think your next post should quote me in the manga vs anime thread.

Goku had to predict Hit all over again [just like he did in base mode] because Hit is now stronger than Goku Blue when improving Time-Skip to 0.2 seconds.
When Goku went Blue against a Hit that was only 0.1 seconds He was shown punching and avoiding Hit before 0.1 seconds. Due to Goku being stronger in Blue.

[JazzMazz]

It isn't headcannon when Goku is SHOWN DODGING Hit's attack AND punching him BEFORE Hit reaches Goku to attack in 0.1 seconds.
You don't need prediction for that. That's just shows Goku being physically superior to Hit.

Again, it isn't shown in the anime that his dodging Hits punches before .1 seconds have passed.

The entire point of that fight is that Goku is out-predicting Hit, thats why Hit improves his time-skip to 0.2 seconds. Goku's plan when that does happen at that point isn't "I'm going to power up more", it was "I'm going to endure a few of your Hits to get used to your movements at 0.2 seconds."

Its never shown that Goku is breaking Hits time-skip in regular Blue. His only outfighting Hit because his predicting his movements after Time-skip and countering, which is allowing him to outfight Hit.

Also, if we want to continue this conversation, I think your next post should quote me in the manga vs anime thread.

Goku had to predict Hit all over again [just like he did in base mode] because Hit is now stronger than Goku Blue when improving Time-Skip to 0.2 seconds.
When Goku went Blue against a Hit that was only 0.1 seconds He was shown punching and avoiding Hit before 0.1 seconds. Due to Goku being stronger in Blue.

The thing is though, they made a point that Hits form and battle power hadn't actually changed, it was merely his Time-skip that had improved, not his physical power. Also, there are no scenes showing Goku dodging Hits time-skip before it ended, in fact, quite the contrary is true, as it repeatedly shows Goku having attacks land on him during the time-skip. The only time his been shown to be avoiding Hits time-skip is in his base form when he manages to block Hits punches. Also, his never shown punching during Hits time-skip, only immediately afterwards, which plays into the idea that Goku is predicting and countering Hits movements.

[Meshack]

-Super Saiyan God return-

I've been complaining about the use of SSG in the manga since chapter 13. Now that the anime did the same thing, I will have to take it back.

Toyotaro's version flows much better in this regard unlike the anime where they brought back the form 4 arcs later. It's too long of absence.

Toei just took the only creative thing in the manga and put it in the anime, which is the switch on/off between SSG and SSB. I loved that in the manga and it's cool to see it in the anime.
I hope we get more of that. However I still think SSB+Kaioken is too much of badassery to get rid of, so what I would do is keep it in Champa arc and bring back SSG in FT Trunks arc.

As for Vegeta, I don't care if he has SSG or not. He doesn't need to have all the forms that Goku has. But if he gets it in the anime that will contradict with his decision of not wanting to go that route in the end of BOG arc. It could work as character development but some explanation would be necessary. While in the manga Toyotaro didn't explain how Vegeta got it, I can assume he just did the ritual off-screen which is also what I assumed before Super when we got ROF Movie.

Anyway, Toei and Toyotaro help each other and work together to come up with a better product would be much better than each one go different ways and do their own crazy stuff.

This is a problem I see all the time when people discuss the manga. They don’t read everything and pick out what they want. It is explained how Vegeta got God and it was because of his training in the Room.

[Meshack]

Basically, the manga is more consistent than the anime. Power is major in the series and in the manga, it’s kept consistent, whereas the anime, it’s all over the place. Gokuh and Vegeta are somewhat kept as equals in the manga but in the anime, Gokuh is always stronger in some way than Vegeta. Reintroducing Kaiohken back into the series messes everything up and becomes weird later as God is being reintroduced after Gokuh absorbed the power of God.

[LightBing]

Have people realized the irony of calling this arc the Future Trunks arc?

It's apparent from the recent interview that besides his focus in the first third of the arc and the final slash at the end, Mr.Toriyama deemed Trunks role to be just that. An assumption based on both parts being in both versions and not being mentioned as extras from the original draft like Vegetto's inclusion.

Both Toei and Toyotarõ greatly expanded his role. Toei I say shoved him down our throats. Toyotarõ also forced him into the story but in a logical and wholesome way. At least Toei also tried the emotional approach, unfortunately it mostly failed.

Looking back now at people bashing the manga for "making Trunks a secondary/tertiary character in his own arc" is pretty funny.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

Have people realized the irony of calling this arc the Future Trunks arc?

It's apparent from the recent interview that besides his focus in the first third of the arc and the final slash at the end, Mr.Toriyama deemed Trunks role to be just that. An assumption based on both parts being in both versions and not being mentioned as extras from the original draft like Vegetto's inclusion.

Both Toei and Toyotarõ greatly expanded his role. Toei I say shoved him down our throats. Toyotarõ also forced him into the story but in a logical and wholesome way. At least Toei also tried the emotional approach, unfortunately it mostly failed.

Looking back now at people bashing the manga for "making Trunks a secondary/tertiary character in his own arc" is pretty funny.

It still stands though this doesn't change anything. Toriyama's outline is not actual source material*, Toei decided to make the arc all about the namesake Trunks and Toyo decided to have him be the background character role. This recent interview doesn't magically make the opinion that Toyo treated Trunks like a tertiary character less valid, the dude stopped drawing base Trunks properly by the end, is that a result of Toriyama's outline too?

I don't see how Toei forced him alright #66 was pretty hammy but other than that it is his timeline of course he's gonna fight for it him just standing there on the sideline in the Manga was too stupid. Like that isn't what I'd expect of Trunks.

*Even then the interview doesn't confirm anything other than Trunks being secondary in the Manga was Toyo's doing.

[LightBing]

It still stands though this doesn't change anything. Toriyama's outline is not actual source material*, Toei decided to make the arc all about the namesake Trunks and Toyo decided to have him be the background character role. This recent interview doesn't magically make the opinion that Toyo treated Trunks like a tertiary character less valid, the dude stopped drawing base Trunks properly by the end, is that a result of Toriyama's outline too?

I don't see how Toei forced him alright #66 was pretty hammy but other than that it is his timeline of course he's gonna fight for it him just standing there on the sideline in the Manga was too stupid. Like that isn't what I'd expect of Trunks.

*Even then the interview doesn't confirm anything other than Trunks being secondary in the Manga was Toyo's doing.

Stupid like him standing around for most of the Androids and Cell arc? Or like 90% of the characters stand around when the enemies are overwhelmingly stronger. By Toei's logic they would force Trunks into the Cell Games giving him a magical power boost, fighting alongside Goku or Gohan.
He intervened when he could, like sacrificing himself just so Goku and Vegeta could escape.

Toyotarõ didn't make Trunks a side character, I know people give more importance to certain aspects than others but calling Trunks a tertiary character in the manga is ridiculous. I'll copy what I wrote in the previous page, I repeated this far too many times already:

Future Trunks
The other heated discussion. Particularly annoying this one in regards to the criticism of the manga. Which was Trunks being a secondary character, which is a shallow complaint. It's not up for discussion that Trunks was more relevant in the anime. He was the most relevant character in the anime, I tracked it: Anime Influence Rankings

That relevance needs to have quality and not brainlessly shove the character into the spotlight for the sake of it. Where's the reward of having Trunks punched around alongside Goku and Vegeta? That's the main difference, during the main fight in the manga Trunks was in the sidelines because that's how it should be logically. Toyotarõ was still able to make him important during the main fight due to his healing abilities, before the main act he was given wide focus. He even got his mini-Boo Arc that provided dividends later.
Unless you give a disproportional weight to fights(even then Trunks had as many fight's as Goku), Trunks was extremely important in the manga.

[Meshack]

I hate it when people call Trunks in the manga a tertiary character. They think just because the arc is names after Trunks means that he should have the most relevancy the even the main character but it doesn’t make sense that way. Trunks traveled back to a world where he is extremely outclassed. Gokuh and Vegeta have Super Saiyan God and Super Saiyan Blue which are established to be on another level than the prior forms. Black was able to abuse the power of a more powerful Gokuh and it heightened his power beyond Gokuh’s and Vegeta’s, who Trunks cannot keep up with (realistically.) I don’t think Zamasu’s power was said but probably above Trunks’s if Gokuh didn’t want Trunks to fight him. Plus he had immortality. How do you expect Trunks to keep up? With a bs form? Trunks’s didn’t need another form to be relevant. He was fine being a Kaiohshin apprentice. Trunks being a Kaiohshin makes sense of Mye not dying to Black when he attacked her. Black wanted to kill Trunks but why not Mye? The anime made no sense in that regard. He straight up killed Bulma but why didn’t he straight up kill Mye? He was about to kill Trunks with the Kamehameha until he got away in the time machine. The manga makes more sense of that by having Trunks heal Mye when she was on the verge of death. This is even better since it makes the reveal that he is a Kaiohshin apprentice much better so he could help out Gokuh to defeat Zamasu in the end. Trunks also sliced Zamasu in half (which happened in the anime also). It also makes no sense on how Trunks was able to do the Mafuuba after seeing it once and having no mastery over it and it took Gokuh hours to master. Trunks all of a sudden learns it after his mom was being threatened by Zamasu? Speaking of Trunks and attacks, the Genkidama. How was he able to do this? He hasn’t seen the Genkidama once and doesn’t know how it works. It took Gokuh a while to learn this and master it. Kaioh hasn’t even mastered his own attack. The only part about Trunks I liked in the anime was the emotional part of it. The anime has music and voice acting so that’s something the manga can’t do unless it had a vomic which is unlikely. The anime is a cluster **** the entire Future Trunks Arc. They went back and forth twice in the anime when it was very unnecessary. The manga only did it once and didn’t seem like a waste of time. They also figured out who Black was before going into the future to confront him.

I feel like people hate on the manga for no reason. For what it is, it’s far superior than the anime.

[Kanassa]

Stupid like him standing around for most of the Androids and Cell arc?

I don't think anything could treat Trunks worse than the Cell arc. "As soon as my first scene is done, I'm an utterly pointless addition!"

[perucho1990]

The best thing the anime did was kill the "DBS is the Goku and Vegeta show meme", Goku vs Merged Zamasu in the manga was giving off DBGT flashbacks, learning Hakai and mastering SSJB out of nowhere without any build.

[Meshack]

The best thing the anime did was kill the "DBS is the Goku and Vegeta show meme", Goku vs Merged Zamasu in the manga was giving off DBGT flashbacks, learning Hakai and mastering SSJB out of nowhere without any build.

There was no build for tons of things. Not just in Dragon Ball. Not everything needs build up. Build up is good but not everything needs to be built up. Really, the only built up thing in the entirety of Dragon Ball is Ultra Instinct, which is very recent. A lot of stuff in Dragon Ball was something that was thought of on the spot. We don’t see all of Gokuh’s and Vegeta’s training in anything except filler. Toriyama never or barely showed training for everything in the series. How is it out of no where if we don’t see much of anything? Even if he mastered Blue, the form still taxes on his body. He can’t hold it for long. Unless Toyotarou has train during the 40 hours before the tournament, I don’t see Toyotarou doing somethung ridiculous like him mastering the tax since Gokuh hasn’t trained. Also, about Hakai, it wouldn’t have worked against Zamasu and it was a last-resort attack tather than an attack like Kamehameha

[Miracles]

Again, it isn't shown in the anime that his dodging Hits punches before .1 seconds have passed.

The entire point of that fight is that Goku is out-predicting Hit, thats why Hit improves his time-skip to 0.2 seconds. Goku's plan when that does happen at that point isn't "I'm going to power up more", it was "I'm going to endure a few of your Hits to get used to your movements at 0.2 seconds."

Its never shown that Goku is breaking Hits time-skip in regular Blue. His only outfighting Hit because his predicting his movements after Time-skip and countering, which is allowing him to outfight Hit.

Also, if we want to continue this conversation, I think your next post should quote me in the manga vs anime thread.

Goku had to predict Hit all over again [just like he did in base mode] because Hit is now stronger than Goku Blue when improving Time-Skip to 0.2 seconds.
When Goku went Blue against a Hit that was only 0.1 seconds He was shown punching and avoiding Hit before 0.1 seconds. Due to Goku being stronger in Blue.

The thing is though, they made a point that Hits form and battle power hadn't actually changed, it was merely his Time-skip that had improved, not his physical power. Also, there are no scenes showing Goku dodging Hits time-skip before it ended, in fact, quite the contrary is true, as it repeatedly shows Goku having attacks land on him during the time-skip. The only time his been shown to be avoiding Hits time-skip is in his base form when he manages to block Hits punches. Also, his never shown punching during Hits time-skip, only immediately afterwards, which plays into the idea that Goku is predicting and countering Hits movements.

Goku clearly stated Hit's power and speed increased when he increased Time skip to 0.2 seconds. The skip froze him completely and the blow in that 0.2 seconds state hurt Blue Goku badly.
While in 0.1 seconds the blows against Blue Goku were ineffective. We even see Goku punching Hit BEFORE he reaches Goku to attack when he uses Time skip in 0.1 seconds.
Cause Hit is weaker in 0.1 seconds and Time skip isn't fully working on Blue Goku due to him being able to move and attack Hit BEFORE Hit reaches him in 0.1 seconds.

[perucho1990]

There was no build for tons of things. Not just in Dragon Ball. Not everything needs build up. Build up is good but not everything needs to be built up. Really, the only built up thing in the entirety of Dragon Ball is Ultra Instinct, which is very recent. A lot of stuff in Dragon Ball was something that was thought of on the spot. We don’t see all of Gokuh’s and Vegeta’s training in anything except filler. Toriyama never or barely showed training for everything in the series. How is it out of no where if we don’t see much of anything? Even if he mastered Blue, the form still taxes on his body. He can’t hold it for long. Unless Toyotarou has train during the 40 hours before the tournament, I don’t see Toyotarou doing somethung ridiculous like him mastering the tax since Gokuh hasn’t trained. Also, about Hakai, it wouldn’t have worked against Zamasu and it was a last-resort attack tather than an attack like Kamehameha

It forced how Goku went from being curbstomped by Merged Zamasu to keep up with him.

About Hakai, if it was going to fail then why did Merged Zamasu even use Mai as a hostage?

[Meshack]

There was no build for tons of things. Not just in Dragon Ball. Not everything needs build up. Build up is good but not everything needs to be built up. Really, the only built up thing in the entirety of Dragon Ball is Ultra Instinct, which is very recent. A lot of stuff in Dragon Ball was something that was thought of on the spot. We don’t see all of Gokuh’s and Vegeta’s training in anything except filler. Toriyama never or barely showed training for everything in the series. How is it out of no where if we don’t see much of anything? Even if he mastered Blue, the form still taxes on his body. He can’t hold it for long. Unless Toyotarou has train during the 40 hours before the tournament, I don’t see Toyotarou doing somethung ridiculous like him mastering the tax since Gokuh hasn’t trained. Also, about Hakai, it wouldn’t have worked against Zamasu and it was a last-resort attack tather than an attack like Kamehameha

It forced how Goku went from being curbstomped by Merged Zamasu to keep up with him.

About Hakai, if it was going to fail then why did Merged Zamasu even use Mai as a hostage?

Gokuh was not at full power when Black and Zamasu merged. He then was getting beat up by Potara Zamasu, being attacked by Katchin Steel. Trunks healed him, Gokuh got all of his power back, did Mastered Blue. How is that hard to understand?

Zamasu is not a Hakaishin. He doesn’t know the abilities of a Hakaishin. Zamasu believed he was going to die but Beerus later revealed that he cannot kill those who are immortal.

[MaskedRider]

I like them both for the Future Trunks arc but I do prefer the anime. I don't think one is good over the other as they both are the same in essence to what the Future Trunks arc is (Trunks goes back, stays in the present for a bit, goes back, Trunks stays in the future, they return to the future, Zamasu "loses" and then he unlocks hax for Zeno to show up and erase the future world) and they both have personal nit picks and chapters / episodes that I thought were flat out bad but nothing to hinder my enjoyment to both.

I didn't mind Future Trunks becoming the white mage for the party as he was both useful in that regard and as a fighter but I liked the journey to Ikari's transformation and its conclusion with the Final Hope Slash more for the sentimental value they had. I'm willing to call it an ass pull without trying to defend it for it being able to help Trunks keep up with the power of SSR Black but I can't hate it because of it being brought about to Trunk's and taking into consideration the context that is his life. I can't excuse it but this is not the first time I loved an ass pull in anime / manga. Trunks understanding of Goku and Vegeta's newfound power leads him to believe he has no reason to become stronger as he expects Goku and Vegeta to solve his problems for him and they make sure Trunks understands that by having Vegeta and kid Trunks call him out on his weaknesses. What I loved is how they lowkey in the end make it that it wasn't just Trunks power alone who defeated Zamasu but the future inhabitants as well with the help of his father and Goku. It was a joint effort I much appreciate. It proved to Trunks he does have the strength and he is not alone. People can ask what the point all of that was after his world was erased but it really does show hope has never been more important than it has during that. The idea that there is two Trunks and Mais bother me as a sore to the story but the fact there is a world where the future inhabitants don't have to remember Black or Zamasu's wrath would be worth it in my opinion.

I think I accidentally went ton a tangent but if I lived in a perfect world the executions that the manga and anime had would be combined.

[KuririnNoKotoKa]

Looking back now at people bashing the manga for "making Trunks a secondary/tertiary character in his own arc" is pretty funny.

Funny because?

It's not about an arbirtrary quota of screen/panel time...

Even if the Trunks bits he took are from Toei, it's his job to actually make them work as a story for Trunks since he put them into his manga either way or, if he is following the outline that closely, at the very least Goku.

The major beats are mostly shared between both mediums, but you can't expect it to work for Trunks due to his role as a more supportive character in the manga version. Hell, I think even Toyotaro noticed that since he made Vegeta be the one who caused Infinite Zamasu to escalate to the level where the cast can't possibly deal with.

Had Toyotaro actually gone into a different direction, maybe focusing properly on Goku instead of shoehorning him into the climax while actively going out of his to remove him of any potentially interesting situation throughout the story, there would be something worth discussing, but as with Trunks, his story beats that matter are pretty much identical between both versions (recklessness with the Mafuuba, calling Zeno to clear up the mess) and the character is borderline self contradictory on a chapter to chapter basis so... yeah, not much worth talking about here.

[FortuneSSJ]

-Super Saiyan God return-

I've been complaining about the use of SSG in the manga since chapter 13. Now that the anime did the same thing, I will have to take it back.

Toyotaro's version flows much better in this regard unlike the anime where they brought back the form 4 arcs later. It's too long of absence.

Toei just took the only creative thing in the manga and put it in the anime, which is the switch on/off between SSG and SSB. I loved that in the manga and it's cool to see it in the anime.
I hope we get more of that. However I still think SSB+Kaioken is too much of badassery to get rid of, so what I would do is keep it in Champa arc and bring back SSG in FT Trunks arc.

As for Vegeta, I don't care if he has SSG or not. He doesn't need to have all the forms that Goku has. But if he gets it in the anime that will contradict with his decision of not wanting to go that route in the end of BOG arc. It could work as character development but some explanation would be necessary. While in the manga Toyotaro didn't explain how Vegeta got it, I can assume he just did the ritual off-screen which is also what I assumed before Super when we got ROF Movie.

Anyway, Toei and Toyotaro help each other and work together to come up with a better product would be much better than each one go different ways and do their own crazy stuff.

This is a problem I see all the time when people discuss the manga. They don’t read everything and pick out what they want. It is explained how Vegeta got God and it was because of his training in the Room.

Toyotaro never explained that. Vegeta realized he needed that form to fight Black, but it was never confirmed when he got it.
Super Saiyan God concept in BOG movie, DBS anime and DBS manga is linked to the ritual. It was never confirmed a Saiyan could unlock it through training, even if he had God Ki.

Goku wasn't also impressed by seeing Vegeta using SSG, which means he knew about it and Vegeta probably did the ritual off-screen before FT Trunks arc.