Is Dragon Ball Super really "Super"?

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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dbgtFO
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Re: Is Dragon Ball Super really "Super"?

Post by dbgtFO » Tue Jul 18, 2017 4:30 pm

Dragon Ball Gus wrote:On it's own merits, is Dragon Ball Super really all that "Super"? Take off your DBZ nostalgia glasses and look at this series as it's own thing, tell me if it's "Super".
I find that quite difficult..
I will always compare it with DBZ, because that's why I'm here and why I even watch Super in the first place.
As for my thoughts.. Dragon Ball Super does what it is set out to and that is to be a television show and to a lesser extent a monthly manga, that bring so much joy to kids all over the world, that they will nag their parents to spend some money on the franchise's merchandise.
We can tell by the massive improvement in sales over the last couple of years, that it has been quite succesful in that regard and so for those in charge it's definitely Super.
For me as a fan, however it's merely good.

I'm glad they didn't go full on DB Heroes and just made new characters to replace the old ones, cause then I'd definitely be out, just like I eventually dropped Digimon and Yugioh, because I didn't care for the new characters. Goku and co. are DB to me, so as long as they are around, there is more likelihood, I too will stick around to see their adventures.
My biggest problem with it is the fact, that it's so merchandise driven, that the narrative takes a hit, episode 98 being a recent example:
"Goku is not going Blue, because he wants to save his stamina"
Me: Ok, that makes sense, can't expect Blue every episo-*fast forward to end of the episode, where Vegeta and Goku go absolutely overkill, when eliminating the Trio, instead of just staying in SS, which was already stomping them*
...
Toei has always done this, an amazing spectacle to distract you from the fact, that what you are seeing is non-sensical(and also why their power scaling is out of whack and characters are more capable of giving fights to other characters, that should be out of their league).
At least some people admitted, that was the case, but they still enjoyed it, because it was cool, which seems to be exactly the reaction they want you to have.

A big plus for Super though is that Toriyama now gets to plan out the entire arc in advance and he also gets input from others and the end result is new exciting stories, that go a bit differently than before, the Future Trunks Arc ending on quite the bittersweet note with Trunks' timeline utterly destroyed and having to go to a copy with duplicates of himself and Mai.
Furthermore the stories now have an overarching theme of the gods' involvement in Goku and co.'s lives, the Future Trunks arc having a god deride humans for always repeating the mistakes of the past and so justify that they don't deserve life, which is pretty thoughtful.
And then it has culminated in this massive tournament between all universes, where survival is the prize, as the lower beings are forced to fight it out, as amusement for the one above all, who without a thought just wipes out entire universes and don't even know, why that would upset them, which really shows how small we really are.

So all in all, it's a good show, but for me it's not quite Super.

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Re: Is Dragon Ball Super really "Super"?

Post by FortuneSSJ » Tue Jul 18, 2017 4:34 pm

From business point of view, Bandai and Toei will just laugh at you if you say it isn't. The rest is subjective.
A world without Dragon Ball is just meh.

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Re: Is Dragon Ball Super really "Super"?

Post by Kanassa » Tue Jul 18, 2017 4:35 pm

Low Tone G wrote:
Kanassa wrote:
Low Tone G wrote:I personally find it good someone dared to bring this thread up...
Dared? What, do you think someone asking "Do you like Super?" is some tabo subject?
Actually, I'd sense this thread is not that simple as whether you like it or not...
In my view, it can be raised the question that the title should suggest some reasons to believe that the series was meant to be upgraded in some form or shape.

For example:
1. Stakes like never before
2. More mature content
3. Even deeper message

Maybe the stakes have been raised a bit, but we must witness the show's devolution in other aspects. In my humble opinion, at least.
Again, this is a subject that's been talked to high hell. So, describing this thread as daring just seems laughable to me.
When Super apparently shoves Goku down our throats:

Kanassa wrote:
FoolsGil wrote:I hope Mark is dead. But chances are the dragonballs will bring his stupid ass back. :D
- FoolsGil, Out of Context, 2017

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Re: Is Dragon Ball Super really "Super"?

Post by precita » Tue Jul 18, 2017 4:37 pm

Super has been consistently good for a while now. I get the feeling that no matter what happens in Super, even if it goes on for 200 episodes or more, you'll still see people claiming it's bad or will never be redeemed no matter what happens in it.

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Re: Is Dragon Ball Super really "Super"?

Post by Kanassa » Tue Jul 18, 2017 4:45 pm

precita wrote:Super has been consistently good for a while now. I get the feeling that no matter what happens in Super, even if it goes on for 200 episodes or more, you'll still see people claiming it's bad or will never be redeemed no matter what happens in it.
Or claiming that each episode is the straw that will break a hundred camels back.
When Super apparently shoves Goku down our throats:

Kanassa wrote:
FoolsGil wrote:I hope Mark is dead. But chances are the dragonballs will bring his stupid ass back. :D
- FoolsGil, Out of Context, 2017

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Re: Is Dragon Ball Super really "Super"?

Post by dbgtFO » Tue Jul 18, 2017 4:50 pm

Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Super has been consistently good for a while now. I get the feeling that no matter what happens in Super, even if it goes on for 200 episodes or more, you'll still see people claiming it's bad or will never be redeemed no matter what happens in it.
Or claiming that each episode is the straw that will break a hundred camels back.
Damn, that record still hasn't been fixed yet?
... :P

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Re: Is Dragon Ball Super really "Super"?

Post by sintzu » Tue Jul 18, 2017 4:53 pm

NO.

It has its moments but overall its a mediocre show. We're 100 episodes in and it's still hit and miss on every level.
July 9th 2018 will be remembered as the day Broly became canon.

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Re: Is Dragon Ball Super really "Super"?

Post by Yomi » Tue Jul 18, 2017 5:00 pm

Akyon wrote: Bergamo is another excellent example of creativity in powers that make Super somewhat more enjoyable for me personally than late Z. Hit's time skip is another.
Maybe One Piece spoilt me with the creative abilities, but looking back at Z, the show was generally pretty awful at coming up with unique abilities outside of Piccolo, Buu and maybe Gotenks.

Before the universe 6 arc started. I remember saying that I wanted unique powers and abilities; and how boring Dragon Ball fights have become and how everything is just about power levels and who's stronger than who.

I'm glad that each new character comes with a "gimmick" (for lack of a better word).
Even in universe 9, every fighter (besides the bunny girl) had unique powers. I'm sure Jiren will have special abilities of his own as well.
Saikyo no Senshi wrote: I don't consider the franchise as a whole even during its original run anything more than mediocre, but DBS can't even be that.
Why would you watch 500 episodes of below mediocre. Then watch 99 episodes of pure trash?
What's the point if you don't enjoy it. I never understood this mentality of torturing yourself.
Last edited by Yomi on Tue Jul 18, 2017 5:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is Dragon Ball Super really "Super"?

Post by Zagacious » Tue Jul 18, 2017 5:06 pm

Overall, it's becoming better than DBZ, but it still has some major issues and it took a long time to get there. They are better than DBZ in some aspects, but far worse in others.

Some things I think it has done better than DBZ:
+++

More Character diversity
-DBZ Started off being extremely diverse and slowly got less and less interesting character-wise later in the series. Although Babidi, Dabura, and Buu were all interesting to me they weren't explored that much.
Gods and Universe Lore
-The Kais and Otherworld were an interesting concept in DBZ that was never explored fully
Making older cast useful (or at least attempting to even though it's mostly failed)
-It got kind of annoying in DBZ how the humans were always around but never really helped with anything post-Saiyan saga. I mean I know they're trying to help but they really weren't except for Tien that one time against Cell.
Improving Over Time
-This one is big, although to me DBZ was great for a majority of the series, DBS started kind of rough and has drastically improved since then. DBZ kind of stagnated in the Buu saga like they were running out of ideas


Some things it has done worse or are just general problems:
---

Padding - Some arcs are majorly padded, and I'm not talking about the good kind of padded where a fight lasts 10 episodes, but the kind where there's literally nothing happening to extend a tiny amount of content into 20 minutes. A large % of the Black Goku arc there was literally nothing happening, I thought I was exaggerating when I first stated this a few months ago, but after rewatching it is pretty bad how much time is wasted doing nothing.
Relative Power - I find it far more difficult than ever before to estimate how strong someone is or how strong they are relative to other fighters
Unexplained Things and Inconsistencies - Some huge aspects are either inconsistent or just not explained at all. Usually when something extraordinary happened in DBZ, we'd at least an explanation an episode or two later, well I'm still waiting.
Animation Quality All over the Place - I never really complain about animation, it rarely bothers me, except it feels like the quality ranges from absolutely terrible to being some of the best in the franchise, and It wouldn't bother me but it's kind of jarring how one episode from the next can look totally different
Inconsistent Character Behavior - This one is kind of minor, but I have noticed sometimes characters will act differently one episode than they do the next. One episode they will be acting totally themselves, and another they'll do or say whatever needs to be said to speed up the plot or w/e. Example is when Goku revived Frieza, Frieza said something like "I suppose there won't be allowed killing in this tournament" when Goku hasn't even explained that fact yet, is very strange.

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Re: Is Dragon Ball Super really "Super"?

Post by PeanutSaiyan » Tue Jul 18, 2017 6:15 pm

FortuneSSJ wrote:From business point of view, Bandai and Toei will just laugh at you if you say it isn't. The rest is subjective.
That is the biggest myth on these forums and it's getting quite tiresome.

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Re: Is Dragon Ball Super really "Super"?

Post by precita » Tue Jul 18, 2017 7:18 pm

What myth? Toei/Bandai officially release reports of how much money they make annually each year on their properties. Dragonball is selling better now than in the last decade.

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Re: Is Dragon Ball Super really "Super"?

Post by PeanutSaiyan » Tue Jul 18, 2017 7:28 pm

precita wrote:What myth? Toei/Bandai officially release reports of how much money they make annually each year on their properties. Dragonball is selling better now than in the last decade.
I'm talking about how the rest is "subjective". It's not and never will be.

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Re: Is Dragon Ball Super really "Super"?

Post by Kanassa » Tue Jul 18, 2017 7:29 pm

PeanutSaiyan wrote:
precita wrote:What myth? Toei/Bandai officially release reports of how much money they make annually each year on their properties. Dragonball is selling better now than in the last decade.
I'm talking about how the rest is "subjective". It's not and never will be.
Yeah, turns out that what people find entertaining isn't a subjective thing, because everyone's a hive-mind.
When Super apparently shoves Goku down our throats:

Kanassa wrote:
FoolsGil wrote:I hope Mark is dead. But chances are the dragonballs will bring his stupid ass back. :D
- FoolsGil, Out of Context, 2017

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Re: Is Dragon Ball Super really "Super"?

Post by PeanutSaiyan » Tue Jul 18, 2017 7:32 pm

Kanassa wrote:
PeanutSaiyan wrote:
precita wrote:What myth? Toei/Bandai officially release reports of how much money they make annually each year on their properties. Dragonball is selling better now than in the last decade.
I'm talking about how the rest is "subjective". It's not and never will be.
Yeah, turns out that what people find entertaining isn't a subjective thing, because everyone's a hive-mind.
I am not and never talked about what people find entertaining.

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Re: Is Dragon Ball Super really "Super"?

Post by aravinthan » Tue Jul 18, 2017 7:47 pm

For the ones who argue about DbS being Super or DBs being Dragon Ball BS, DBOK, DB average, I used to watch Dbz in Cartoon Network and DB in Gogoanime. I never had any excitement nor hype to wait for next episode. It was actually there, which I just need to watch. The community wasnt that much active. I wasn't born at the time when it was first telecasted.
After I had BoG, RF and DBs I was actually :o. Akira is also not satisfied with Toei. Anyhow we are having some canon Db stuff. DBGt had adventure, DB stuff but a donkey can never become A Horse. It is non canon to me.

For me, it is not about DBS being Super or Not. It is being DB, thats all I'm happy and statisfied with thar.

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Re: Is Dragon Ball Super really "Super"?

Post by KingKaash » Tue Jul 18, 2017 10:22 pm

Everyone is fighting for the Super Dragon Balls so yes the name is apt
"Gohan, let it go. It is not a sin to fight for the right cause. There are those who words alone will not reach. Cell is such a being. I know how you feel Gohan, you are gentle, you do not like to hurt. I know because I too have learned these feelings. But it is because you cherish life that you must protect it. Please drop your restraints. Protect the life I once loved. You have the strength, my scanners sensed it..." -Android 16

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Re: Is Dragon Ball Super really "Super"?

Post by Saikyo no Senshi » Wed Jul 19, 2017 12:50 am

Yomi wrote:Why would you watch 500 episodes of below mediocre. Then watch 99 episodes of pure trash?
What's the point if you don't enjoy it. I never understood this mentality of torturing yourself.
Because I like to form my own opinions and informed ones. Informed opinions can only be formed after I watch it. That's how critics work. And, there's nothing wrong with liking or enjoying some moments in a mediocre franchise. Batman and Robin was garbage, but I still had a fun time when I watched it for the first time as a kid.

DBS is trash, but I have my areas of interest. The staff, production details and my fondness for the original voice cast still keep me from dropping the show. Although, I'm not nearly as much as of a regular viewer anymore, but yeah even people who find the show bad as a whole can still find something interesting in it.

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Re: Is Dragon Ball Super really "Super"?

Post by Bullza » Wed Jul 19, 2017 1:56 am

The show is fine, in truth it's a perfectly adequate anime that is not brilliant or awful. It is of course the kind of anime and franchise that people will always overreact to and go way too overboard with their opinions on it.

Compared to other shows in the series it's​ on a comparable level. It does some thing better and worse than Dragon Ball Z.

Personally I think it's a good show

- It's funny at times
- It's entertaining most of the time
- It's story and it's concepts are mostly interesting
- The pacing is pretty decent
- It's brought back several forgotten characters
- Characters who had become background characters now have something more to do
- There's more to the fights now because there's more emphasis on unique abilities and strategy
- There's some highlight animated moments

Like everything it has problems and could be better but at the same time it could have been so much worse especially as it's not based on a manga but probably vague plot points and most of what is written and shown is coming from Toei and not Toriyama.

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Re: Is Dragon Ball Super really "Super"?

Post by Overlord78 » Wed Jul 19, 2017 2:12 am

Not even close to being "Super". Dragon Ball in general is a pretty mediocre franchise (read One Piece or HxH if you want a good shounen series) but I consider Super to be absolute trash alongside GT.

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Re: Is Dragon Ball Super really "Super"?

Post by precita » Wed Jul 19, 2017 2:15 am

Overlord78 wrote:Not even close to being "Super". Dragon Ball in general is a pretty mediocre franchise (read One Piece or HxH if you want a good shounen series) but I consider Super to be absolute trash alongside GT.
What makes it absolute trash? The way you people talk as if Super has destroyed the franchise or something. The show obviously has it's flaws, but complete trash?

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