Is it really hard to believe that Future Zamasu can go toe to toe with SSJ Blue?

[sophitia]

Zamasu is said to be a fighting genius, even Goku said he has potential to be as strong as Beerus.
Then when he fought SSJBlue Goku (episode 57), I instantly thought "ah, he must be the future Zamasu".
But it seems people dislike his strength, blaming his immortality and "bad writing", while praising manga at the same time. In the manga future Zamasu is stated to be weaker than Trunks... kinda hard to believe considering 17 years has passed, yet he's only like SSJ2 level?

Thoughts?

[MisteryOne]

Being a fighting genius doesn't mean you can go to Blue tier, it's just a shitty excuse, just like the one used with Frieza. The real big problem with Future Zamasu (ignoring how much of a bad villain he is) is that sometimes he is SSB tier, other times he is destroyed by them, other times Trunks pre-Ikari is able to «defeat» him... Goku saying he can be as strong as Beerus doesn't mean anything since in that very same episode SS2 Goku was compared for whatever reason to a Hakaishin. Not to mention Goku has no way to know how long have Zamasu being training, what type of training he did, and if he is near his limits. In their fight Zamasu didn't show anything extremely impressive either, unless you are telling me SS2 Goku is near Beerus' strengh.

The manga is way more coherent. As Gowasu said himself, there is no reason at all for Kaioshins to keep focused just in getting stronger, since they are not going to use that strengh for anything, because the Hakaishins are the ones who interacts with the universe. So Zamasu is forced to use paralysis and other God powers to stand a chance (His first fight with Goku in the manga was really bad handled trough)

Trunks is SS3 tier in the manga, which still makes Zamasu extremely strong compared to the rest of the Kaioshins, as Shin noted himself.

Its definetly not hard to believe at all. People nowadays act like being a prodigy and train for years can be used as an excuse to get God tier, and no, it isn't. Even Frieza had a (extremely lame) excuse, since he never trained at all. That's not Zamasu's case. Fighting prodigies like Piccolo, Vegeta, Goku and Gohan have been training for years (Goku and Vegeta for way more than 17 years) yet they never got God tier. Having years of time to train doesn't excuse getting that strong, otherwise Roshi would be the strongest being. Its possible that he got Blue tier after all that years? Maybe, but its way more coherent with the story that he is weaker than Trunks. He being SSB tier in fact is another thing that makes the Zamasu duo too incompetent in the anime version: if he was so strong and they really wanted to kill Trunks, why was Black, the weaker of the two by a great margin, the one who tried to do it? Future Zamasu could have oneshoted Trunks.

[Bullza]

He can't go toe to toe with Super Saiyan Blue though.

Throughout that whole saga Future Zamasu got in maybe one or two hits in on a Super Saiyan Blue character and one of those was only because he hit Goku whilst he was already being knocked backwards because of Black.

Otherwise he's weaker than Trunks and no stronger than the present Zamasu who got his shit kicked in by Super Saiyan 2 Goku. He's certainly nowhere close to Super Saiyan Blue level.

[Freeza9000]

I thought of the whole Future Zamasu being able to fight SSJB Goku was due to Zamasu's immortality. I always interpreted Future Zamasu as an immortal brick wall that can't be destroyed no matter what and no matter how much stronger the trio of Saiyans are compared to Future Zamasu, he still won't stay down.

Even though the anime never explicitly explained that Zamasu's immortality enabled him to fight with Blue Goku and co., it does seem like it's pushing it to be the case. I mean, there are times where he can fight Blue Goku evenly, but later on getting casually backhanded by SSJB Goku like he's nothing. Even SSJR Black wasn't so casually knocked away like that.

[Lord Frieza]

Well one big think people seem to over look, something Goku himself pointed out quit clearly, is that Zamasu's immortality has made him lazy in regard to defense. Much like Goke in RoF, he's to overconfident, takes unnecessary damage and dose not keep his defenses up at all. As a result weaker characters can do more damage against him then they normally should much like Goku got taken out by Sorbet.

When it comes to training Zamasu is clearly not Blue tier, he's powerful enough to be dangerous but thats purely because he cannot die. That and he Black backing him up. However I should point out Goku said Zamasu "could" be as strong as Beerus one day. As in he if he really trained hard and given that his power was enough to at least fight against SS2 Goku at the start its it really so beyond reason that if he tried he could get that strong. Kaioshin as a race live for millions and millions of years and while they are not all equal in power to begin with, with such a long life span they likely have a very long time before reaching their physical limitations due to age. That would give Zamasu more then enough time to reach God Tier. Hell 17 years of training and the fact he's a kaioshin is a far better explanation for a power up then 4 months of training although Frieza is a unique case, and its a hell of a lot better then the one we got for #17 which was "He's stronger now because..."

I think the real problem is not Zamasu, its Trunks. Its his Gray Stuness that's causing the inconsistencies.

[Basako]

Considering the manga, the way he talked about Boo, I mean the evil, who wasn't stronger than a SSG, he isn't either. He is strong for his kind, I see him between SS2 and SS3.

[SaiyanGod117]

It's just bad writing, it makes no sense for a Kaioshin to even be in that league of power or even in the realm of it.

[Saiyan007]

The anime puts Future Zamasu on a Godly level.also immortality does not mean that you get a boost in speed and power.If Piccolo Jr. was immortal he would not be able to go hand to hand against Golden Freeza because although Piccolo cannot die the gap between them is still astronomical .

But The manga shows Zamasu far weaker than the Gods,(although he did dodge a hit from SSB goku)Goku using just SSJG was more than enough to deal with Zamasu

So it's in the Manga Zamasu is only as strong as Trunks which would be SSJ3 Tier

But in the Managa he's SSGSS levels quite a difference to say the least

[pacz360]

It nots

He can't go toe to toe with Super Saiyan Blue though.

Throughout that whole saga Future Zamasu got in maybe one or two hits in on a Super Saiyan Blue character and one of those was only because he hit Goku whilst he was already being knocked backwards because of Black.

Otherwise he's weaker than Trunks and no stronger than the present Zamasu who got his shit kicked in by Super Saiyan 2 Goku. He's certainly nowhere close to Super Saiyan Blue level.

He is ssjb level the fact that he can trade blows with ssjb goku and ssj rage trunks says otherwise.

[pacz360]

Immortality doesn't make you stronger it just makes very hard to kill.
Give saiyans saga vegeta immortality and he still wouldn't be able to do shit to Frieza

[pacz360]

Well one big think people seem to over look, something Goku himself pointed out quit clearly, is that Zamasu's immortality has made him lazy in regard to defense. Much like Goke in RoF, he's to overconfident, takes unnecessary damage and dose not keep his defenses up at all. As a result weaker characters can do more damage against him then they normally should much like Goku got taken out by Sorbet.

When it comes to training Zamasu is clearly not Blue tier, he's powerful enough to be dangerous but thats purely because he cannot die. That and he Black backing him up. However I should point out Goku said Zamasu "could" be as strong as Beerus one day. As in he if he really trained hard and given that his power was enough to at least fight against SS2 Goku at the start its it really so beyond reason that if he tried he could get that strong. Kaioshin as a race live for millions and millions of years and while they are not all equal in power to begin with, with such a long life span they likely have a very long time before reaching their physical limitations due to age. That would give Zamasu more then enough time to reach God Tier. Hell 17 years of training and the fact he's a kaioshin is a far better explanation for a power up then 4 months of training although Frieza is a unique case, and its a hell of a lot better then the one we got for #17 which was "He's stronger now because..."

I think the real problem is not Zamasu, its Trunks. Its his Gray Stuness that's causing the inconsistencies.

Exactly this^^^

[Freeza9000]

The anime puts Future Zamasu on a Godly level.also immortality does not mean that you get a boost in speed and power.

Well, you can say the same about immortality making Zamasu durable enough to take Rose Kamehameha even though immortality doesn't necessarily mean durability.

[LowRyder2005]

The anime is awfully inconsistent, like, well, basically every single time power scaling is concerned. The manga, however, makes it clear he's weak sauce compared to the higher Gods. This is at the very least partly reflected in the anime as well, given how SS1/2 Trunks manhandles Zamas and how Goku thinks Trunks may have killed Zamas with a Final Flash. Also, do note that Zamas immediately references his immortality as what enabled him to survive that particular attack, which again sounds pretty strange if he's really that strong compared to Trunks.

All in all, I can't help but think that Zamas suddenly putting on a show with SSB Goku was merely TOEI needing to fill some screentime and that he was always meant to be SS2 tier (just like the present one).
Also, Zamas being God tier would bring forth some more questions which are never exactly explored: exactly how could Zamas suddenly go from being a mid-Buu saga tier to a God tier? Some people talk about those 17 years being a great deal, but 17 years are like less than a day in a Kaioshin's life. I guess training with Goku Black, maybe?

[ekrolo2]

Zamasu got his ass kicked by SS2 Goku, Future Zamasu is on the same level of power. Doesn't take a rocket scientist with a set of degrees in gamma radiation to figure out shit is fucked when he's suddenly not getting turned into a mangled, immortal slab of meat and bones by one of Goku's Blue farts.

[Bullza]

He is ssjb level the fact that he can trade blows with ssjb goku and ssj rage trunks says otherwise.

He can't trade blows with him, he hit him a whole once and every other time got stomped with ease. Even Trunks overpowered him and that when he was just a Super Saiyan 2, Goku did the same as a Super Saiyan 2.

[pacz360]

He is ssjb level the fact that he can trade blows with ssjb goku and ssj rage trunks says otherwise.

He can't trade blows with him, he hit him a whole once and every other time got stomped with ease. Even Trunks overpowered him and that when he was just a Super Saiyan 2, Goku did the same as a Super Saiyan 2.

Future zamasu=/present zamasu
Goku noticed the difference between the two when he fought f.zam that was obvious
Oh you mean the same ssj2 trunks that that blocked a blow from ssjr black traded blows with him and even kicked him into a building? Yeah nice try...
F.zamasu is blue level more or less the lower end of it.

[pacz360]

Zamasu got his ass kicked by SS2 Goku, Future Zamasu is on the same level of power. Doesn't take a rocket scientist with a set of degrees in gamma radiation to figure out shit is fucked when he's suddenly not getting turned into a mangled, immortal slab of meat and bones by one of Goku's Blue farts.

What says he isn't stronger than p.zamasu.

[pacz360]

The anime is awfully inconsistent, like, well, basically every single time power scaling is concerned. The manga, however, makes it clear he's weak sauce compared to the higher Gods. This is at the very least partly reflected in the anime as well, given how SS1/2 Trunks manhandles Zamas and how Goku thinks Trunks may have killed Zamas with a Final Flash. Also, do note that Zamas immediately references his immortality as what enabled him to survive that particular attack, which again sounds pretty strange if he's really that strong compared to Trunks.

All in all, I can't help but think that Zamas suddenly putting on a show with SSB Goku was merely TOEI needing to fill some screentime and that he was always meant to be SS2 tier (just like the present one).
Also, Zamas being God tier would bring forth some more questions which are never exactly explored: exactly how could Zamas suddenly go from being a mid-Buu saga tier to a God tier? Some people talk about those 17 years being a great deal, but 17 years are like less than a day in a Kaioshin's life. I guess training with Goku Black, maybe?

Manga Power levels=/ anime don't even try it.

[LowRyder2005]

The anime is awfully inconsistent, like, well, basically every single time power scaling is concerned. The manga, however, makes it clear he's weak sauce compared to the higher Gods. This is at the very least partly reflected in the anime as well, given how SS1/2 Trunks manhandles Zamas and how Goku thinks Trunks may have killed Zamas with a Final Flash. Also, do note that Zamas immediately references his immortality as what enabled him to survive that particular attack, which again sounds pretty strange if he's really that strong compared to Trunks.

All in all, I can't help but think that Zamas suddenly putting on a show with SSB Goku was merely TOEI needing to fill some screentime and that he was always meant to be SS2 tier (just like the present one).
Also, Zamas being God tier would bring forth some more questions which are never exactly explored: exactly how could Zamas suddenly go from being a mid-Buu saga tier to a God tier? Some people talk about those 17 years being a great deal, but 17 years are like less than a day in a Kaioshin's life. I guess training with Goku Black, maybe?

Manga Power levels=/ anime don't even try it.

Try what?

[Bullza]

Future zamasu=/present zamasu
Goku noticed the difference between the two when he fought f.zam that was obvious
Oh you mean the same ssj2 trunks that that blocked a blow from ssjr black traded blows with him and even kicked him into a building? Yeah nice try...
F.zamasu is blue level more or less the lower end of it.

They never once said in either the anime or the manga that there was a difference in power between the two nor does it even make any sense for a being several million years old to have grown multiple times over in a mere 17 years.

The same Trunks couldn't even sense God Ki so wasn't even at the level of Base Goku.

Saying Future Zamasu is Blue level is like saying Krillin is. He was stomped by Goku every single time they clashed to the point it was comic relief, overwhelmed by Trunks as a SSJ2, overwhelmed by Goku as a SSJ2 and I could count on one hand the amount of times he actually was able to hit anyone.

Black was Blue level. Zamasu wasn't even as strong as Base Black.