Caulifa is a threat to Goku.

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Re: Caulifa is a threat to Goku.

Post by Boo Machine » Mon May 29, 2017 2:18 pm

TheMikado wrote:
Boo Machine wrote:
TheMikado wrote: I know everyone loves to bring up the Goten and Trunks examples but I've said time and time again every character's reaction to their power and the ability to go SSJ is treated as a gag and never played straight. Further, even they had to go to the RoSaT to train.
I don't really see why it being played for laughs matters all that much. It doesn't change the fact that a 7 and an 8 year still achieved the form with little effort and was taken seriously enough that they were chosen by Goku to save the world from Majin Buu. Majin buu was a really goofy villain that did funny things for laughs, but he was also terrifying and treated seriously.
Imagine if they played Mr. Satans character straight in Super. It would show a complete and fundamentally misunderstanding of the original authors intentions and style. They fact that Super fails to recognize that when author HIMSELF in-universe recognizes the absurdity of the SSJ give away process shows it hold neither the spirit, nor the understanding of the journey presented in manga/anime. Things like this make me question whether the writers and producers of the show have actually seen or read the source material at all. It matters because the journey and the story matters.
Excuse my ignorance, but I don't connect that dots on your example? What do you mean, play Mr.Satan straight in Super and what does that have to do with SSJ? What are you talking about when the autho himself in-universe recongnizes the absurdity of the SSJ give away process?

Because SSJ was given away since after Goku. Characters may have worked for it but that doesn't change the fact that a legendary form that no one can achieve in a thousand years became a form thats been easier and easier to obtain, some of which obtain it off screen with little to no explanation.
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Re: Caulifa is a threat to Goku.

Post by Kanassa » Mon May 29, 2017 2:24 pm

Boo Machine wrote: Excuse my ignorance, but I don't connect that dots on your example? What do you mean, play Mr.Satan straight in Super and what does that have to do with SSJ? What are you talking about when the autho himself in-universe recongnizes the absurdity of the SSJ give away process?

Because SSJ was given away since after Goku. Characters may have worked for it but that doesn't change the fact that a legendary form that no one can achieve in a thousand years became a form thats been easier and easier to obtain, some of which obtain it off screen with little to no explanation.
I think he's trying to say that in-universe Toriyama clearly knew how easy he made Super Saiyan to get with Vegeta's "It's like a SUper Saiyan Bargin sale'' line, and that in Super the rest of the group should act shocked that's there's more Super Saiyans. Even though by this point neither GOku nor Vegeta should be shocked.
When Super apparently shoves Goku down our throats:

Kanassa wrote:
FoolsGil wrote:I hope Mark is dead. But chances are the dragonballs will bring his stupid ass back. :D
- FoolsGil, Out of Context, 2017

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Re: Caulifa is a threat to Goku.

Post by Boo Machine » Mon May 29, 2017 2:28 pm

Kanassa wrote:
Boo Machine wrote: Excuse my ignorance, but I don't connect that dots on your example? What do you mean, play Mr.Satan straight in Super and what does that have to do with SSJ? What are you talking about when the autho himself in-universe recongnizes the absurdity of the SSJ give away process?

Because SSJ was given away since after Goku. Characters may have worked for it but that doesn't change the fact that a legendary form that no one can achieve in a thousand years became a form thats been easier and easier to obtain, some of which obtain it off screen with little to no explanation.
I think he's trying to say that in-universe Toriyama clearly knew how easy he made Super Saiyan to get with Vegeta's "It's like a SUper Saiyan Bargin sale'' line, and that in Super the rest of the group should act shocked that's there's more Super Saiyans. Even though by this point neither GOku nor Vegeta should be shocked.
Well if Toriyama acknowledges how easy it is to gain Super saiyan and it's become acceptable with cases like Gohan , goten, and trunks, then why is it a huge deal now? Seems like SSJ has been easy to gain for the longest time now.
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Re: Caulifa is a threat to Goku.

Post by Kanassa » Mon May 29, 2017 2:29 pm

Boo Machine wrote:Well if Toriyama acknowledges how easy it is to gain Super saiyan and it's become acceptable with cases like Gohan , goten, and trunks, then why is it a huge deal now? Seems like SSJ has been easy to gain for the longest time now.
Plus, neither Vegeta or Goku know what's gone on in universe 6, they have no reason to be surprised that Cabba spread around the Super Saiyan Transformation.
When Super apparently shoves Goku down our throats:

Kanassa wrote:
FoolsGil wrote:I hope Mark is dead. But chances are the dragonballs will bring his stupid ass back. :D
- FoolsGil, Out of Context, 2017

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Re: Caulifa is a threat to Goku.

Post by BlueBasilisk » Mon May 29, 2017 4:30 pm

Kanassa wrote:I think he's trying to say that in-universe Toriyama clearly knew how easy he made Super Saiyan to get with Vegeta's "It's like a SUper Saiyan Bargin sale'' line, and that in Super the rest of the group should act shocked that's there's more Super Saiyans. Even though by this point neither GOku nor Vegeta should be shocked.
What's great is that by the U6 tournament, Vegeta has accepted this state of affairs and done a 180 on his previous stance. He's mad that Cabba isn't a Super Saiyan. :lol:

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Re: Caulifa is a threat to Goku.

Post by GodKaio-Ken » Mon May 29, 2017 5:38 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:
Doctor. wrote:Why is she a threat to Goku specifically? Goku is kind of a joke considering literally every other relevant Saiyan, barring maybe Vegeta, achieves transformations faster and easier than he does.
Mortherfucking this.

There are some many other Saiyans in the series that are really ahead of the curve compared to him in terms of achieving SSJ forms, that I'm surprised there are people that are so up in arms about Caulifla becoming a SSJ and a SSJ2(?) as easily as she did.
I have a personal theory equating this to real life.

Once there is someone there to teach you it becomes infinitely easier. Aside from an actual teacher just seeing something can be done makes it easier to achieve yourself.

Example: Before algebra existed no-one could do it. Once one person figured it out...everyone can. Aside from that if I see algebra being done without knowing it nyself I can piece the steps together to obtain the skill.

Obviously its not an exact comparison but its how I equate the ease to real world scenarios.

Especially since Ki can be sensed. Even if it cant be put into words perhaps the sensation of another turning SSJ can help in regulating your own Ki to do so.
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Re: Caulifa is a threat to Goku.

Post by TheMikado » Mon May 29, 2017 6:05 pm

Boo Machine wrote:
Kanassa wrote:
Boo Machine wrote: Excuse my ignorance, but I don't connect that dots on your example? What do you mean, play Mr.Satan straight in Super and what does that have to do with SSJ? What are you talking about when the autho himself in-universe recongnizes the absurdity of the SSJ give away process?

Because SSJ was given away since after Goku. Characters may have worked for it but that doesn't change the fact that a legendary form that no one can achieve in a thousand years became a form thats been easier and easier to obtain, some of which obtain it off screen with little to no explanation.
I think he's trying to say that in-universe Toriyama clearly knew how easy he made Super Saiyan to get with Vegeta's "It's like a SUper Saiyan Bargin sale'' line, and that in Super the rest of the group should act shocked that's there's more Super Saiyans. Even though by this point neither GOku nor Vegeta should be shocked.
Well if Toriyama acknowledges how easy it is to gain Super saiyan and it's become acceptable with cases like Gohan , goten, and trunks, then why is it a huge deal now? Seems like SSJ has been easy to gain for the longest time now.
He's right about what I'm saying. The thing is we know that SSJ is NOT supposed to be this easy. Even by Toriyamas standards. The fact is it would be one thing is universe 6 had SSJ and knew about it, the problem is that you have an entire planet full of these guys who also have the capability and it's even easier then it ever was but no one in universe 6 knows about it. It's never even happened accidentally which is absurd. That's why it's so ridiculous. Someone acknowledging something is absurd is not a license to turn that absurdity up to 100 and expect to dodge criticism.

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Re: Caulifa is a threat to Goku.

Post by Boo Machine » Mon May 29, 2017 6:29 pm

TheMikado wrote:
Boo Machine wrote:
Kanassa wrote: I think he's trying to say that in-universe Toriyama clearly knew how easy he made Super Saiyan to get with Vegeta's "It's like a SUper Saiyan Bargin sale'' line, and that in Super the rest of the group should act shocked that's there's more Super Saiyans. Even though by this point neither GOku nor Vegeta should be shocked.
Well if Toriyama acknowledges how easy it is to gain Super saiyan and it's become acceptable with cases like Gohan , goten, and trunks, then why is it a huge deal now? Seems like SSJ has been easy to gain for the longest time now.
He's right about what I'm saying. The thing is we know that SSJ is NOT supposed to be this easy. Even by Toriyamas standards. The fact is it would be one thing is universe 6 had SSJ and knew about it, the problem is that you have an entire planet full of these guys who also have the capability and it's even easier then it ever was but no one in universe 6 knows about it. It's never even happened accidentally which is absurd. That's why it's so ridiculous. Someone acknowledging something is absurd is not a license to turn that absurdity up to 100 and expect to dodge criticism.
But it did eventually become that easy. Toriyama set those standards with each passing arc. That's the point. It's pretty much every saiyans birthright at this point. People are not wrong in saying that, that probably cheapens the form, but...yeah, SSJ is cheap at this point. It's been cheap since the buu saga and some would argue the Cell saga. Maybe it is a bit absurd that U6 never had an accidental SSJ but then again we don't know the average strength of the Saiyans there. But since Cabba was chosen to represent U6 I feel it's safe to say he is one of the stronger ones if not the strongest one. Strong enough to turn super saiyan and too strong for anyone to challenge him enough to achieve the form through any other means.

Though that's pure guessing on my part so I'll stick with we just don't know the circumstances. Which is why I'm not completely hand waving it away. I know it's weird. You're right in saying it cant dodge criticism. It raises questions about in-universe stuff. In fact I'm pretty sure they mentioned Cauli's potential for the sole purpose of giving her the form easier. But achieving the form itself has gotten so easy that characters learn it off screen. Vegeta is surprised that Cabba didn't already have it when they first met. It may be a bit absurd but it certainly isn't cranking the dial past MAX. At least not yet.
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Re: Caulifa is a threat to Goku.

Post by MagmonKai » Mon May 29, 2017 9:12 pm

Why couldn't the design for caulifla look more like this:
Image


The hips are way more proportionate and she looks more adult like.

Credit to the artist: Salvamakoto

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Re: Caulifa is a threat to Goku.

Post by Doctor. » Tue May 30, 2017 6:10 am

MagmonKai wrote:The hips are way more proportionate and she looks more adult like.
I don't think she's supposed to be an adult, though.

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Re: Caulifa is a threat to Goku.

Post by HybridSaiyan » Tue May 30, 2017 7:56 am

MagmonKai wrote:Why couldn't the design for caulifla look more like this:
Image


The hips are way more proportionate and she looks more adult like.

Credit to the artist: Salvamakoto
That would've been her appearance if Super continued after Z with the old art style.

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Re: Caulifa is a threat to Goku.

Post by MagmonKai » Tue May 30, 2017 8:01 am

I really wished they did. Would have been nice if Cabba also looked more manly. I miss the old art style of DBZ...

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Re: Caulifa is a threat to Goku.

Post by HybridSaiyan » Tue May 30, 2017 8:05 am

MagmonKai wrote:I really wished they did. Would have been nice if Cabba also looked more manly. I miss the old art style of DBZ...
I feel you. Super just looks too cartoony like.
In a perfect world, animate the manga version In Z's style, keeping the blood and battle damage.
It's heartbreaking it'll never happen. </3

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Re: Caulifa is a threat to Goku.

Post by GodKaio-Ken » Tue May 30, 2017 9:29 am

HybridSaiyan wrote:
MagmonKai wrote:I really wished they did. Would have been nice if Cabba also looked more manly. I miss the old art style of DBZ...
I feel you. Super just looks too cartoony like.
In a perfect world, animate the manga version In Z's style, keeping the blood and battle damage.
It's heartbreaking it'll never happen. </3
Eh in your opinion. I think the changes the manga makes are mostly awful but obviously my opinion isnt the end all be all.

Agreed on the style of Euper though.
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Re: Caulifa is a threat to Goku.

Post by Mazingerdestro » Tue May 30, 2017 10:12 am

Even as an ssj2 Caulifla is not a threat to anyone.
Heck even Berserk Kale won't stand a chance against good old Veggie.
However, all the new chibi saiyans will probably (Please Toei DO IT) be utilized for future alliances once Goku decides to travel to other universes.
Also I can't imagine Vegeta watching more people transforming and been angry about it.

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Re: Caulifa is a threat to Goku.

Post by DrakenballP » Tue May 30, 2017 11:41 am

Lord Beerus wrote:
Doctor. wrote:Why is she a threat to Goku specifically? Goku is kind of a joke considering literally every other relevant Saiyan, barring maybe Vegeta, achieves transformations faster and easier than he does.
Mortherfucking this.

There are some many other Saiyans in the series that are really ahead of the curve compared to him in terms of achieving SSJ forms, that I'm surprised there are people that are so up in arms about Caulifla becoming a SSJ and a SSJ2(?) as easily as she did.
You guys aren't aware of the fact Goku was completely unaware of the fact he was a Saiyan and from another planet his entire life and that he had no ideas of the powers he had within.

He learned everything himself, without knowledge of how anything was done or without the assistance of others and then he helped out others in reaching their potential.

Super Saiyan 1 and 2 would be easy for people to reach once one has knowledge of how to reach those levels of power, and being a Saiyan you can very well easily learn to transcend if you're powerful enough
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Re: Caulifa is a threat to Goku.

Post by TheMikado » Tue May 30, 2017 2:24 pm

Boo Machine wrote:
TheMikado wrote:
Boo Machine wrote:
Well if Toriyama acknowledges how easy it is to gain Super saiyan and it's become acceptable with cases like Gohan , goten, and trunks, then why is it a huge deal now? Seems like SSJ has been easy to gain for the longest time now.
He's right about what I'm saying. The thing is we know that SSJ is NOT supposed to be this easy. Even by Toriyamas standards. The fact is it would be one thing is universe 6 had SSJ and knew about it, the problem is that you have an entire planet full of these guys who also have the capability and it's even easier then it ever was but no one in universe 6 knows about it. It's never even happened accidentally which is absurd. That's why it's so ridiculous. Someone acknowledging something is absurd is not a license to turn that absurdity up to 100 and expect to dodge criticism.
But it did eventually become that easy. Toriyama set those standards with each passing arc. That's the point. It's pretty much every saiyans birthright at this point. People are not wrong in saying that, that probably cheapens the form, but...yeah, SSJ is cheap at this point. It's been cheap since the buu saga and some would argue the Cell saga. Maybe it is a bit absurd that U6 never had an accidental SSJ but then again we don't know the average strength of the Saiyans there. But since Cabba was chosen to represent U6 I feel it's safe to say he is one of the stronger ones if not the strongest one. Strong enough to turn super saiyan and too strong for anyone to challenge him enough to achieve the form through any other means.

Though that's pure guessing on my part so I'll stick with we just don't know the circumstances. Which is why I'm not completely hand waving it away. I know it's weird. You're right in saying it cant dodge criticism. It raises questions about in-universe stuff. In fact I'm pretty sure they mentioned Cauli's potential for the sole purpose of giving her the form easier. But achieving the form itself has gotten so easy that characters learn it off screen. Vegeta is surprised that Cabba didn't already have it when they first met. It may be a bit absurd but it certainly isn't cranking the dial past MAX. At least not yet.
The thing is, I was completely pissed by Cabba going SSJ that easily in the first place. He is obviously fairly strong although we have no idea where he ranks among the other saiyans. What we do know is that he was part of some type of universal police force. The idea that no enemy has ever threatened him to extend Vegeta did to push him to SSJ is absurd. But fine, we will ignore that for a second and move on to Caulifra who manages to get it from tingling in her back. It makes the struggles that Vegeta, and Future Trunks did to achieve it seem particularly annoying. Yes we have Goten and Chibi Trunks but like I said, in-universe it was consistently portrayed as outside the norm further they didn't instantly gain the ability to fly or go SSJ2, and even trained but to our knowledge still didnt go SSJ2 individually. But we have what appears to be Caulifra not only learning about SSJ for the first time and doing it, but seeming to have also going SSJ2 in the course of a few hours. It makes you ask what the planet of potentially millions of saiyans have been doing for the past 100 thousand years where they were not able to achieve this to even know it exists in their universe. Its frustrating because the majority of Z revolved around what being a saiyan meant and how they not only had to earn that power but also exceed it through much pain, sweat, and tears. The Caulifra walks onto the scene. Gets her back to go tingly and suddenly she's SSJ and potentially SSJ2 and its supposed to just be taken as "normal".

As I keep saiyan, we are in fan-fiction/DB Heroes territory where every saiyan gets ALL the SSJ forms just because, regardless of whether they earned it or not.

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Re: Caulifa is a threat to Goku.

Post by Boo Machine » Tue May 30, 2017 2:46 pm

TheMikado wrote: The thing is, I was completely pissed by Cabba going SSJ that easily in the first place. He is obviously fairly strong although we have no idea where he ranks among the other saiyans. What we do know is that he was part of some type of universal police force. The idea that no enemy has ever threatened him to extend Vegeta did to push him to SSJ is absurd. But fine, we will ignore that for a second and move on to Caulifra who manages to get it from tingling in her back. It makes the struggles that Vegeta, and Future Trunks did to achieve it seem particularly annoying. Yes we have Goten and Chibi Trunks but like I said, in-universe it was consistently portrayed as outside the norm further they didn't instantly gain the ability to fly or go SSJ2, and even trained but to our knowledge still didnt go SSJ2 individually. But we have what appears to be Caulifra not only learning about SSJ for the first time and doing it, but seeming to have also going SSJ2 in the course of a few hours. It makes you ask what the planet of potentially millions of saiyans have been doing for the past 100 thousand years where they were not able to achieve this to even know it exists in their universe. Its frustrating because the majority of Z revolved around what being a saiyan meant and how they not only had to earn that power but also exceed it through much pain, sweat, and tears. The Caulifra walks onto the scene. Gets her back to go tingly and suddenly she's SSJ and potentially SSJ2 and its supposed to just be taken as "normal".

As I keep saiyan, we are in fan-fiction/DB Heroes territory where every saiyan gets ALL the SSJ forms just because, regardless of whether they earned it or not.
I feel like since Cabba was chosen by vados to represent the Universe 6 team and that he is the leader of the Saiyan defense force, that we can assume Cabba is the strongest Saiyan they have. At the very least one of the stronger ones. It may be a little absurd that no enemy has ever pushed cabba into the form, but there is also the possibility that Cabba is just too strong for many people to challenge him or that he is just really good at his job. But again, those are assumption on my part so feel free to call those the ramblings of a mad man, but I don't feel like they're outlandish things to assume.

Of course it was portrayed outside the norm for Goten and Trunks to get the form at such a young age. Because it has never happened before. But SSJ was outside the norm until Goku. Then Vegeta got it through pure hard work as did trunks. Out of the norm, but it was easier than how goku got it and it became the standard. Gohan then gets taught the form by Goku, which was out of the norm. No one thought you could teach a legendary form to anybody yet it gets taught to Gohan. Then you get to goten and trunks, the former of which doesn't even know how to use his Ki to fly at this point, and they get it off screen, just because. I'm not arguing whether it's ridiculous or not that the form is getting easier and easier to obtain. Because it totally is. But I am saying that the form HAS gotten easier and easier to obtain and it HAS flown in the face of Goku and maybe vegeta long before Super was even a thing.

In fact I'd argue that Cabba got his in a much harder way than goten or trunks. At least he felt threatened. It is odd millions of Saiyans haven't popped into the form before but since Cabba is, again, at least one of the stronger saiyans, it's not out of the realm of possibility that the other saiyans aren't strong enough. But again, ramblings of a madman with not enough information to make such a claim confidently. Caulifla did it easy because of her potential. It's a very cheap and arguably lame explanation, and probably used just to give her the form easily. But it is an explanation. It's not like we have a large group of scrub Saiyans sneezing into the form like they're Launch. Though if I were being honest I wouldn't be surprised if that happened and, depending on how it was done, I may or may not be ok with that.
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Re: Caulifa is a threat to Goku.

Post by Saturnine » Tue May 30, 2017 4:28 pm

Well one's got to consider that she's already as strong as Goku in base, so going SSj2 so shortly after unlocking SSj doesn't come across as so much of a shock, because the power behind it has been there all along. Goku and Gohan had to strengthen themselves first, and we know they had a long way to go.

Base Cabba was said to = Base Vegeta (non godly), and Caulifla is above that, so factoring in Goku and Vegeta's growth since that moment, I say she might be on par with them. It really doesn't make her SSj2 as impressive as you guys are making it out to be.

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Re: Caulifa is a threat to Goku.

Post by perucho1990 » Tue May 30, 2017 5:40 pm

Caulifla would only be a threat to Goku if the whole prodigy stuff makes her someone like Medoka, Erza, etc. :problem:

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