Getting rid of transformations really does seem to not sit well with Toei

[HeroR]

Right.. Cabba was THAT strong where he could fight on par with a Godly powered Base Vegeta, without even being able to turn into a mere SSJ1. That's just bad writing.

"That's just bad writing", plot points I don't like. Another canned word that has lost all meaning.

Why is it 'bad writing'? The U6 Saiyans have a different history and evolution from the U7 Saiyans. So why would the follow the exact same power scale? And again, Goku and Vegeta base form never had god ki. Vegeta got Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan by just training and match Goku in six months. We also saw parts of Whis' training and it wasn't anything special. Vegeta even told Cabba that he can train for Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, no angel needed.

Also, Cabba didn't go Super Saiyan not because he couldn't. He didn't know it existed.

[Grimlock]

According to Toriyama back in 2013, Goku was just going to use Ssj1 moving forward so you can thank Bandai and Toei for that not happening.

You hit the point, that's 2013 Toriyama.

Also, I can't just thank both of them. I thank Toriyama as well. Goku and Vegeta use Super Saiyan 2, the former the Super Saiyan 3 form as well, in the Dragon Ball Super manga too. We just have to wait and see if Toyotaro will also treat Ultimate as a transformation, and if all the other forms (new ones and returning ones) we've been seeing appear in the manga.

[HeroR]

According to Toriyama back in 2013, Goku was just going to use Ssj1 moving forward so you can thank Bandai and Toei for that not happening.

You hit the point, that's 2013 Toriyama.

Also, I can't just thank both of them. I thank Toriyama as well. Goku and Vegeta use Super Saiyan 2 post-2013 in the manga too. We just have to wait and see if Toyotaro will also treat Ultimate as a transformation, and if all the other forms (new ones and returning ones) we've been seeing appear in the manga.

Toriyama said that Goku 'may' not used Super Saiyan 2 and 3 again, not never. And why are you blaming Bandai and Toei for something happening when Toriyama has shown he's able to do what he wants. He wanted Goku to used Super Saiyan 2 and 3 again. No one at Bandai and Toei forced his hand or twisted his arm into it.

[Grimlock]

Please read all the conversation carefully for fully understanding. I did not blame Toei and Bandai at all.

[HeroR]

Please read all the conversation carefully for fully understanding. I did not blame Toei and Bandai at all.

I was mostly talking about sintzu, who tends to blame Toei and Bandai for almost everything he doesn't like about about Super.

[Grimlock]

Then you should quote him, not me.

[HeroR]

Then you should quote him, not me.

I quoted you for this, "You hit the point, that's 2013 Toriyama".

While true, the exact quote never stated that Goku would never used Super Saiyan 2 or 3 again. Only that he may not used them, which fans tend to miss.

Since I didn't want to double quote, I just lump your posts together since I wanted to respond to both of your statements.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

Sigh. The old forms WERE NOT GONE quote from Toriyama:

Super Saiyan 2 and 3 are nothing more than powered-up variations of Super Saiyan. After the fight with Beerus, Goku realized that mastering his normal state and Super Saiyan would raise his level more and sap less strength, so I think he probably won’t become Super Saiyan 2 or 3 any more.

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/ ... mysteries/

Key words "think", "probably"

Definition of "think":
"have a particular belief or idea.
"she thought that nothing would be the same again"
synonyms: believe, be of the opinion, have as one's opinion, be of the view, be under the impression;"

Definition of probably:
"in all likelihood; very likely:
He will probably attend."

In other words not 100% exact fact that people believe and furthermore no OFFICIAL material EVER stated that old forms were gone, even if Toriyama did 100% say so it's not official in official material but random comments made by the author, so it wouldn't have meant much anyway. Fans simply made shit up in their heads that. Is. All.

[sintzu]

Sintzu tends to blame Toei and Bandai for almost everything he doesn't like about about Super.

That's because Toriyama isn't the only one calling the shots as he said that the Zamasu arc was based on a suggestion from the editorial office. This is not the manga's days where they'd work with what his story provided them, now he has other parties to answer to and if he doesn't then they'll simply move on without him.

BOG was being made without him and no one had any plans of him taking over the way he did so we know for a fact that DB was going to be revived one way or another.

[HeroR]

That's because Toriyama isn't the only one calling the shots as he said that the Zamasu arc was based on a suggestion from the editorial office. This is not the manga's days where they'd work with what his story provided them, now he has other parties to answer to and if he doesn't then they'll simply move on without him.

BOG was being made without him and no one had any plans of him taking over the way he did so we know for a fact that DB was going to be revived one way or another.

It's his story. If he didn't wasn't Goku or Vegeta never to used the golden Super Saiyan forms again, they wouldn't. It's as simple as that. Toei or the Dragon Ball room could used it in their stuff, but not Super.

Also, we don't even know what the suggest was for the Future Trunks Saga. As far as we know, the editorial office asked could they bring Trunks back and Toriyama did the rest. It's no different than the Android/Cell Saga that has a documenented case of meddling by the editors, yet it was still Toriyama's story.

Battle of Gods would also been no more canon or impactful than the original 13 movie Toei made. Toriyama is the one who wrote Battle of Gods to fit his manga. There's no evidence to support that Toei's version of Battle of Gods would have revived the franchise. Also, Toei and others begged Toriyama for years to come back to Dragon Ball and he said no. That's how we got Heroes and Kai. On top of that, Battle of Gods, Resurrection 'F', and Super are successful because they have Toriyama's name on them. They're not just going to 'move on without him' if he doesn't do what they want because if that was the case, they wouldn't begged Toriyama to come back to begin with.

[sintzu]

Battle of Gods, Resurrection 'F', and Super are successful because they have Toriyama's name on them.

They're not just going to 'move on without him' if he doesn't do what they want because if that was the case, they wouldn't begged Toriyama to come back to begin with.

Yes, Toriyama's name and involvment are why they're as successful and good as they are but that doesn't change the fact that Toriyama isn't working alone like before. Kale is a great example where you can tell that Bandai and Toei have a major role in decideing the show's content. In terms of the Cell arc, his ex-editor just didn't like what he was doing and Toriyama listened to him and came up with new things on his own, that's completely different from what's happening now.

I don't mean move on as in not work with him anymore, just that they'll do what they want if he won't. If he refused to bring back Trunks or write an evil Goku then I think they would've done it on their own as a movie or an arc in-between his.

[HeroR]

Yes, Toriyama's name and involvment are why they're as successful and good as they are but that doesn't change the fact that Toriyama isn't working alone like before. Kale is a great example where you can tell that Bandai and Toei have a major role in decideing the show's content.

I don't mean move on as in not work with him anymore, just that they'll do what they want if he won't. If he refused to bring back Trunks or write an evil Goku then I think they would've done it on their own as a movie or an arc in-between his.

Unless you have a source, that's your guesswork, not a fact. If it was up to Toei and Bandai, they would just use Broly. Why bother with a new character? Female Saiyan? Have that with Cali.

Based on? You have no evidence of any of this and they can easily get what they want from Heroes or spin-offs from the Dragon Ball Room, or they other games like Xenoverse. Nothing says it all have to be in Super.

And Bandai bought back Trunks years ago. He called Time Patrol Trunks. Evil Goku, Toei could have done that themselves decades ago since Black wasn't even a true evil Goku.

[sintzu]

Unless you have a source, that's your guesswork, not a fact.

Based on ? Nothing says it all have to be in Super.

Evil Goku, Toei could have done that themselves decades ago since Black wasn't even a true evil Goku.

Some things are just obvious.

It's the best way to promote them and give them ground to stand on. Black being an anime character gives him a lot more weight then he'd have had he been a game only character.

Like the above, him being part of a Toriyama story gives him more ground to stand on. Look at Android 21, would she be getting this much attention had she not been created by Toriyama ?

[HeroR]

Some things are just obvious.

It's the best way to promote them and give them ground to stand on. Black being an anime character gives him a lot more weight then he'd have had he been a game only character.

Like the above, him being part of a Toriyama story gives him more ground to stand on. Look at Android 21, would she be getting this much attention had she not been created by Toriyama ?

More like you assuming and passing the assumption as a fact.

Time Patrol Trunks have been around for years and is extremely popular despite only being in games. Trunks didn't need to come back in Super to promote him. The same with any version of 'evil Goku' Toei decides to make because it's Goku. Toei would also most likely make an evil Goku an actual evil Goku instead of a body swap.

Probably not, but the same can be said about Mira and Towa. Besides, Toriyama could have just as easily design 'evil Goku' for a game instead of putting him in Super. And this is all assuming if the request was even Toei or someone asking Toriyama to bring back Trunks or have an evil Goku since we're again assuming that was the request.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

Sintzu tends to blame Toei and Bandai for almost everything he doesn't like about about Super.

That's because Toriyama isn't the only one calling the shots as he said that the Zamasu arc was based on a suggestion from the editorial office. This is not the manga's days where they'd work with what his story provided them, now he has other parties to answer to and if he doesn't then they'll simply move on without him.

BOG was being made without him and no one had any plans of him taking over the way he did so we know for a fact that DB was going to be revived one way or another.

Again this quote about the Black arc get's over analysed too much, there is no information there, we do not know what the suggestion was we don't know how little it was or how big it was, furthermore Toriyama described it as a "suggestion" in other words he wasn't forced to write the arc based on what they said, they suggested something and he liked it enough to make an arc out of it. That. Is all.

This vague quotes blow up for absolutely no reason at all.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Blue was never supposed to replace the regular ssj forms.

Except, as others have pointed out, it was never once said that Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan replaced Super Saiyan. That was just what fans assumed because Goku didn't used Super Saiyan in Resurrection 'F' and base form Goku was so strong. Fans were wrong, it happens. Being mad because your theories didn't work out is just bitter.

Nope, you guys are wrong. Regular Super Saiyan & Super Saiyan God became useless in BoG by the power of SSG in base, and then it became useful again by evolving regular into Super Saiyan Blue through training, which didn't have any drawbacks back then just like regular Super Saiyan. It didn't even have a new name in-universe, it was still Super Saiyan except that of "a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God". Vegeta even called it the "legendary Super Saiyan" in the movie, and the only name we had was "Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan", which only existed for merchandise reasons.

It was when Super became a thing that it was retconned into a form beyond Super Saiyan (Vegeta now calls it a form beyond Super Saiyan instead of the legendary Super Saiyan in FnF arc) with its own drawbacks (mostly in the manga, but in the anime too), and the base form with God power disappeared to bring SS/2/3/God back, because obviously they couldn't make a series where Goku & Vegeta were at god level in just their base forms.

[Kataphrut]

They seem to be hearkening back to the Cell saga where there was a lot of overlap between what transformations people had, but everyone had a form that was uniquely theirs. Usually, it would be the highest they could go. So in the Cell saga, Vegeta was defined by Grade 2, Trunks Grade 3, Goku Full Power and Gohan Super Saiyan 2. Now it's similar, but there are a lot more transformations that are unique.

We have Kaioken Blue/God/"New Transformation Name Pending" Goku, Rose Black, Rage Trunks, Ultimate Gohan and Beserker Kale. Vegeta, Cabba and Caulfila are the only ones who don't have anything "exclusive" to them, but they each have a different upper level (Blue, SSJ1 and SSJ2 respectively). If all of these Saiyans fought each other at their fullest power, each one would be using a different form.

And most of the time Goku or Vegeta use their older forms is to demonstrate something to the young bucks. I'm trying to remember the last time either of them used Super Saiyan 2 for something other than sparring. In serious fights, they just go from black to yellow to blue as needed.

[HeroR]

Nope, you guys are wrong. Regular Super Saiyan & Super Saiyan God became useless in BoG by the power of SSG in base, and then it became useful again by evolving regular into Super Saiyan Blue through training, which didn't have any drawbacks back then just like regular Super Saiyan. It didn't even have a new name in-universe, it was still Super Saiyan except that of "a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God". Vegeta even called it the "legendary Super Saiyan" in the movie, and the only name we had was "Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan", which only existed for merchandise reasons.

It was when Super became a thing that it was retconned into a form beyond Super Saiyan (Vegeta now calls it a form beyond Super Saiyan instead of the legendary Super Saiyan in FnF arc) with its own drawbacks (mostly in the manga, but in the anime too), and the base form with God power disappeared to bring SS/2/3/God back, because obviously they couldn't make a series where Goku & Vegeta were at god level in just their base forms.

Except the part when Goku went Super Saiyan even after he absorbed Super Saiyan God. It was also never said anywhere that Super Saiyan become useless, only to become useful again with Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan. If so, show me the source. Toriyama only ever said that Super Saiyan God wasn't useful anymore. Finally, Vegeta did not called it 'legendary Super Saiyan'.

[Faisal Shourov]

Sometimes it feels like I'm watching a commercial.

>*Frieza goes Golden*
>Frost: Amazing!

>*Frieza does something evil*
>Somebody: "That dastardly Frieza sure is as evil as ever!"

>*Goku transforms into anything*
> Caulifa: "Amazing. Can you teach me?"

>*Jiren stands silently*
> Somebody: "Jiren must be super strong. I wonder how strong Jiren is. Jiren sure is mysterious."

Everything is so on the nose, as though they think their audience is brain damaged. Transformations being shoe-horned everywhere is a part of this.

LMAO hahahaha

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Except the part when Goku went Super Saiyan even after he absorbed Super Saiyan God. It was also never said anywhere that Super Saiyan become useless, only to become useful again with Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan. If so, show me the source. Toriyama only ever said that Super Saiyan God wasn't useful anymore.

My source is the movie & Toriyama. He became a Super Saiyan God, but it didn't increase his power according to Toriyama. Base Goku was as strong as Super Saiyan God, and Super Saiyan didn't make him stronger. Beerus said that Goku kept the power & didn't get much weaker after the SSG form disappeared, not that he obtained again the power by becoming a Super Saiyan, and if you pay attention to the fight, base Goku kept fighting exactly as well as he did in his SSG form. SS Goku fought better because he was angry, not because he was stronger. Toriyama even said in his interview that after his fight with Beerus, Goku would train to master his already mastered Super Saiyan form instead of using SS2 & SS3 and trying to go beyond them, forshadowing Super Saiyan Blue.

Finally, Vegeta did not called it 'legendary Super Saiyan'.

Yes he did, and even Toriyama called it Super Saiyan. Here is the script from Toriyama:

With a “Boom!” he transforms into a Super Saiyan. But if you look closely, his hair and aura are both light blue. Even Freeza’s a bit flustered at Goku’s aura.

Freeza: “Guuh…!”
Goku: “Do you like it?”
Freeza: “…So, you’ve become a Super Saiyan after all…”
Goku: “Hehehe…Actually, this here’s a bit different. It’s tough to explain, but I’m a Super Saiyan who’s a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God.”
Freeza: “Good, then I made the right choice when I opted to challenge myself with a further evolution, just to be on the safe side. Otherwise I might have been in trouble…”
Goku: “Cut the talk and just transform already.”
__________________________________
Vegeta transforms into the same light blue Super Saiyan as Goku. Freeza’s astonished.

Vegeta: “Oh yeah, guess you didn’t know, but I can also become a legendary Super Saiyan.”