Ever since Super's release, people are very quick to dismiss all criticisms about power level inconsistencies. Why?

[Asura]

Actually I think the thing that bothers people probably more than the radical scaling, is the lack of any real good explanation and any real build up.

Yes, exactly this. I dunno why there are so many people here who don't understand this, and constantly yell at the power level people as if they're a blight on society or something.

If you want to make Trunks as strong as Vegeta and Goku, that's fine. Just give us an explanation.

If you want to make Krillin jump from like, pre-Dr. Gero levels to Kid Buu levels, that's fine. Just give us an explanation.

If you want to make Android 17 go toe-to-toe with SSB Goku with both of them holding back, that's fine. Just give us an explanation(*)

*And they did give us an explanation. It wasn't really a good one, but it was an explanation, and I for one am satisfied with that.

I keep hearing the argument brought up that goes something along the lines of "Well sure it doesn't make sense, but why can't you just ignore it in favor of the character and emotional developments instead?"

And to that, I'd just bring up TheMIkado's example again.

The shows entire theme is about power.
It's like having an anime themed around love and romance, but the relationships are ridiculous, all over the place, and don't make any sense.

Can you imagine you were watching a romance themed anime, you've got your main character and the love interest. They meet for the first time, and have some coffee. It's just a normal conversation between people who just met each other, nothing romantic or anything like that. In the next episode, the two are already a pair and interact with each other as if they've been lovers for years. She's already living at his place and there's great chemistry between them.

And then that's when you guys would say "Look at all that emotional and character development!" and I would say Well, yeah...but how the hell did we get to that point? How did that progression make any kind of sense? How the hell did we go from point A to point Z in one episode? Where's the explanation? How come they're great lovers with amazing chemistry now? Why didn't we get to see their relationship? The character interactions are nice and all, but they don't really make up for the fact that the story that brought us to that point doesn't actually make much sense or give any explanation as to what occurred.

That's exactly the state Super is in. Of course we like to see all the emotional and developmental stuff. Of course we like to see those old characters getting to shine again. We just want it to happen in a way that actually makes sense in a fluid story. A show that just goes from point A to point Z without showing or explaining all the letters inbetween doesn't make for a good story. But some people only care about the pay-off, and I feel like that's what's happening here. How we got to point Z doesn't matter, the fact that we're at point Z is good enough. I disagree though. That's no way to write a story.

[Shuby]

The problem wasn't per se Goku holding back in SSB form, it's that Goku trained with the likes of Whis in his base form to the point Vegeta in his base form obliterated ssj 3 Gotenks. On top of that ssj Goku was no match for n17 , a 50x multiplier and when Goku transformed into his blue form, well guess what n17 was still holding back.
so n17 > ssj1 Goku > base form Vegeta/Goku(trained by Whis) > Gotenks ssj 3

[dhaval_dongre]

Because Super is generally liked by people and that attracts those who like to defend the things they like no matter how nonsensical it appears to others and those who don't have much of a problem with consistency, but don't like all the negativity, that comes in power level debates.
There's probably also something about its blurry canon status, as now there is no manga straight from Toriyama to show, the "true" version of events, so they get to say the anime is the "true" version of events anyways and thus it must simply be defended even more vigorously.

Hey you have the same profile name on The Guardian right ? Seen a guy with the same name a lot of times in the comments section, especially in football related articles.

[Neo-Makaiōshin]

What's the problem of making a counter argument againts an oposite argument?

[dbgtFO]

Because Super is generally liked by people and that attracts those who like to defend the things they like no matter how nonsensical it appears to others and those who don't have much of a problem with consistency, but don't like all the negativity, that comes in power level debates.
There's probably also something about its blurry canon status, as now there is no manga straight from Toriyama to show, the "true" version of events, so they get to say the anime is the "true" version of events anyways and thus it must simply be defended even more vigorously.

Hey you have the same profile name on The Guardian right ? Seen a guy with the same name a lot of times in the comments section, especially in football related articles.

Yup, that's me
And that is also why my avatar is the way it is over there!

[dhaval_dongre]

Because Super is generally liked by people and that attracts those who like to defend the things they like no matter how nonsensical it appears to others and those who don't have much of a problem with consistency, but don't like all the negativity, that comes in power level debates.
There's probably also something about its blurry canon status, as now there is no manga straight from Toriyama to show, the "true" version of events, so they get to say the anime is the "true" version of events anyways and thus it must simply be defended even more vigorously.

Hey you have the same profile name on The Guardian right ? Seen a guy with the same name a lot of times in the comments section, especially in football related articles.

Yup, that's me
And that is also why my avatar is the way it is over there!

Lol. That's nice. I primarily guessed that because of that Gohan avatar.

[t0ffe3m4n]

A.) Krillin Destructo Disc being able to ignore power levels for no apparent reason then just because Toriyama wanted it too would, to me, reinforce the whole "feats and gains" as plot demands not subvert it. And there would also be the issue that second form Frieza should have been able to dodge it completely being massively more powerful/faster than Goku when he trounced Burter who was vastly faster than Krillin.

You see, the kienzan doesn't bother me because its literally a one of a kind technique, no other technique has that property but the kienzan. Second form Freeza was able to completely dodge a barrage of kienzan thrown by Kuririn so don't know what you mean there. If anything this was already shown with Nappa, an opponent that could effortlessly oneshot Kuririn with less than half his power, yet the kienzan was capable of dealing fatal damage to the point even Vegeta was very weary of it (probably because he has the move itself so he knows what it can do). This trait for the kienzan has been very consistent in non-filler sequences of the series, you can't really compare it to "feats and gains" as the plot demands, it really subverts it.

Am I right in thinking that the only time a character actually took a direct Kienzan hit and brushed it off completely unaffected was Perfect Cell? Even still, kind of puts a hole in what you're saying turbo even though I do generally agree up until that point.

[TheMikado]

^ that was filler and not in the manga. So technically it was misused and should have actually decapitated Cell.

[Draconic]

I was planning to put this in a thread from the General Franchise sub-forum, but that got locked and I wasted enough time writing it that I'll just leave it here. It's not 100% on topic, but it's the closest thing.

Power levels as a concept were easy to understand and rely where characters stood against each other, however it is for a reason they are abandoned in the same arc they are introduced: It makes everything too linear. If all it takes is for one character's number to be bigger than another's, the whole sense of tension is lost. 2 will always beat 1, but that's not how fights ever really played out. It misses the point of ability, skill, technique and intellect that every fighter possessed. Goku is a genius, Vegeta is cunning, Krillin can improvise, Tenshinhan and Kame-Sennin know dozens of techniques, Freeza was durable, Cell could regenerate etc.
Sure, power played a part, but if it was the only thing that mattered there would be no drama. The uber-powerful villains would just win instantly. Training by itself never amounted to anything:
Goku surppassed Daimao after Karin, but it still took determination to win.
He trained with Kami, but still had to resort on his techniques and kept aces up his sleeves at all points to beat Piccolo Jr, even though he was stronger.
After training with Kaio he lost the battle of power against Vegeta anyway, but won the fight due to his allies.
The list goes on. The only characters focused on power were the bad guys and they lost at every turn, even when having every situation in their favor. Because Dragon Ball is not about being the most powerful, it's about being the best fighter. Power plays a big part of that, but not the only part.

Which brings me to power scaling, or better yet, clarity on where characters stand in relation to one another on their journey of becoming the best fighters. That is important!
There are situations where characters can and do get way over their head. You can't present one as struggling to stay alive one time and the next having him be on top of everyone with no explanation. You can't just have, say Chaotzu defeat Whis. One is shown being fodder for every opponent he faces, one is shown to be the strongest being in the universe. Trough hardships, training and the best of their abillities, characters like Goku and Vegeta still can't do it.

That's the story: Overcoming this new scale. You can't show someone jumping trough all those scales without giving a reason why. It undermines the story. It's a bit more acceptable with antagonists, since those always have some hacks, some catch in order to make them a threat, but with heroes it's not that simple. Getting trough obstacles is what makes heroes interesting, so other characters not working trough those obstacles cheapens the accomplishments of those who do.

However, what breaks or doesn't break the scale is debatable, because again, it's not just about numbers, how many times X is stronger than Y and so on.
Using the Krillin situation, in no way during his fight with Goku (or Gohan for that matter) is it shown he could ever stand up to them. However, he is shown able to get the job done: a ring out. Sure, he will lose if he ends up tangling with someone way over his head, if he tries to go hand to hand with him, but he doesn't have to in order to win the match. It perfectly illustrates that just relying on power won't get you far into this tournament and perfectly illustrates that you can have competent fighters without breaking the scale. Context matters!

Using tactics, special skills, taking advantage of surroundings and stuff unique to every fighter in order to overcome power differences is 101 storytelling.

The scaling gets broken when a better combatant in every way is defeated by someone who's never shown either power, skill or abillity on par with the former's.

Z and GT (to an extent) didn't have as much of a problem with this because it's situations were straight forward. Fights were usually one on one, the ultimate goal was killing the bad guy. If the best fighter there couldn't win, it's normal neither could the worse ones. Of course some were left in the dust. But except the Future Trunks arc, Super isn't really like this. BoG twists those concepts, in RoF Freeza is undermined half-way trough the fight and the tournaments are the furthest from that formula.
My problems with Super's scaling stem from RoF mostly. It's not clear in the least were the bad guys stand, where the heroes stand and it fucks everything after it too, which does keep itself somewhat clear if you ignore it. However, this is deviating from the topic so I'll just leave it at that.

To conclude, power scaling is important. Knowing who can beat who, under what circumstances, is worthwhile, because otherwise it all becomes a mess and the achievements of the characters get lessened otherwise. However, what does or doesn't keep the scale shouldn't just be measured by numbers, but context too.

[t0ffe3m4n]

^ that was filler and not in the manga. So technically it was misused and should have actually decapitated Cell.

Wow, didn't actually know that was a non-manga scene.