[Manga] My thoughts on the Goku Black Arc's power scale

[Misirius]

Hi guys!

I'm really enjoying the Goku Black Arc in the manga more so than in the anime, for the fact that things actually make sense to me, although it still has it's flaws.

I created a Power Scale on how I think the manga has portrayed the characters, and to me, this is what makes more sense. I was going to post this is the DBZ Subreddit, but people there just downvote to hell once they see DBS Manga written in a post.

So, give me your thoughts overall on what you think!

Characters used: Future Zamasu, Future Trunks (SS2), Goku Black (Base), Goku Black (SS2), Goku Black (SSR), Vegeta (SS2), Vegeta (SSB), Vegeta (SSG + SSB Combo), Goku (SSB), Goku (Perfected SSB), Merged Zamasu, Vegito (SSB), Beerus, Whis, Zeno-sama.

- Future Zamasu : Zamasu, even being a prodigy Kaioshin, is still the weakest character in the manga's arc. Noticeable mentions: he can still get on par with other characters because of his Kaioshin abilities.

- Future Trunks (SS2) : Future Trunks is stronger than Zamasu in this form, even if Zamasu uses his unusual techniques.

- Goku Black (Base form): Goku Black base form has proven to be stronger than Trunks's SS2.

- Goku Black (SS2) : Powered up Goku Black with mortal Ki.

- Vegeta (SS2) : Vegeta SS2 proves to be stronger than SS2 Goku Black.

- Vegeta (SS Blue : pre-training) : Vegeta dominates SS2 Goku Black, almost to the point of killing him, before Future Zamasu comes in.

- Goku (SS Blue) : Goku is still somewhat stronger than Vegeta using this form, although not much.

- Goku Black (SS Rosé) : After getting all the Saiyan Boosts, Goku Black achieves the ability to control his Ki as a God, and gets this form. After achieving this form Goku Black dominates Vegeta.

- Vegeta (SS God + SS Blue combo) : After training in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber, Vegeta perfects the in-and-out technique that Goku displayed in the U6 vs U7 Tournament, catching Goku Black off guard, and proving to be able to beat him using this technique. There's no evidence that using this combo, Vegeta wouldn't beat SSB Goku. In my opinion, he would.

- Goku (Perfected SS Blue) : Now this is what has been putting people's headcannon on fire. Goku perfected SS Blue, making him stay at SSB'S 100% Power for a longer period of time, being able to hold on his own against Merged Zamasu. They are toe to toe for a few moments, but after Goku's body starts collapsing, he has no chance against Merged Zamasu.

- Merged Zamasu : Merged Zamasu has proven to be far stronger than Goku and Vegeta in SS Blue, because he has the power of Goku Black, combined with the power of Zamasu (arguably a Super Saiyan power) AND the power of the Potara, making him a huge threat, because not only he is faster and stronger than the figthers, but he also has immortality and Kaioshin abilities.

- Vegito (SS Blue) : Vegito in this form dominated Merged Zamasu. He was toying with him until he used too much power and defused.

- Beerus : We still don't know if SSB Vegito is stronger than Beerus, but I've put him here because of Vegito's power hungry time limit disadvantage. Still, there's no evidence to tell us otherwise of this scaling. Beerus is stronger than Merged Zamasu because he is arguabilly the same level of SSB Vegito, and Vegito was toying with Zamasu, so it's only logical: Beerus > Merged Zamasu.

- Whis : By a long shot, stronger than all the previous fighters.

- Zeno-sama: From all we know, strongest character in the franchise, to date.

[Lord Beerus]

The power scaling for the arc in the anime and manga are really arse backwards. All logic goes out of the window in the anime once SSJ Future Trunks sends SSJR Goku flying into a building and the manga royally screws the pooch by having Goku Black becoming 50 times stronger than SSJ2 Future Trunks, and by virtue SSJ3 Goku, and still getting his butt handed to him by SSJ2 Vegeta.

The best way to approach the power scale of the anime and manga is to a hell of a lot of headcanon. Or just don't care.

[MisteryOne]

I would say its acurate, but honestly, its hard to not make an acurate list Unlike in the anime the manga its pretty clear about who is stronger than who and how they reach that power. The only issue is Vegeta's SS2/mutated/whatever form, but still we know its stronger than SS Black amd weaker that SSG.

[MisteryOne]

The power scaling for the arc in the anime and manga are really arse backwards. All logic goes out of the window in the anime once SSJ Future Trunks sends SSJR Goku flying into a building and the manga royally screws the pooch by having Goku Black becoming 50 times stronger than SSJ2 Future Trunks, and by virtue SSJ3 Goku, and still getting his butt handed to him by SSJ2 Vegeta.

The best way to approach the power scale of the anime and manga is to a hell of a lot of headcanon. Or just don't care.

The manga just needs headcanon to explain one thing (Vegeta) trough. The anime has a way more fucked scale.

[Basako]

Yeah, I think your list is correct.

Merged Zamasu and Goku with mastered blue look equal, but I think we have to put MZ higher because Goku can't hold that power for long and he can.

I have two problems with the Manga power scaling. One, at the very begining, when Base Black was stronger than SS2 Trunks = SS3 Goku. I think that was too much for base, I think he should have been in SS for that. The other is when post Zenkai SS Black could fight better than Vegeta SSB, he should have gone Rose to make that believable.

[SaiyanGod117]

The power scaling for the arc in the anime and manga are really arse backwards. All logic goes out of the window in the anime once SSJ Future Trunks sends SSJR Goku flying into a building and the manga royally screws the pooch by having Goku Black becoming 50 times stronger than SSJ2 Future Trunks, and by virtue SSJ3 Goku, and still getting his butt handed to him by SSJ2 Vegeta.

The best way to approach the power scale of the anime and manga is to a hell of a lot of headcanon. Or just don't care.

The only powerscaling problem in the manga is Vegeta.

[Lord Beerus]

The only powerscaling problem in the manga is Vegeta.

The manga just needs headcanon to explain one thing (Vegeta) trough. The anime has a way more fucked scale.

We see when Base Goku Black debut, he wipes the floor with SSJ2 Future Trunks at his strongest. Then we see SSJ2 Future Trunks spar with SSJ2 Goku and we see that SSJ2 Future Trunks holds his own against SSJ2 Goku and we even get commentary from Whis that he's almost as strong as SSJ2 Goku, if not, just as strong. Then SSJ2 Future Trunks powers up even more and is on par with SSJ3 Goku. Fast forward, and then we see SSJ Goku getting pummeled by SSJ2 Vegeta. Huh? Now how in the hell is Vegeta SSJ2 strong enough to beat around a guy who becomes 50 times stronger than SSJ2 Future Trunks/SSJ3 Goku? When did Vegeta's SSJ2 form get so strong? Is is explicitly stated anywhere in the manga that Vegeta's SSJ2 became permanently much stronger than it previously was? No, it's not. And that's the issue. SSJ2 Vegeta shouldn't be in Base Goku Black realm of power at all. You can use headcannon all you want to say that Vegeta kept his power up in the BOG arc but that is never implied to be the case at all. It's just a theory. A theory that is no better than the one about Goku and Vegeta having two base forms in the anime.

Then the 100% strength SSJB Goku and Vegeta is also another red flag. Goku explicitly states that when Vegeta is interchanging between SSJB and SSJG to fight SSJR Goku Black, he power isn't decreasing at all and that he was storing the power and letting it explode every instant he attacked Goku Black. So everytime Vegeta switched to SSJB from SSJB to attack Goku Black he was, for all intents and purposes, using 100% of the power of SSJB. Then he fights Merged Zamasu with all his strength and gets his ass kicked. SSJB Goku at 100% fights Merged Zamasu is he just as strong. Since when?

Either Vegeta with haemorrhaging his strength as SSJB the Merged Zamasu, which wouldn't make sense and contradict what Vegeta said with being able to fight at the full power for a short while even when you haven't mastered the SSJB form, or Vegeta's SSJB form is weak as shit compared to Goku. Unless "a short while" counts as a split second or a few seconds, which wouldn't make sense either considering that when Vegeta interchange between SSJB and SSJG and he was still able to fight with all his power as a SSJB and keep his strength from decreasing. And keep in mind, Vegeta trained again in the ROSAT for practically a whole day before fighting Goku Black again in their second trip to the future, while Goku was practising the Mafuba. Which would just emphasise even further that the gap in strength between Goku and Vegeta is fucking huge.

And just to clarify again, and to clarify, Vegeta says you can only maintain the power of SSJB for "a short while", with Goku managing to master, or "complete", the SSJB form allowing to fight at full power longer than Vegeta can. That's the whole reason he tells Future Trunks to heal Goku instead of him. The amount of strength that SSJB provides Goku and Vegeta is still the same, whether it be at 10%, 25%, 50%, 80% or 100%. It just seems as though Goku at the full power of SSJB is much stronger than Vegeta at full power of SSJB. Of course it's noteworthy to take into consideration that Goku can maintain the power of SSJB longer than Vegeta can, but it wouldn't matter that much if, at 100% of the power of SSJB, Goku wasn't supposedly as strong as he is and much stronger than Vegeta.

And keep in mind, prior to that, after SSJ Goku got a Zenkai, SSJ Goku Black was still able to kick SSJB Vegeta ass after he at senzu and full restored of health and energy.

[SaiyanGod117]

I see no problem powerscaling problems about anything on your analysis except SSJ Vegeta, that's it. Sure some things could have been explained better, but the explanations we got were sufficient.

[Lord Beerus]

I see no problem powerscaling problems about anything on your analysis except SSJ Vegeta, that's it. Sure some things could have been explained better, but the explanations we got were sufficient.

Do we have any explanation in the manga as to why SSJ2 Vegeta is stronger than SSJ Goku Black, who himself is 50 times stronger than SSJ2 Future Trunks/SSJ3 Goku?

[SaiyanGod117]

I see no problem powerscaling problems about anything on your analysis except SSJ Vegeta, that's it. Sure some things could have been explained better, but the explanations we got were sufficient.

Do we have any explanation in the manga as to why SSJ2 Vegeta is stronger than SSJ Goku Black, who himself is 50 times stronger than SSJ2 Future Trunks/SSJ3 Goku?

The only possible explanation there is that Vegeta kept his power up from BOG.

[batistabus]

I see no problem powerscaling problems about anything on your analysis except SSJ Vegeta, that's it. Sure some things could have been explained better, but the explanations we got were sufficient.

Do we have any explanation in the manga as to why SSJ2 Vegeta is stronger than SSJ Goku Black, who himself is 50 times stronger than SSJ2 Future Trunks/SSJ3 Goku?

I came into this thread due to morbid curiosity expecting that it'll be locked soon anyway, but while I'm here, I might as well say something.

Please do not make up "multipliers". It seems (based on Chapter 15) that base Goku Black is stronger than Super Saiyan 2 Trunks, and we know that Super Saiyan 2 Trunks impressed Super Saiyan 3 Goku (They are not equal, Goku "cheated" to end the fight quickly by using God.). That's all. It's possible that Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta has surpassed Goku at that level (as he did momentarily in Battle of Gods), and Goku simply surpasses Vegeta in the realm of god ki.

As for why Goku Black is so strong in base form despite the fact that that Zamasu 1) hasn't mastered the body ("defiles Saiyan cells", as Vegeta puts it) and 2) doesn't seem to be using god ki is a bit of a mystery. Trunks has said that he has seen Black's Super Saiyan form before, so perhaps their scuffle we see in Chapter 15 shouldn't be viewed as a definitive example of either character's ability (Trunks appears to be in a weakened state, while Black may have just been healed by Zamasu). We don't know how long Black has been playing around in other worlds, so perhaps he has significantly improved Goku's base power while still failing to use the body to its max efficiency.

[Lord Beerus]

I see no problem powerscaling problems about anything on your analysis except SSJ Vegeta, that's it. Sure some things could have been explained better, but the explanations we got were sufficient.

Do we have any explanation in the manga as to why SSJ2 Vegeta is stronger than SSJ Goku Black, who himself is 50 times stronger than SSJ2 Future Trunks/SSJ3 Goku?

I came into this thread due to morbid curiosity expecting that it'll be locked soon anyway, but while I'm here, I might as well say something.

Please do not make up "multipliers". It seems (based on Chapter 15) that base Goku Black is stronger than Super Saiyan 2 Trunks, and we know that Super Saiyan 2 Trunks impressed Super Saiyan 3 Goku (They are not equal, Goku "cheated" to end the fight quickly by using God.). That's all. It's possible that Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta has surpassed Goku at that level (as he did momentarily in Battle of Gods), and Goku simply surpasses Vegeta in the realm of god ki.

As for why Goku Black is so strong in base form despite the fact that that Zamasu 1) hasn't mastered the body ("defiles Saiyan cells", as Vegeta puts it) and 2) doesn't seem to be using god ki is a bit of a mystery. Trunks has said that he has seen Black's Super Saiyan form before, so perhaps their scuffle we see in Chapter 15 shouldn't be viewed as a definitive example of either character's ability (Trunks appears to be in a weakened state, while Black may have just been healed by Zamasu). We don't know how long Black has been playing around in other worlds, so perhaps he has significantly improved Goku's base power while still failing to use the body to its max efficiency.

I'm not "making up multipliers". Goku Black transforms into a Super Saiyan and we know from the guidebooks that the SSJ transformation grants you boost in strength of x50. Has that ever been contradicted or disputed in the Super manga? No. So why are we suddenly no not using pre-established context for how the Super Saiyan transformations work with regards to Goku Black? He can transform into a SSJ and has the same boost in strength that any Super Saiyan would get. It is implied anywhere in the manga that is not that case? Or that Goku Blacks SSJ form works differently? Even when Goku Black stated that he had initially couldn't access all of Goku's power when he first stole his body, the fact he didn't even both to transform into a SSJ to easily defeat SSJ2 Future Trunks, and coupled with the fact that he even comments later that he got bored of fighting Future Trunks over and over again, it can be heavily imply he gained, at the very least, full access to the absolute strength of Goku's SSJ form.

Now, when we see Base Goku Black actually debut in the manga, he wipes the floor with SSJ2 Future Trunks. And Future Trunks didn't just impress Goku when he fought Goku. We first see SSJ2 Future Trunks spar evenly with SSJ2 Goku and we even get commentary from Whis that he's almost as strong as SSJ2 Goku, if not, just as strong. Then SSJ2 Future Trunks powers up even more and is on par with SSJ3 Goku. I mean, Vegeta flat out states he was as strong as SSJ3 Goku when powered up even more while as a SSJ2. Fast forward, and then we see SSJ Goku getting pummeled by SSJ2 Vegeta. Huh? Now how in the hell is Vegeta SSJ2 strong enough to beat around a guy who becomes 50 times stronger than SSJ2 Future Trunks/SSJ3 Goku? When did Vegeta's SSJ2 form get so strong? Is is explicitly stated anywhere in the manga that Vegeta's SSJ2 form became permanently much stronger than it previously was? No, it's not. And that's the issue. SSJ2 Vegeta shouldn't be in Base Goku Black realm of power at all.

The issue with SSJ2 Vegeta being as strong as he is is that there is no indication his SSJ2 form is incredibly strongly at any point after the BOG arc. As I've repeated in the past, if Vegeta kept his upgraded SSJ2 form, someone would have made a comment in-universe that he had done so. Much like Goku and Gohan mastering the original SSJ and increasing it's efficiency in the form as a result. But nobody makes that distinction. Not Vegeta, not Goku, not Future Trunks... nobody. You just have to make the assumption that Vegeta kept his Mutated/Raging/Whatever-the-fuck SSJ2 form from the BOG arc, but the major issue is that it's never implied to be the case right up until he face Goku Black.

For the record, I don't mind the idea that Vegeta kept his Mutated/Raging Super Saiyan 2 form. The core problem is that it's never implied, hinted or even indirectly inferred that the rage boost Vegeta got against Beerus in the BOG arc was permanent. That's just not how rage boosts even work. Even in comparison sake, what makes Vegeta "Rage Boost" any more special to what Gohan and Oob were able to in past? I just have a very hard time buying that Vegeta permanently unlocked his own mutated SSJ2 form because of how poorly the manga implies that to be the case. Regardless of how much supposed hidden potential Vegeta have to tap into with rage. Which in itself is poorly foreshadowed and barely indicated in the original. Vegeta keeping his enhanced SSJ2 form is much like Goku and Vegeta having two base forms in the anime... it's a theory. Not an indisputable, stone cold fact. By a hypothesis. But it unfortunately lacks any solid foundation in the story beyond the use of other fandom theories and headcanons. You can use headcannon all you want to say that Vegeta kept his power up in the BOG arc but that is never implied to be the case at all. Because, as I've already stated, it's just a theory. But, you know what, if it floats people's power level boats, then... whatever. But I still doesn't make sense with what we're told in the manga.

[Misirius]

Then the 100% strength SSJB Goku and Vegeta is also another red flag. Goku explicitly states that when Vegeta is interchanging between SSJB and SSJG to fight SSJR Goku Black, he power isn't decreasing at all and that he was storing the power and letting it explode every instant he attacked Goku Black. So everytime Vegeta switched to SSJB from SSJB to attack Goku Black he was, for all intents and purposes, using 100% of the power of SSJB. Then he fights Merged Zamasu with all his strength and gets his ass kicked. SSJB Goku at 100% fights Merged Zamasu is he just as strong. Since when?

You got the 2 100%'s wrong, buddy.

In this last chapter, even Vegeta aknowledges that he couldn't access Blue's full power, because he still had some energy leaking, like his aura. When fused with Goku, he knew Goku had been training to contain even the aura inside of him, making only THAT the full power of SSB.

So, "full power" SSB Vegeta is not as strong as 'Perfected' SSB Goku, as Vegeta mentioned it. Vegeta has a more balanced and sustainable technique (SSG+SSB Combo) while Goku has a Glass Cannon power up that fucks his body up, much like Kaioken.

It makes sense. SSB < Perfected SSB.

[Lord Beerus]

I think you misquoted, Misirius. I said that, not MisteryOne.

Anyway, the only thing in the latest chapter showed was that Vegeta admits coming to terms when he was fused with Goku is the knowledge of Goku overcoming the major weakness of leaking out ki and not being able to fight at the full power of SSJB constantly. Vegeta already knew that you can't fight at full power of SSJB for more than a short while. That's a central reason to why Vegeta adopts the strategy of interchanging between SSJB and SSJG when he fights SSJR Goku Black. Because as Goku commented himself, he can better retain the power of SSJB and when he attacked SSJR Goku Black, he unleashed the full strength of SSJB in an explosive attack and went back to SSJG to conserve energy. Goku even comments that Vegeta's power isn't decreasing at all. And Vegeta beats SSJR Goku Black down in that fashion for quite a while, too. The only difference between full power SSJB and perfected SSJB is that you can fight longer at 100% in the "completed" form.

[Zephyr]

we know from the guidebooks that the SSJ transformation grants you boost in strength of x50. Has that ever been contradicted or disputed in the Super manga? No. So why are we suddenly no not using pre-established context for how the Super Saiyan transformations work with regards to Goku Black? He can transform into a SSJ and has the same boost in strength that any Super Saiyan would get. It is implied anywhere in the manga that is not that case?

I think Vegeta's rage boost in Battle of Gods, and now especially Super Saiyan 2 Trunks being on par with Super Saiyan 3 Goku, entail that the Super Saiyan multipliers are no longer some holy writ that are binding in the actual story that they're not even a part of. It's tertiary, ancillary, supplementary trivia information. Such information has been ignored, forgotten, and retconned before. Said information continuing to be published in little trivia books doesn't mean that Toriyama remembers them, cares about them, or is obligated to dogmatically obey them. They obviously don't apply to these new stories, regardless of how well they may have retroactively been able to be applied to the stories of the past that they were not actually a part of.

Now, when we see Base Goku Black actually debut in the manga, he wipes the floor with SSJ2 Future Trunks. And Future Trunks didn't just impress Goku when he fought Goku. We first see SSJ2 Future Trunks spar evenly with SSJ2 Goku and we even get commentary from Whis that he's almost as strong as SSJ2 Goku, if not, just as strong. Then SSJ2 Future Trunks powers up even more and is on par with SSJ3 Goku. I mean, Vegeta flat out states he was as strong as SSJ3 Goku when powered up even more while as a SSJ2. Fast forward, and then we see SSJ Goku getting pummeled by SSJ2 Vegeta. Huh? Now how in the hell is Vegeta SSJ2 strong enough to beat around a guy who becomes 50 times stronger than SSJ2 Future Trunks/SSJ3 Goku? When did Vegeta's SSJ2 form get so strong? Is is explicitly stated anywhere in the manga that Vegeta's SSJ2 form became permanently much stronger than it previously was? No, it's not. And that's the issue. SSJ2 Vegeta shouldn't be in Base Goku Black realm of power at all.

How is this even an issue? Is it explicitly stated that his Super Saiyan 2 was permanently stronger? No, but that's very obviously implicitly the case.....by virtue of it still being way stronger than it should be. That's, like, horrendously obvious.

if Vegeta kept his upgraded SSJ2 form, someone would have made a comment in-universe that he had done so.

I know it's somehow a controversial opinion to have, but I don't think the characters are walking, talking strength comparison machines. They don't have to spell out every ounce of power comparison that possibly exists. If we see character A utterly overpower character B, do we really need to have someone explicitly confirm via a speech bubble that A is stronger than B? Not everything has to be directly on the nose. These characters don't have as much of a vested interest in listing how everyone stacks up to everyone else, what forms they have, what the forms are like, etc. as the fans watching, reading, and thinking about the story do. It's silly to presume that they would then for whatever reason act as if they did care as much as we did about random in-universe minutia and trivia, and drop random lines out of nowhere like "oh hey Kakarot, remember when my Super Saiyan 2 form was stronger than your Super Saiyan 3 form? Well it's permanent! Isn't that interesting and somehow relevant to things that are going on right now?"

[batistabus]

I'm not "making up multipliers". Goku Black transforms into a Super Saiyan and we know from the guidebooks that the SSJ transformation grants you boost in strength of x50. Has that ever been contradicted or disputed in the Super manga?

Now, when we see Base Goku Black actually debut in the manga, he wipes the floor with SSJ2 Future Trunks. And Future Trunks didn't just impress Goku when he fought Goku. We first see SSJ2 Future Trunks spar evenly with SSJ2 Goku and we even get commentary from Whis that he's almost as strong as SSJ2 Goku, if not, just as strong. Then SSJ2 Future Trunks powers up even more and is on par with SSJ3 Goku. I mean, Vegeta flat out states he was as strong as SSJ3 Goku when powered up even more while as a SSJ2.

The 50x multiplier is something from a guidebook that is decades old that wasn't written by Toriyama. You say there's nothing in the manga that contradicts this, I say there's nothing in the manga that proves this. It is a number made up by some guys at Shueisha to sell a product to people that would care about that sort of thing. Is 50x a reasonable multiplier? Possibly, in certain situations at certain points in the series. Does it have anything to do at all with the Future Trunks arc of DBS, especially since the nature of Super Saiyan has changed so much since it was first introduced? No, so I don't think it's responsible to throw that number around as if it's an agreed-upon set-in-stone fact that applies to every situation. Freeza states that through training he could raise his battle power to 1,300,000 compared to his previously stated battle power of 1,000,000. Does that make Super Saiyan's x50 seem reasonable?

Vegeta says they are comparable in strength, but we never actually see them fight. Accepting this at face value would be like accepting that Blue Vegetto is stronger than Beerus based on what Shin speculated. Either way, you're right, the presentation makes it seem as if they are close enough in power that either could potentially win. That being said, their battle has no relation to Vegeta's power. I don't think people assume that Vegeta gained a permanent power boost from his "MY BULMA" moment, but rather he had the potential to become that strong then, and is possibly that strong/stronger now. Trunks and Vegeta surpassing Goku as Super Saiyans may be Toyotaro's way of giving them a small victory over Goku, who we know is superior when using god ki. The fact that Vegeta's Super Saiyan 2 form may be the strongest non-god Super Saiyan doesn't warrant an explanation because it is sidelined and overshadowed by Blue and Rosé. He is holding back anyway, so his performance in that state isn't meant to be of as much significance as some might be inclined to give it.

[Lord Beerus]

Zephyr and batistabus you make valid points.

There is certainly nothing wrong with hand-waving parts of the story that may not add up or even not taking into consideration other information that has been provided previously within the context of another story, but there is also nothing wrong with giving more detail and information, as supposed to leaving certain aspects of the narrative vague. I'm not asking for an info dump in every battle so that I can get a concrete and indisputable perspective of where Character A lies in the realm of power compared to Character B. Just a throwaway line here or there just to clear up certain aspects of the story which may be a bit too vague or unnecessarily open for interpretation. It's an issue I have with both the anime and the manga. Is it stated in the anime that Goku Black gets a zenkai from every battle? No. Is it implied to be the case? Perhaps. Is it stated that Vegeta kept his Raging/Mutated SSJ2 form in the manga? No. Is it implied to the be case? Perhaps. Is it stated that SSJ Future Trunks got a "rage boost" to keep up with SSJR Goku Black and Zamasu in Episode 57? No. Is it implied to the be case? Perhaps. And so forth.

Hmm.

Maybe I'm just getting too wound up over nothing really. I think I just need to sit back, relax and enjoy the show.

[batistabus]

Maybe I'm just getting too wound up over nothing really. I think I just need to sit back, relax and enjoy the show.

I think your logic is mostly sound, and I don't mind discussing things like this from time to time. My main issue was with the 50x multiplier thing.

I will agree that the discrepancies that you've brought up are legitimate and without proper explanation in the series. Even if it is plausible that Black could be as strong as he appears in base form, it still seems unusual. I don't mind these types of things too much because of how much I'm enjoying the rest of the story. There are much more interesting things going on for me, and these things really only amount to small details at the end of the day. I hope you're enjoying the ride, too!